HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Don H
most recent 4 OCT SHOW ALL
Initial post 16 APR 09 by maele
Love, love, love it! So far it's doing well in it's first southern california spring that's been a little colder than usual. Still waiting to see what it does in the HOT summer ahead, but will post an update. Blooms like crazy, and no blooms fell off in yesterday's high winds. Beautiful ruffled edges, worth it for that feature alone. Also, no signs of disease. Colors are muted but pretty, open up russettish, fade to salmon pinkish/lavender when spent.
Reply #1 of 21 posted 10 MAY 09 by Jeff Britt
This is a nice, healthy rose that blooms freely and well. I just can't stand the color. It must be a personal quirk, but the color is very unsettled, harsh and doesn't combine well with other colors in the garden.
Reply #2 of 21 posted 10 MAY 09 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Jeff, you got further than I did. I couldn't bring myself to purchase CdM.
Reply #3 of 21 posted 11 MAY 09 by Don H
There is a bed of Cinco de Mayo at Elizabeth Park in Hartford. I have to say that the photos at HMF don't really capture its appearance in a bed, or even the flowers - the blooms have much more yellow in them here. It's a hugely floriferous plant, as well.

That said, the foliage and especially the canes detract from it, being very rustic looking and quite prickly. It is not high on my list as a breeder but I do think it would be worth exploring and may give it some attention this year as a pollen parent. I have a couple of OP seedlings going of it as well.
Reply #4 of 21 posted 12 MAY 09 by Jeff Britt
I didn't buy CDM to put in my garden. NO way would the color work anywhere. I bought three plants for a neighbor and she's thrilled with them. She likes anything bright and gaudy, and in her garden it seems to look O.K. CDM does flower like a trooper, though the growth is a bit uneven -- some short and some tall canes, so you don't get a very rounded bush without some heavy-handed pruning.
Reply #6 of 21 posted 26 MAY 09 by Jeff Britt
You know, I knew that the color of CDM reminded me of something, and yesterday the penny dropped. The color reminds me of when someone's mother used to mix grape Kool-Aid with Hawaiian Punch and serve it at a kids party. It tasted strange, too!
Reply #7 of 21 posted 28 MAY 09 by HMF Admin
lol !
Reply #5 of 21 posted 15 MAY 09 by Linette
We purchased the Cinco de Mayo and what a disappointment. It's a healthy plant and blooms frequently, however the color is awful and not as pictured at all. I thought the more it bloomed and became established, that the color would be truer to the picture but I think it has settled on a Coral with some blooms containing yellow streaks. I purchased this rose specifically for a corner that had been without for years (waiting on the right one) and I thought I had found the one with Cinco de Mayo. The blooms do not last long and the only positive I can find is the foliage color. This is one rose that I will be removing once I find a better one to add. I have never felt this way about a plant and much more a rose. I learn to live with the sometimes "not as pictured" roses but this rose is so different in color, it would almost be easier to believe they packaged the wrong plant in error. I only see the purple hues when the flower has died (so dead the petals are dry).
Reply #21 of 21 posted 4 OCT by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Thank you for the info. that blooms don't last long.
Reply #8 of 21 posted 2 JUN 09 by DonaldQuRoses
Wow I'm shocked with everyone disliking the color. I find it to be too beautiful for words! There is no way to photograph it and capture its nuances and color variations. I guess to each his own. I do wonder though if location makes a difference. Some roses look like completely different roses if viewed across the states and globe. I've mixed mine with a lavender pink rose and two very deep red roses. The combo is divine!
Reply #9 of 21 posted 4 JUN 09 by maele
The color does change a LOT, but I find the foliage really pretty. Even though it does match absolutely nothing, I am planning to put it with lavender perennials, a red japanese maple that is a dark maroon, and maybe small red roses. For me the second bloom cycle had a few dark orange flowers, but my friend's plant did turn very gaudy as some of you mentioned. Hers is from Star and mine is from Weeks, but I don't know if it makes a difference.
Now mine seems to have settled into a beautiful muted russet color, and it blooms all the time. I agree with everyone that this is a strange looking plant, but I still like it. One cool thing is that the color can pull together other random colors in a vase of cut roses, since it has a little bit of everything.
Reply #10 of 21 posted 5 JUN 09 by DonaldQuRoses
I can see 'Distant Drums' as a good companion rose! Just thought of this combo!
Reply #11 of 21 posted 5 JUN 09 by Jeff Britt
Reply #12 of 21 posted 5 JUN 09 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
"Yikes", lol, I had the same reaction!
Reply #18 of 21 posted 25 NOV 09 by Michael Garhart
Robert, you have no taste :P

I actually like this rose. It has a nice bushy habit. The color is very Fall-like here in Oregon. It is very rustic. It actually has a strong Pacific NW feel to it. My main complaint of it is that I feel it should be stronger smelling for what it is. I wish Distant Drums had a more natural bush like CdM does, and I wish CdM had a more memorable scent like DD does, lol.

At any rate, I would recommend this rose for rounding out any angular corners in the garden --especially those corners that need a smooth, dark touch to it -- not something punctual or attention seeking.
Reply #19 of 21 posted 25 NOV 09 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Vive la difference! ;-)
Reply #20 of 21 posted 25 NOV 09 by Michael Garhart
Pffft :P
Reply #13 of 21 posted 5 JUN 09 by DonaldQuRoses
C'mon guys! Are ya color blind? ;) I just thought with Distant Drums being peach pink and purple it would echo a paler version of Cinco de Mayo. Now stop making fun of my color sense - I do have a Master of Fine Arts in Painting after all - whadyo got? ;)
Reply #14 of 21 posted 5 JUN 09 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Degrees in horticulture. ;-)
Reply #15 of 21 posted 5 JUN 09 by DonaldQuRoses
No wonder!!! ;()
Reply #16 of 21 posted 6 JUN 09 by Margaret Furness
Now add Victoriana, and you'll have the full catastrophe.
(My degree is in radiology - black & white stuff.)
Reply #17 of 21 posted 7 JUN 09 by Jeff Britt
Degree in horticulture and strong opinions. That's all. And in NO way do I mean to demean anyone's color sense. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I believe that completely. CDM has merits that I cannot appreciate, but you do. Thank God we're not all alike!
most recent 13 FEB 19 SHOW ALL
Initial post 23 JUN 08 by Don H
According to the Thomas Jefferson Foundation it was William Prince and his son William Rogers Prince of Flushing, New York who hybridized Baltimore Belle. See
Reply #1 of 2 posted 13 FEB 19 by StefanDC
The link included in the original post seems to be broken now, but anyone interested can currently still find the document here:

However, it does not suggest that 'Baltimore Belle' was hybridized by Prince, which would be entirely at odds with the long written history that firmly credits Samuel Feast as its originator. The only mention of this cultivar in the article states, "He [Prince] paid special attention to hybrids of the prairie rose, Rosa setigera, the most celebrated being the magnificent 'Baltimore Belle'."
Reply #2 of 2 posted 13 FEB 19 by Don H
Good catch, Stefan, thanks.
most recent 30 APR 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 16 OCT 09 by Don H
The July 8, 1956 edition of The Saint Petersburg Times reported that the parentage of Sterling Silver was "a cross between the well known hybrid tea rose, Peace, and a grey blue-lavender rose called Morning Mist".,3780064
Reply #1 of 12 posted 16 OCT 09 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Great information Don!

I thought 'Morning Mist' by Fisher might still be offered for sale, but when you go to the Brentwood Bay Nursery Website, it says they offer the Austin rose by the same name.

Apparently the Fisher version is out of commerce.
Reply #2 of 12 posted 16 OCT 09 by Don H
Morning Mist is a dead end as far as the lineage goes. Gladys listed it as a selfling of one of her other hybrids which she didn't name.

The roses that are listed in Gladys Fisher's patents are

Peace - patent 591, as female
Rapture - unpatented,as female
Rome Glory - patent 304,as male
Happiness - patent 911, as female
New Yorker - patent 823, as male
Golden Anniversary - patent 806, probably as female
Masquerade - patent 975, probably as male
Mission Bells - patent 923 as male
Talisman - unpatented, as female
R. M. S. Queen Mary - patent 249 as male
Rome Glory - unpatented, as female
Better Times - patent 23 as male
Orange Nassau - patent 350, as male
Floradora - unpatented as female
Fashion - patent 789 as male

Of these, Rapture is the only one that is a greenhouse rose and which looks to me like it might otherwise fit the bill as being grandparent to SS.
Reply #3 of 12 posted 16 OCT 09 by Robert Neil Rippetoe

I would have bet money 'Grey Pearl' was lurking somewhere in the lineage of SS.

Mrs. Fisher must have been very pleasantly surprised when SS popped up.
Reply #4 of 12 posted 27 FEB 10 by Unregistered Guest
hmmm.....I actually read an article fact it was from a book about rose names, and it talked about gray pearl as being one of the parents of sterling silver. I think that lineage would make a lot of sense because gray pearl is a very weak rose and sterling silver is not a particularly good grower from a whole variety of reports. Mine grows reasonably well and is healthy. Go figure. I live in pennsylvania. Maybe my climate is well suited for it.
Reply #5 of 12 posted 16 MAR 10 by Don H
Robert, it turns out that Morning Mist never made it to the marketplace. See,3561950

I think you are correct about Grey Pearl lurking behind Sterling Silver. My guess (yet again) is that Morning Mist was an OP seedling of Lavender Pinocchio. The timing was right, and you've pointed out elsewhere the ability of Lavender Pinocchio to pass along fragrance.
Reply #6 of 12 posted 16 MAR 10 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Fascinating. I bet you're right.
Reply #8 of 12 posted 17 JAN 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
The 1956 article said she'd not introduced it, however a bed of a lavender HT named Morning Mist grew at Rose Hills Memorial Park Rose Garden in Whittier, Ca until the late 1980s. I was permitted to take cuttings there several times and Morning Mist and Dennison Morey's Mountain Haze were two I tried to propagate and failed. They grew there until the rose gardens were removed and replaced with the Rose Hills Rose Trials.
Reply #9 of 12 posted 17 JAN 12 by Don H
Wow. Any chance you took photos of Morning Mist?

I do hope somebody in a suitable climate preserves VID Sterling Silver after Vintage closes.
Reply #10 of 12 posted 17 JAN 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Hi Don, unfortunately, I don't think so. I don't remember photographing it and when permitted to make a cutting run, I would have been armed with a specific list of material to gather and the supplies necessary to accomplish it. The garden was nearly seventy miles from home and rush hour traffic as well as time to process the material were taken into consideration. I most often didn't carry my camera with me for fear of dropping or otherwise damaging or losing it. Those times, I was on a "mission"! The more I dig into this, the more I'm beginning to wonder if what we have ISN'T Sterling Silver, but perhaps Morning Mist? Weak plant, too few petals, etc. You know how easily things are mistaken and confused in the trade. And, you've probably experienced any lavender rose being responded to as "LOOK at the Sterling Silvers!"
Reply #11 of 12 posted 11 JUN 13 by Benaminh
Don, University of California Davis Foundation Plant Services has an extensive VID list and is offering virus indexed Sterling Silver cuttings and budwood:

As of 07/10/13, listed under "Custom Services," they charge about USD $2,000 to clean any rose variety of virus, but require three plants and two years' time.
Reply #7 of 12 posted 16 MAR 10 by Unregistered Guest
Greast post Don! We should get someone to update that info. BTW, I found the book that said Grey Pearl was a parent. It's called: A Rose by Any Name: The Little-Known Lore and Deep-Rooted History of Rose Names
by Douglas Brenner and Stephen Scanniello.

I think your reference is much more reliable and accurate so I say we should definitely get that officially listed. (Nevermind, it already is.)

:) Thanks. Getting the lineage for this one is actually kind of a big deal, as almost all of the lavenders are derived from this plant it seems.
Reply #12 of 12 posted 30 APR 17 by Michael Garhart
I don't really doubt the Peace heritage. Or the Grey Pearl heritage. But I almost want to say Sterling Silver is 1/4 floribunda, which makes me wonder about Fashion. An example: Peace x (Grey Pearl x Fashion).

By the way, here is the link to the passage mentioned:
most recent 28 APR 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 4 DEC 11 by Don H
Another rose by this name has been introduced by Fryer, see their catalogue (2011)

Makes you wonder what good it is having an international naming registration process.
Reply #1 of 10 posted 4 DEC 11 by jedmar
Thank you! It seems that less and less breeders are registering with the ARS.
Reply #2 of 10 posted 19 DEC 11 by Laurie Newman
The breeder of this rose together with two others has, not registered any of his roses in Australia, despite my personally approaching him and his being provided with the wherwithall to register. ARS has no knowledge of them. If breeders are choosing not to register their roses (what evidence is there?) it is hardly fair to point the finger at ARS. Unfortunately this breeder is very recently deceased, so the question of registration is now moot. The opportunity to become a part of Australia's rich heritage of rose breeding was offered.

For the record, Australia has a National Registrar and ARS is regularly supplied with details of roses bred here as distinct from every other member nation of WFRS. If the breeders refuse to register their roses, and member nations of WFRS will not establish national registrars, it is hardly the fault of ARS, who are doing their best under very difficult circumstances. ARS doesn't deserve the slings and arrows of those who obviously know little about their circumstances, and who may in fact be a little envious of the good works of American Rose Society as it performs its function with a considerable degree of accuracy and certainty.
Reply #3 of 10 posted 19 DEC 11 by Margaret Furness
When the big breeders re-use rose names, it's hard for minor breeders to take the process seriously. We've seen an example recently of what looked like a code-name being changed when a rose was distributed by a large company.
Registering a rose without patenting it may not seem worthwhile, but the cost of getting adequate protection of breeders' rights may be prohibitive for amateurs.
Reply #4 of 10 posted 13 MAR 15 by Patricia Routley
Dear Laurie,

Can you advise us on the use of the code name 'MELzules' used for Trevor Grant's 'Let's Celebrate' (see 2015 reference). I believe this code is incorrect and that TRG2 is the correct code name.
Reply #5 of 10 posted 25 APR 17 by Plazbo
No offense intended but
"The opportunity to become a part of Australia's rich heritage of rose breeding was offered. "

Seems very arrogant/self important. The breeders rose is still offered and he still has a part in "Australia's rich heritage of rose breeding" without registering. To diminish his role because he refused to drink the kool-aid says more about the organisation than the breeders.
Reply #6 of 10 posted 26 APR 17 by Simon Voorwinde
It is also interesting to keep an eye on the recent registrations here: . In all the years I have been watching this list, I have never seen a Meilland, or a Kordes, etc, name appear on the list. Why is that, I wonder? I also think the credibility of the registration process is called into question when some breeders choose to register ridiculously large numbers of roses... to be part of the rich tapestry of rose breeding culture in Australia, maybe???
Reply #7 of 10 posted 26 APR 17 by jedmar
Yes, the ARS/ICRA registrations are in the overwhelming majority from the Anglosaxon world, with a sprinkling of Asian and a few amateur European breeders. Representatives of the major European Rose breeding companies mention will have the answer, but I am guessing that the ICRA Registration does not give the commercial protection a patent application gives and is therefore of less value if you are in business on an international scale. For amateur breeders it is probably still less expensive than the patent process. Finally, for US breeders it is still a valid local association, maybe due to requirements of the show culture? Rose Shows with prizes are long gone in Continental Europe.
Reply #9 of 10 posted 26 APR 17 by Simon Voorwinde
Hi Jedmar, the registration process and the patenting process are two mutually exclusive processes. The registration process is free and coordinated by the International Society for Horticultural Sciences (through the ARS) in an effort to catalogue and document the creation, identity and origin of new plants varieties. The plant patenting process is (here in Australia) a national government run incentive to provide breeders with some form of protection and access to a period of guaranteed income exclusivity. It is indeed an expensive process. A rose does not have to be registered in any way with any horticultural society to be eligible for a patent. This is an important distinction to be made for up-and-coming rose breeders who often mistakenly assume registration automatically provides protection of their intellectual property.
Reply #10 of 10 posted 28 APR 17 by Plazbo
Correct, the patent (aka PBR in Aus) will set a person back a few thousand. An alternative may be to trademark (only a couple hundred) the name....sure it won't stop anyone propogating the rose but they'd need to do it under an entirely different name to sell it which maybe more hassle than it's worth because it'll be a year or two behind marketting.
Reply #8 of 10 posted 26 APR 17 by Warren Millington
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