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William
most recent 20 APR 16 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 6 AUG 06 by Anonymous-797
Are there other antique climbing/rambling roses that are thornless?  We have Zephirine Drouhin.
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Reply #1 of 23 posted 8 AUG 06 by William
The only antique climber that even comes close that I am aware of is Mermaid.  It has Sharp thorns but very few.
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Reply #6 of 23 posted 11 AUG 06 by Anonymous-105318
Our Mermaid was full of thorns.
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Reply #2 of 23 posted 9 AUG 06 by desert dweller
I've just bought a rambler called Ghislaine de Feligonde (yellow fading to white) which is nearly thornless.   It was bred in 1916.
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Reply #3 of 23 posted 9 AUG 06 by Rupert, Kim L.
Mermaid can, in NO way, be considered "lightly prickled"! They are LARGE, hooked and VERY SHARP! It's a wonderful rose and I adore it, but to even suggest it should be considered similar to a rose such as Zephirine is a great dis service to anyone making use of the misinformation. Mermaid can easily be used as living barbed wire. My place of employment has it enveloping wrought iron fencing. No one in their right mind would EVER attempt to breach that barrier! I've tried shredding Mermaid canes in a ten horse power shredder, years ago when I was much less careful than I've become with time. That was a MISTAKE! They would not shred, but began whipping around like heavily spiked tenticals of a giant squid, hooking me, shredding my clothes and literally attempting to pull me into the shredder! Mermaid is a great rose, but definitely one I would NEVER suggest growing anywhere it can "bite" anyone. Kim Rupert
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Reply #4 of 23 posted 9 AUG 06 by William

Kim,


My only intention was to give an alternate since I know of no other antique climber this is completely thornless.  I do realize that it has SHARP thorns but in my encounters it hasn't had that many.


William

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Reply #5 of 23 posted 10 AUG 06 by Anonymous-97434

There are a few of the Boursault Roses still around, and they are mostly thornless.


http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=813


Their main drawback is they are once blooming.

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Reply #7 of 23 posted 30 AUG 06 by Jeri Jennings
Kim is correct!  'WARE 'Mermaid'!!!  It is HEAVILY covered with vicious thorns.Thornless Climbing OGR's???  I'm not aware of any others -- but you CAN grow 'Reine des Violettes' as a low climber -- at least you can in warm climates.  And it is virtually thornless.Be careful, however!  MANY incorrect roses are sold under the name 'Reine des Violettes!!!  This is a rose which I would ONLY purchase from a legitimate specialist grower.  I have seen too many "wrong-uns."  Jeri JenningsCoastal Ventura County, Southern California
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Reply #8 of 23 posted 28 SEP 06 by Unregistered Guest
There is a rose called Martha which is a sport of Zepherine D (I think) that I bought about a year or two ago from Ashdown Roses.   It hasn't bloomed as well for me as Zepherine does but I am still hopeful.  It is nearly thornless and has grown well--I have it interwoven on a fence.  It's a lighter pink with a light fragrance.   Sorry I don't have a photo to send you.
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Reply #9 of 23 posted 28 SEP 06 by polliewogg
And there is another sport of Zephirine called Kathleen Harrop which is a lighter pink than Martha.  Both are available from Vintage Gardens and there are pictures. 
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Reply #10 of 23 posted 28 SEP 06 by Jeri Jennings
I should mention here that Zephirine Drouhan can have powdery mildew problems in areas where that is a problem.  Of course, there are many areas where mildew isn't a big deal -- it's a huge issue where I live. 

Jeri Jennings
Coastal Couthern California
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Reply #15 of 23 posted 16 MAR 07 by William
I talked with a microbiologist about black spot and she told me to try coarse ground corn meal. She said by accident she found it to kill the fungus in the ground. Sprinkle liberally as it will not harm the roses. If this works it will indeed be a find for natural remedies.
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Reply #11 of 23 posted 28 SEP 06 by Lulu

Try Climbing Pinkie or Climbing China Doll. These are not heritage roses but are both virtually thornless polyanther type climbers which can be bent easily so make excellent climbers for arbors, gates and verandah posts where prickles are dangerous. Both are pink and very floriferous blooming from spring till late autumn {fall}.  I particularly love China Doll and it will strike quite readily if you want more.


Lulu

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Reply #12 of 23 posted 11 MAR 07 by Ozarksroselady
I have a Madame Plantier (introduced in 1835). The blooms are white with a tiny green eye at the middle of the center button & have heavenly old-rose fragrance. She is nearly thornless, extremely cold-hardy/drough tolerant & disease-free. I have seen her growing as a graceful, bowing mound, but mine is growing up on a trellis and has canes approx. 12' long. She blooms once, in mid-May here in southern Missouri. See Claire Martin's book 100 Old Roses for the American Garden, p.192-193 for picture & history.
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Reply #13 of 23 posted 11 MAR 07 by Jeri Jennings
I've seen Mme. Plantier used as a low climber along a picket fence, in a garden in an old Gold Rush town. This wasn't a deserted garden, but a lovely and well-tended one, and I really wanted to ask the lady there about her roses. She was working in her garden when we passed, and must be the only person I've ever met who did not respond favorably to: "Your roses are lovely." :-(

Jeri
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Reply #23 of 23 posted 20 APR 16 by GeorgeZ
I've got a Mme. Plantier in my garden for the taking. Any takers?
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Reply #14 of 23 posted 11 MAR 07 by Ozarksroselady
I thought of another rose that might suit your needs....along with my Madame Plantier, I have growing a Cardinal de Richelieu (introduced 1840)...see Claire Martin's 100 Old Garden Roses for the American Garden, p.106-107. Martin's picture doesn't do the color justice...mine is the most intense deep grape-purple imaginable! The fragrance is of strong, old rose attar. Canes are nearly thornless. Again, mine is growing approx. 12' tall on a trellis--along with the white Mdm. Plantier. Together, they are breath-taking!
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Reply #16 of 23 posted 16 MAR 07 by Jeri Jennings
Again, the lovely Cardinal de Richelieu is a rose that needs some chill hours. I wish I could grow it in my part of coastal Southern California, but I cannot. :-(

Jeri Jennings
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Reply #17 of 23 posted 16 MAR 07 by jedmar
Climbers which are thornless or with few thorns are mostly Multifloras or Noisettes, e.g. Aimée Vibert, Crépuscule, Donau, Emerick-Rose, Euphrosyne, Fortune's Double Yellow, Ghislaine de Feligonde, Lamarque, Madeleine Seltzer, Maria Lisa, Mme Alfred Carriere, Regierungsrat Rottenberger, Tausendschön, Veilchenblau
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Reply #22 of 23 posted 29 NOV 08 by BarbaraG SE Virginia
Lamarque's prickles may be widely spaced, but they are curved and lethal. Of the noisettes, Reve d'Or would be a better choice-- tiny prickles, and very few. Fortune's Double Yellow is right up there with Mermaid-- serious thorns.
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Reply #18 of 23 posted 7 APR 07 by Unregistered Guest
If your rose labelled Fortune's Double yellow is thornless, it's something else. FDY is a hooker.
Nice list though; some of those I can't get hold of, and would love to grow.
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Reply #20 of 23 posted 8 APR 07 by jedmar
Margaret, you are right. FDY has curved prickles. What I probably meant, but did not write, was Yellow Banksiae, which is thornless.
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Reply #19 of 23 posted 7 APR 07 by Margaret Furness
A hooker is a rose that leaps out and acosts passers-by...
I'm told that Claire Jacquier is sometimes sold as Fortune's Double Yellow, but I haven't grown CJ and don't know whether it is prickly.
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Reply #21 of 23 posted 19 APR 07 by billy teabag
Ralph Moore's 1954 'Renae' is an excellent thornless climbing rose. Healthy but not overly rampant. Very recurrent. Fragrant. The blooms are pink, aging to a lighter colour.

The rose sold [in Australia] as "Beales Mons. Tillier" has many thornless stems. If you are in a mild climate this makes a beautiful, fragrant climber.

The rose sold as "Adam" also has very few prickles.
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most recent 5 MAY 12 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 19 MAR 06 by Cass's Garden With Roses
'Mlle de Sombreuil,' a tea, and the large flowered climber in commerce as 'Sombreuil' are not the same rose and should not be grouped together or shown as synonyms. They are very different from one another, have entirely different growth habits and very different hardiness ratings.

The large flowered climber is probably a descendant of 'New Dawn', while the tea 'Mlle de Sombreuil' has typical tea growth with lovely dark green foliage.
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Reply #1 of 29 posted 26 APR 06 by Jeri Jennings
There is no known answer to questions regarding the parentage of this rose.  We know only that the climbing rose we call "Sombreuil" is NOT the historic 'Mlle. de Sombreuil,' and was NOT created from 'Gigantesque.' 

It is a rose of unknown origin, and unknown parentage.  The physical characteristics of the rose lead some to believe it is a Hybrid of R. wichuriana -- but the Who, What, and Where of its creation are unknown.  No one can know what the unknown creator was aiming for.

Jeri Jennings
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Reply #20 of 29 posted 26 MAR 07 by HMF Admin
Jeri,

You seem to be very familiar with this issue. Would you consider enlightening us further with a brief Ezine article ? I'm sure the HMF users not aware of your findings would be very interested.
Meanwhile, thanks much for your input here.
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Reply #22 of 29 posted 26 MAR 07 by Unregistered Guest
No Problema.
You'll have it later today. :-)
Jeri
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Reply #23 of 29 posted 26 MAR 07 by HMF Admin
Wow, that was easy ! Thanks Jeri !! Your participation with HMF is much appreciated.
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Reply #2 of 29 posted 28 APR 06 by William

This is directly from the Jackson & Perkins database:


Sombreuil Antique Climber-



  • Pronunciation: Sombreuil=som-broo-ee

  • Parentage: Gigantesque

  • Height: 8-12'

  • Bloom color: White to cream

  • Bloom size: 3-4"

  • Petal count: 100+

  • Foliage: Semi-glossy, dark green

  • Fragrance: Strong, tea-rose

  • Vigorous repeat bloomer

  • Shade tolerant

  • Named in memory of Mlle de Sombreuil, a heroine of the French Revolution

    William


    Jackson & Perkins Customer Service


  • REPLY
    Reply #3 of 29 posted 28 APR 06 by Jeri Jennings
    William -- Sorry to disillusion you.   J&P is NOT the Fount of All Wisdom. 

    This material is correct in its description of the plant.
     The information about parentage, and naming, and classification relates to a different rose.  Don't shoot the messenger.  The error is of long-standing. 

    I recommend that you reference the information regarding 'Mlle. de Sombreuil' on the Vintage Gardens Website.
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    Reply #4 of 29 posted 28 APR 06 by William

    Jeri,


    If that is the case then we need to reevaluate our information.  Our catalog states that it was produced around the 1850's and as you see our master list says Parentage: Gigantesque.  Thank you for your candor.  I still have yet to hear from Mike Cady. Thanks again!


    REPLY
    Reply #5 of 29 posted 28 APR 06 by Jeri Jennings
    William -- ' 'Mlle. de Sombreuil' WAS produced in the 1850;s.

    The problem is that the rose being sold by J&P (among others) as "Sombreuil" is NOT the historic Tea Rose, 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.'  The confusion lies in the fact that two roses are "using" the same name. 

    Jeri
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    Reply #6 of 29 posted 28 APR 06 by William

    Jeri,


    Also as you see the one we sell is "Named in memory of Mile de Sombreuil, a heroine of the French Revolution".  Like I said until I here what Mr. Cady has to say, I will be totally confused.


    William

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    Reply #7 of 29 posted 29 APR 06 by Rupert, Kim L.

    William, if you study other roses of the Climbing Tea classification, then study the rose in commerce, including by J&P, as Sombreuil, you will see for yourself this is NOT a "Tea" rose. Once you have accomplished this comparison, then study roses bred from the species, R. wichuraiana, most notably, New Dawn, you will see the great resemblance, yourself. These two roses were confused in the trade many decades ago, and the confusion has been perpetuated by all who have sold "Sombreuil" ever since. When you receive material from someone who knows more than you do, seldom is the identification questioned. The "expert" IS supposed to know what he/she is talking about. Usually, the "expert" is relying upon information which has been given him by other "experts". Not to cast aspersions on "experts" in any way, as identifying anything which can vary so greatly due to many factors is never easy.


    There have been several notable cases of this type of confusion occurring with older roses. Jacques Cartier and Marchessa Boccella is one well known example as is the confusion between the two old Irish Hybrid Teas, Irish Fireflame and Irish Elegance, which I was able to unravel a few years ago. More recently, the confusion between the China, Irene Watts and the floribunda, Pink Gruss an Aachen was straightened out. Another was the discovery that the old Tea rose, Francis Dubreuil and the older Hybrid Tea, Barcelona, are the same rose. Not that originally there weren't two different roses in commerce, but currently, there is only one rose in each case, being mistakenly sold under the two different names. I seriously doubt anyone did anything dishonest, resulting in one rose being sold as the other name. No one is suggesting anything dishonest has been involved. When you read the older descriptions of these early roses, you'll find they were often sufficiently vague about botanical details, or there was so little defining information included, or even enough "poetic license" taken (VERY much like the case with modern rose catalogs!), that definitive identification is virtually impossible. To read my own research concerning the Irish Fireflame/Irish Elegance correction, please see the article at this link, here on Help Me Find.


    http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?i=A3407&tab=12


    It's very easy for roses to be mistaken for one another. That's how the root stock most commonly used in the United States by virtually all the major rose producers, including Jackson & Perkins, Dr. Huey, became the industry standard in this country. The information uncovered suggests that cuttings of the originally used stock, Gloire des Rosomanes, or Ragged Robin, were confused with those of Dr. Huey. Both were struck and budded in the fields there in Wasco, California. It was noticed that roses budded on some of the root stock developed faster and into better plants than others. They discovered the better plants hadn't been budded on Ragged Robin, but accidentally budded on Dr. Huey. Now, just about any budded rose generated in California is on Dr. Huey's roots, and have been for over half a century. 


    Accidents in identification occur all the time. The wrong rose gets shipped from nurseries; tags in receiving nurseries are mistakenly placed upon the incorrect plants; one small discrepancy in identifying a row in a mother block can lead to the incorrect budwood being collected. Often, roses are so generally similar that anyone either not familiar enough with the varieties, or careless in their collection of the requested material due to lack of interest or being rushed, can very easily pick up the wrong rose. Unidentified roses are frequently supplied to "experts" for identification. You'll see that nearly daily here and on other rose sites. When all you have is the scant information available about some of the older roses upon which to make an identification, it's easy to slip up. That's very likely what occurred regarding the Irene Watts/Pink Gruss an Aachen and Francis Dubreuil/Barcelona situations. The corrections occur through people looking at a rose and thinking, "something just isn't quite right here", as is the case with Sombreuil. I hope you have the opportunity to do some of this observation I suggested earlier of the Climbing Teas and Sombreuil. I guarantee it will cause you to question this identity.


     

    REPLY
    Reply #8 of 29 posted 29 APR 06 by William

    Kim,


    I do understand that this is not a "Tea" rose. My main concern in with Jackson & Perkins (for I work for them).  When they state in a catalog that this rose was introduced in the 1850's and its parentage is Gigantesque; where did they get their information and why did they publish it to pass along to our customer if they were not certain.  My main issue is internal and hope to have some answers before the end of next week.  On the other hand I appreciate your tour concerning roses that have been misclassified due to human err.


    On a lighter note; it is really funny you just answered me this way. I was just looking to see if anyone from J & P did any correspondence on this site and I found you and was getting ready talk with you about this very subject.


    Thanks again,


    William

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    Reply #9 of 29 posted 29 APR 06 by Jeri Jennings
    William -- J&P used -- in good faith -- the information we ALL have, regarding 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.'  (See "THE OLD ROSE ADVISOR," Dickerson, Pg. 218).

    The information is correct.  It's just that the rose being sold under that description is not the rose it was describing.

    It's not J&P's fault (or than of other vendors) that an error was made a half-century ago. 

    Now that the error has been exposed, some vendors have begun to correct their information.

    Vintage offers the correct 'Mlle. de Sombreuil,' and notes the error. 
    Ashdown also notes that this rose is not the true Sombreuil, 
    I'm sure J&P doesn't want to be the LAST vendor to correct this old error.

    Jeri
    REPLY
    Reply #10 of 29 posted 29 APR 06 by William

    Jeri,


    I am positive you are right.  And to think this particular discussion on this site only started Jan 2005, right as J & P introduced it into their catalog.  Now I want to know where the "Antique" climber came from; I truely love this rose.


    William

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    Reply #11 of 29 posted 29 APR 06 by Jeri Jennings
    AH, William! 

    We'd ALL like to know where the thing came from.   It's a GLORIOUS rose, and it's a shame to see it "hidden" by an incorrect identification.  (I have three of it!)

    It (or its identical twin) was released in 1959 by M. Wyant of Mentor, OH, as 'Colonial White.'  The recorded parentage for 'Colonial White' was 'New Dawn' x 'Mme. Hardy.'

    The problem with that is twofold:
    1.  'Mme. Hardy' is, as far as anyone has seen, sterile.
    2.  Wyant registered at least one other rose with records that may be incorrect.

    However, the 'New Dawn' part seems feasible, since it appears to have a Wichuriana background.  It's a mystery -- that is certain.

    Jeri
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    Reply #12 of 29 posted 4 MAY 06 by William

    Jeri,


    Finally got word from our distributors.  Our Sombreuil Antique Climber "appears to be identical to Colonial White"  So, yes there is great controversy about THIS roses heritage.  Sorry I don't have more information.


    William


    J & P Customer Service

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    Reply #13 of 29 posted 4 MAY 06 by Jeri Jennings
    I do not know what J&P's capabilities are -- HOWEVER -- one easy way to unscramble the central puzzle of this rose would be to compare its dna against that of R. wichuriana.

    IF R. wichuriana is a forebear of the rose in question, it cannot have been introduced in 1851.  Therefore, it cannot be 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.'  (And parenthetically, cannot be a Tea of any sort.)

    More interesting still would be to test it against New Dawn, and perhaps Mme. Hardy.

    Jeri
    REPLY
    Reply #21 of 29 posted 26 MAR 07 by HMF Admin
    Thank you for your participation Kim - your insight is always a valuable and revered contribution to HMF. Thanks again.
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    Reply #25 of 29 posted 27 MAR 07 by Anonymous-97434
    You're welcome! Thank YOU! This is what makes Help Me Find so valuable...the free International exchange of information between people of varying experience levels, raising the experience level of all involved. It couldn't happen without you and Help Me Find! Kim
    REPLY
    Reply #14 of 29 posted 9 MAY 06 by William

    Got word from Keith Zary and here is what he said, just thought you'd like to know:



    I am not an expert on antique roses. All my information on Climbing Sombreuil is from the literature that you probably are already aware. To the best of my knowledge, Robert of France bred the rose in 1850. It is stated to be a seedling of 'Gigantesque'. Austin states that the other parent is probably a Noisette or Tea rose. He could well be correct because the flowers are as Austin says "refined". I can find reference to a hybrid tea as a parent but this seems very unlikely(technically HT's did not come about until la France in 1867). As for the romantic story of the heroine of the Revolution, it makes for great catalog copy but I cannot prove the story. I also know that some experts like David Ruston report that the current edition of Sombreuil may not be the original. Again, I cannot prove this story.


    So, all I have done is further cloud the issue. Good luck in trying to find the correct answer.


    Best Regards,


    Keith


     


    REPLY
    Reply #15 of 29 posted 9 MAY 06 by Jeri Jennings
    All of the information Keith quoted is correct -- for the true 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.' 
    None of it is true of the rose in commerce as Sombreuil, which is not a Tea Rose, or a Climbing Tea Rose, and which is probably a creation of the 20th Century.

    OTOH, it is a really grand rose.  How much do I like it?  Enough to grow four of it!  Even tho in my foggy coastal climate it can mildew a little, I would not be without this beautiful mystery rose.

    Jeri
    REPLY
    Reply #16 of 29 posted 12 MAY 06 by Nicole Piehl

    Thank you guys so much for this whole discussion!  I am pleased that you have taken the time to not only do the research and ask the questions, but also to share with the rest of us.


    Nicole

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    Reply #17 of 29 posted 12 MAY 06 by William

    Nicole,


    It has been my pleasure.  I for one wanted to know the truth about this rose; I spend so much time talking to customers who order from us (Jackson & Perkins) and facts really do matter to me.  Besides that I love this rose.


    William

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    Reply #24 of 29 posted 26 MAR 07 by HMF Admin
    William,

    We too thank you for your participation in this discussion and for bringing to bear the resources of J&P to help.
    REPLY
    Reply #26 of 29 posted 29 MAR 07 by William
    I have learned alot and have shared with my peers hoping to soon correct our error in the J & P catalog.
    REPLY
    Reply #18 of 29 posted 26 MAR 07 by marcir
    I have posted a number of pictures of Sombreuil, Climbing, at various stages of bloom, as well as pictures of leaf, thorns and stipules. I will do the same for Mlle de Sombreuil when my plant is large enough in summer.
    REPLY
    Reply #19 of 29 posted 26 MAR 07 by HMF Admin
    To all,

    The discussion about this rose is what HMF is all about - a globally accessable resource to collect and share the knowledge and opinions of people from around the world. Only through this open exchange of knowledge can we hope to document and resolve decade-old misconceptions as well as provide the most timely information available. Please note the support of several volunteers from different parts of the world have allowed us to greatly expand our rose, nursery, garden, breeder, society, (etc.) listings.
    REPLY
    Reply #27 of 29 posted 26 MAY 08 by solicitr
    While the climbing Sombreuil is pretty plainly of Wichurana stock, I'm really unconvinced that it comes from New Dawn or any other Van Fleet rambler. Dr Walter v F used Hybrid Teas in his crosses, and his wichurana ramblers all (AFAIK) have very modern-form blooms: most unlike 'Sombreuil.'

    Possiby it's a Barbier- but then again a LOT of breeders started playing with R. Wich as soon as it was introduced.


    Incidentally, Mademoiselle de Sombreuil (the human one) was a 'heroine' of the Revolution because she demonstrated the ardour of her commitment by drinking a glass of aristocrats' blood, fresh from the guillotine. Some heroine.
    REPLY
    Reply #28 of 29 posted 21 APR 09 by Jeff Britt
    I really think we are never going to know where the rose sold as Sombreuil originated. It is, in many ways, quite unique. There doesn't seem to be much doubt (though no proof) that it is a wichuriana climber, but what kind is far from obvious. There aren't any Barbier ramblers quite like it. "Sombreuil" has larger flowers than just about any Barbier rambler, and reblooms freely, which the Barbiers do not. The new growth is tinged with red and the prickles remain red, again unusual for the Barbier ramblers. I would have to agree with Jeri Jennings - this is probably a 20th century creation. I don't think New Dawn is its parent since it doesn't really resemble any its progeny. Hence, my belief we are never going to know its parentage or origins. That said, it's fun to speculate! Maybe DNA analysis will point the way to more focused speculation.
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    Reply #29 of 29 posted 5 MAY 12 by Courtaud
    Mlle de Sombreuil drank a glass of what she believed was blood in order to saver her father (a marquis) from the guillotine, poor girl.
    REPLY
    most recent 5 DEC 10 SHOW ALL
     
    Initial post 25 FEB 04 by Unregistered Guest
    I have a Queen Elizabeth climbing rose. This is the second year its been planted, the foliage is profuse and it is healthy but NO FLOWERS. I have fed it with rose food. What can I do to get it to bloom. ???????
    REPLY
    Reply #1 of 6 posted 6 JUN 03 by The Old Rosarian
    Climbing Queen Elizabeth is known for it's lack of blooms for the first few years. This rose is very vigorous and uses up its energy by making new growth at the expense of making flowers. Try not fertilizing it so that the growth is not so rampant.
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    Reply #2 of 6 posted 25 FEB 04 by Anonymous-797
    My Queen Elizabeth rose (climbing) bloomed this past spring - it has been planted about 1 1/2 years. But it has not bloomed again . Will it bloom in the fall? The plant is a prolific grower and is very healthy and it receives full sun all day. Am I just being impatient on waiting for blooms? I would be disappointed in having a rose that only blooms in the spring.

    The blooms in the spring were gorgeous and plentiful.
    REPLY
    Reply #3 of 6 posted 25 FEB 04 by Unregistered Guest
    The Queen Elizabeth climber is notoriously shy with blossoms. It seems to put most of its energy into growing. When the plant can be left without pruning in an area where it does not die back because of frost damage, and if it is otherwise happy it grow to be huge and will be very productive in the spring, less productive later. Too often it spends its season growing canes and blooms very little, and has disappointed many a rose grower. The original bush form of Queen Elizabeth is generally better, as it blooms dependably 3 or more times per season in most areas.
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    Reply #5 of 6 posted 29 JUN 10 by Unregistered Guest
    My Queen Elizabeth blooms well but the blossoms stay closed in a ball. Why don't they open up? She is planted along a fence on the North side of my house but she gets sun all day long. I live in the Central Coast area of Californis (Santa Maria, Ca) with summer temps of 65 to 80 degrees. I prune her well every winter.
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    Reply #6 of 6 posted 5 DEC 10 by York Rose
    Sometimes rose varieties with fully double flowers (i.e., plenty of petals) struggle to open their flowers in cool summer climates. I also live in a climate (north of Boston) with relatively cool summers and had this problem with the Bourbon rose Madame Pierre Oger. (The bush also grew with little vigor and after it died one winter I didn't replace it.) You may find you will be more successful with roses that have fewer petals in their blossoms.
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    Reply #4 of 6 posted 26 APR 06 by William

    Sometimes if you just add more potassium you will get blooms.  Some climbers need more acid (more in the form of potassium) to produce blooms because of how vigorous they are (that is a long way for the fertilizer to travel). If you give it too little they wouldn't bloom at all but just enough or a little more boom you've got blooms.  Remember this key Potassium produces SIZE in bloom and Phosphorus produces amount of bloom.  I know you can have too much Phosphorus but I still have yet to see if you can add too much Potassium.   A standard fertilizer has three numbers like 16-9-12 (my favorite mix for roses but still feel some still need more Potassium). These numbers represent in order Nitrogen - Phosphorus - Potassium. Hope this helps.

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    most recent 21 MAR 10 SHOW ALL
     
    Initial post 25 FEB 04 by Unregistered Guest
    What is the Sombreuil Rose a hybrid of? Or how did it become a hybrid, meaning what characteristics did the maker of this rose need/want? please answer as soon as possible!!!
    REPLY
    Reply #1 of 14 posted 4 MAY 03 by Unregistered Guest
    The family tree of a rose can fill a page but if you look up Sombreuil on HelpMeFind and then click on the paratage. This will give you the information you want.
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    Reply #2 of 14 posted 26 APR 06 by San Jose Heritage Rose Garden
    Note that the listing for the rose in commerce as 'Sombreuil' has been updated.  The actual parentage is unknown.
    REPLY
    Reply #3 of 14 posted 26 APR 06 by William

    Its parent is Gigantesque x Unknown seedling.  Sombreuil Antique Climber was created around 1850.  This is all I know.


    William


    Jackson & Perkins Customer Service

    REPLY
    Reply #4 of 14 posted 26 APR 06 by San Jose Heritage Rose Garden
    I've seen that parentage.  Do you have a reference?

    Trouble is that no one seems to be able to find a plant of it before Wyant introduced Colonial White.

    The historical rose is the Tea, 'Mlle. de Sombreuil'  which see.

    This is not to detract from the quality of this great climber.

    Mel
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    Reply #6 of 14 posted 28 APR 06 by William

    When Jackson & Perkins acquired the Sombreuil we were also given privy to some of its history.  Don't know much more than what I've already stated.  I'm corresponding with our horticulturalist Mike Cady hoping he has more information.


    William


    Jackson & Perkins Customer Service

    REPLY
    Reply #7 of 14 posted 28 APR 06 by Jeri Jennings
    William -- Suggest you send Mr. Cady to Vintage Gardens.

    Jeri
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    Reply #8 of 14 posted 28 APR 06 by San Jose Heritage Rose Garden
    I will be very interested as to when and from whom J&P received the rose J&P sells as Sombreuil.  Particularly interesting would be any reference to Roses of Yesterday and Today in that provenance.

    Mel
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    Reply #5 of 14 posted 26 APR 06 by Jeri Jennings
    See reply page:
    This rose is not the historic rose, 'Mlle. de Sombreuil,' which was bred from 'Gigantesque.'

    It is not a Climbing Tea Rose
    It is not a Tea Rose

    It is a magnificent climbing rose, of probable Wichuriana origin. 
    Parentage, date, and creator (if any) are unknown, and will probably remain unknown forever.

    Jeri Jennings
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    Reply #9 of 14 posted 21 MAY 09 by Roselover24
    sombrueil is a clg tea bred by robert in 1850 it is cross of Reine MARIE Henriette,a clg ht
    and Bardou Job, a cross of a bourbonxht both unknown.
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    Reply #10 of 14 posted 21 MAY 09 by Cass
    The rose documented on this page is not a climbing Tea, but rather a large-flowered climber. Nor is Mlle de Sombreuil, the Tea rose of the same name, a climbing Tea.

    This Sombreuil is a large-flowered climber introduced in the late 40's or early 50's. It's parentage is unknown. Please check Modern Roses 12 for a long-awaited clarification that this rose is in no way an Old Garden Rose, despite the spurious introduction date listed in Modern Roses of 1880.
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    Reply #11 of 14 posted 21 MAY 09 by jedmar
    I never heard of the parentage with Reine Marie Henriette and Bardou Job for 'Sombreuil' before. Do you have a source for that?
    REPLY
    Reply #12 of 14 posted 22 MAY 09 by billy teabag
    Both 'Reine Marie Henriette' and 'Bardou Job' were bred well after 1850, so they cannot be the parents of Robert's 1850 'Sombreuil'/ 'Mlle de Sombreuil'.
    Does this parentage apply to another rose, another breeder?
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    Reply #13 of 14 posted 21 MAR 10 by kev
    sombreuil is a tea rose ,as to what its parentage is it would be speculation as many of the roses pre 19oo were haphazard cross with little or no records to the crossingings being kept.record keeping for roses really only became the art form it is now with the inception of the struggle for breeders right spear headed by antoine and francis meilland and robert pyle.
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    Reply #14 of 14 posted 21 MAR 10 by jedmar
    The Tea rose by Robert is now listed as 'Mademoiselle de Sombreuil', while the name 'Sombreuil' is attached to this unknown Climber - an unfortunate decision of the ARA.
    REPLY
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