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Charles Quest-Ritson 
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That's very interesting. Has SGH confirmed that Gros Provins Panaché came from Mr Lewis? If so, we need to know the origin of Lewis's plants. But I don't know where his archives are now.
Margaret Furness mentions that they have different ploidies; it would be interesting to know who established this and what further tests they have done on the two cvs.
Jäger says that Gros Provins Panaché is Dunkelviolett, rot und Weiss, which is surprising. Even when fresh, I would not describe the stripes as dark purple. Did Jäger know it at SGH or was he copying from a written source?
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#1 of 1 posted
19 MAR by
jedmar
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Jäger does not record 'Gross Provins Panaché' als existing in Sangerhuasen, so he must have taken the description from earlier literature. The colours violet, red and white are indeed mentioned by the references prior to 1936. The drawing of Journal des Roses in 1886 doesn't have violet in it, though. The form of the bloom is not quite like the cupped to semi-globular 'Honorine de Branbant'.
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"Honorine de Brabant" is a working name, given to this cultivar by Rémi Tanne when he launched it in 1916. However, in their book Historische Rosen im Europa Rosarium Sangerhausen: Noisette- und Bourbon-Rosen by Hella Brumme and Eilike Vemmer, published by Kosmos in 2023, the authors show that it can now be firmly identified as 'Gros Provins Panaché', introduced in 1855 by the prolific French breeder François Fontaine. Was it a sport of 'Commandant Beaurepaire'? Highly unlikely, though research might reveal that 'Commandant Beaurepaire' was a sport of 'Gros Provins Panaché'.
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"Honorine de Brabant" is said to be tetraploid, and Gros Provins Panache ex Guillot is diploid. So if A = B, then either what Guillot has, or what was tested as "Honorine de Brabant", was incorrect.
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That's important, but where's the evidence?
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Good point. I can't see a reference for H de B's ploidy.
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#4 of 4 posted
19 MAR by
jedmar
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What they are saying is that there is no difference between these two roses at the rosariums of Sangerhausen and Dortmund. That is quite possible, but is not conclusive evidence that the two roses were not originally distinct.
A note to HMF's 'Gros Provins Panaché" already mentioned that GPP in commerce is often HdB. GPP was not in the collection of Sangerhausen in 1936 and is not mentioned in any of the first 8 Rosen-Verzeichnis of Sangerhausen. It is listed as Provins Panaché in the 9th edition of 2011. Its provenance seems to be the National Bourbon rose collection of Victor Lewis of UK, which was disbanded. Probably Victor Lewis already had the wrong rose.
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Devoted the wife of Francisco Franco (1892 -1975), the spanish dictator. LG Rosenfee
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Good to have the information recorded, but I'm always glad to be reminded that Pedro Dot, who lived through that time in which thousands of his compatriots were murdered, never sank so low as to name a rose after Franco.
The dates of María del Carmen Polo y Martínez-Valdés herself were 1900–1988.
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You need to be a little more careful with your political statements. Some users of HMF, past and present, would have supported Catholic Franco against the Communists and Republicans.
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Agreed, especially in this day and age, HelpMeFind respectfully requests our guests refrain from political references, past and present please. HMF is about the joy of roses...
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The plants at Mottisfont Abbey are incorrectly named.
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#1 of 4 posted
27 JUN by
jedmar
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Only 'Violet Queen' or others too?
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Good question. None that comes to mind at once. But I will think again - I have occasionally had doubts, but very few. I noticed last week, for example, that 'Vick's Caprice' has reverted to 'Archiduchesse Elisabeth d'Autriche' and that most of the flowers are now without stripes. CQ-R.
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#3 of 4 posted
27 JUN by
jedmar
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Could the reversions be a result of the heat waves? I suppose one needs to check over a couple of years whether the stripes are really gone for ever.
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It is hard to answer this question. Photographs taken in 2015 show pronounced striping. By 2018, the stripes are very faint. By 2023, they appear to have vanished completely. But I need to see whether the reversion is limited to just part of the plant(s), in which case the reversions could be pruned out. I'm afraid I forgot to look at them when we were there last week but I will try to remember when they rebloom later in the year. I doubt whether heat would be the cause of the reversion. We do not have hot weather in England.
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