'schoolteacher loves roses' comments & questions

	Member Profile		Photos		Favorites		Comments		Journal

schoolteacher loves roses

My HMF:

RoseBetty Boop ™ (Floribunda, Carruth, 1999) most recent 13 MAY 12 SHOW ALL

Initial post 17 MAY 10 by timdufelmeier

Betty Boop is da BOMB.
I have been coveting her in others' gardens for years now. She sings, she acts, she dances, she models and all the while she's so strong, healthy AND generous with her talent. What other rose gives you such a stunning yellow/orange 2-Tone Hot Combo and then she fades to a (just as pretty) heartbreakingly sweet white/cerise 2-Tone Cool Combo? Only the forever BLOOMING BETTY BOOP! Her only moderation is a subtle perfume. If you only like full dairy queen shaped hybrid teas she's not your girl, but I've always liked a variety of rose types, including singles, semi-doubles, and floribundas.
I have been enrolled in a strict ROSE RESTRICTION CONTROL PROGRAM designed for rose addicts. At one time I had well over 400 neglected roses (now down to 150) and in my recovery program I am only allowed to purchase a new rose if I give one away. Finally I gave some of my beloved roses to my next door neighbor (JFK, Tiffany, Intrigue) so I was allowed to hire the multi -threat Ms Boop to entertain in my very own rose show. She's earning standing ovations every day.
She deserves an Oscar, Emmy, Tony, Grammy etc etc etc..

Reply #1 of 45 posted 17 MAY 10 by schoolteacher loves roses

Reply #2 of 45 posted 17 MAY 10 by HMF supporting member

Robert Neil Rippetoe

Yeah, but she ages BADLY here and doesn't self clean very well. I can't get past it. She might be pretty where you are, but I live in a warmer climate, and it's just plain ugly. It takes a hedge trimmer to get rid of all those nasty old faded hips and blossoms.	REPLY

Reply #3 of 45 posted 17 MAY 10 by timdufelmeier

Your the first person I have heard complain about a plant producing too many roses. If a rose works hard enough to create the roses I don't mind deadheading 'em off. The bushes I've seen in Palm Springs (in the summer) are really healthy plants with very tiny flowers. Do you get normal sized flowers during the other 3 seasons	REPLY

Reply #4 of 45 posted 17 MAY 10 by HMF supporting member

Robert Neil Rippetoe

I like BB when the blossoms are new. I don't like the way it fades here. They last forever and then they get ratty looking until they are deadheaded one way or another. That's the problem.

"Do you get normal sized flowers during the other 3 seasons"

Yes, and our Fall cool down takes much longer than in other climates. We get some of our best blossoms in Fall and Winter. Spring on the other hand is often shorter than we'd prefer. This year is atypical. We've had much cooler weather than usual.

Reply #5 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by timdufelmeier

Reply #11 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by CarolynB

Robert, we get a lot of summer heat here, but I guess not as much as you get. My Betty Boop doesn't get ratty looking here, like you're describing. The blooms eventually (after a long time) get faded enough not to look so exciting anymore, but that's it -- she mostly looks pretty to the end. However, she stops blooming when the weather gets really hot. Other than that, I'm delighted with my Betty Boop -- she's such a cheerful-looking presence in the yard, and she reblooms readily as long as the weather isn't extremely hot.

Reply #6 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by HMF supporting member

RoseBlush

Robert........ A friend of mine is growing BB up here in the NOCAL mountains and with temps in the triple digits for weeks at a time, BB just can't show her potential to be a beauty. The blooms do age horribly. Lyn	REPLY

Reply #7 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by HMF supporting member

Robert Neil Rippetoe

Lyn, yes, as you know, no rose is great everywhere. BB just another example. Tim, I'm with you on 'Gold Medal'. The fade can be pleasant in certain climates but then it just isn't good. I was working for Armstrong when that one came out. I never warmed up to it.	REPLY

Reply #8 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by timdufelmeier

Reply #9 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by HMF supporting member

Robert Neil Rippetoe

Nothing is great. It's best just to wait it out like most folks do in Winter. We call it Summer dormancy. Things like 'St. Patrick' hold up better than most. Still, it's not a favorite of mine.	REPLY

Reply #10 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by timdufelmeier

There is a great big red HT, looks a little like Mr Lincoln, that grows well for my family members who live in baking Porterville, Ca. When I went to a huge nursery during the summer to pick out some more roses for their garden, this variety (unnamed at the nursey) was the only one that wasn't fried to pieces among the potted roses, so I purchased three more of the same kind, what ever it is. Any clue as to the identity?
Also the mini, Sweet Chariot was in full bloom there, growing like a 3 ft. floribunda in the wet sand of their 109 degree heat. I used to think that it was a fragile rose which needed a touch shade with protection from the heat..

Reply #12 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by HMF supporting member

Kathy Strong

Matching the climate of a rose's breeder to the climate in which the rose will be grown often works. In terms of "standing up to intense heat," I would look to Ralph Moore's roses.

Also the red rose known alternately as Toro or Uncle Joe is a heat lover - or maybe that's what you already have.
And Moonstone and its clan.
And for newer introductions, try Estelle and Green Romantica -- those are roses that have trouble opening here because my climate does not have enough heat.
And most any florist rose -- they are bred with the idea in mind that they should hold on to their petals through a lot of shipping abuse, including heat.

Reply #13 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by Sarah

Reply #16 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by timdufelmeier

Rosaholic, Jotted those names down, Gracias! I do have a Teneke (quite nicely formed, full Florist white-no scent though) cutting that's gotten pretty big, so I'll take that up to them. I have Prima Donna too but those are the only Florist Roses that I know of. Do you grow any Florist Roses?	REPLY

Reply #14 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by HMF supporting member

Robert Neil Rippetoe

Tim, Rosaholic hit the nail on the head with 'Toro' sometimes known as 'Uncle Joe'. It's likely the red your relatives in Porterville grow.

Btw, Porterville is nothing compared to Palm Springs in terms of Summer heat. I used to take horticulture classes in Porterville while in high school, weird, but true.

Porterville isn't very far away from where Ralph Moore's Sequoia Nsy. was located.

Sarah, is also right about 'Red Masterpiece'. It one of the great forgotten reds. I forget about it and then forget to recommend it. It's has really nice form, it's vigorous, heat resistant and fragrant, great cut flower. It needs to be promoted much more often. Why it isn't better known remains a mystery. It just never took off for some reason.

Reply #15 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by timdufelmeier

Got Red Masterpiece in LA and gave a cutting to my neighbor, which of course is doing better than my mother plant. It's mistaken for Mr Lincoln by some, but for me and for her, RM blooms 5 times more than ML and we love it. Great to know it will tolerate the heat, maybe that's the one in Porterville. Glad to see so many RMast. fans out there.
I know and have tortured El Toro / Uncle Joe myself, I could never get that red football rack going. Though I've seen it around for years I have only seen it doing well once, in a semi- neglected South Central LA yard, but boy was it an impressive site. I'll start looking for it again (for them) in the bare root bins next winter. So it kicks ass in the desert?
I used to insist on a visit to Ralph Moore's place when I visited my brother's family, maybe that's where that big Polyantha looking Sweet Chariot came from. Is anyone familiar with his former employee's Burlington Rose Nursery? Anyone grown Anvil Sparks, she sells it there.
The family lived in the Sequoia Forest back when we used to go his nursery and all my Ralph gifts to them are at the former house. I didn't realize Moore's roses were Heat Proof.
What are everyone's fave heat proof roses? My best friend (fellow rosaholic) moved to St Helena,Ca (very hot Napa summer days w/ cool nights and winters) from St Monica and he's whining that he's lost his golden touch w/ roses up there.
Thank you all for the interesting rose tales and info!!

Reply #17 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by CarolynB

"What are everyone's fave heat proof roses?": Julia Child does well for me here in zone 9, even in our summer heat. It looks like Our Lady of Guadalupe will do well in our heat, too -- mine isn't thoroughly established yet, but she did pretty well her first summer here last year, blooming more than my established roses did. Betty Boop usually stays looking good foliage-wise in our heat (except when our highest triple-digit temps last a long time), although she stops blooming.

Reply #18 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by HMF supporting member

Robert Neil Rippetoe

'Julia Child' is good in our heat. It isn't the most exciting yellow in the world but it's hard to knock it. I like it much better than most. IMO, it's a very good rose. I like it much better than St. Patrick but of course it doesn't have the high centers many look for.	REPLY

Reply #19 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by CarolynB

Julia Child's color is so variable that sometimes her color looks exciting and sometimes it doesn't. My only disappointment with her is that she fades so quickly, to a somewhat drab-looking almost-offwhite. But she has so much else going for her that, as you said, it's hard to knock her.	REPLY

Reply #20 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by timdufelmeier

At the USC Rose Garden near downtown LA, there are about a 65 beds of 2o bushes each. Every bed is dedicated to one variety. You can spot out the solid yellow cotton patch bed of the Julia Childs a mile away, it's so floriferous. Reminds me of a smaller Austin.

Robert DG,
What's your beef with St Pat? I've always admired it and felt like I was a bit deprived cuz I don't own one. My organic gardner friend near Pasadena has a monster SP that grows to the top of her big 2 story Victorian-type farm house. It is fed w/ nothing but redwood bark drenched with horse poop from the Santa Anita race track.
Whats your ultimate yellow?

Reply #21 of 45 posted 18 MAY 10 by HMF supporting member

Robert Neil Rippetoe

Tim, maybe 'St. Patrick' does what it does too well. I dunno what it is, probably just personal preference It just leaves me flat for some reason.

I don't care for roses that go green for one thing. The blossoms last forever. I wish it were fragrant and that the color was a little more interesting.

I don't hate it. I just don't love it enough to give it space in my garden. It's a great one for exhibitors but I don't exhibit and have no plans to.

Reply #22 of 45 posted 19 JUL 10 by CarolynB

Does anyone else have any favorite heat-tolerant roses to tell us about? I'd really like to know about more of them. Are there any roses that can stand up to being next to a west-facing white wall in zone 9?	REPLY

Reply #23 of 45 posted 19 JUL 10 by HMF supporting member

RoseBlush

Carolyn............

I have a hard time finding any plant that can deal with triple digit temps for weeks at a time planted next to a wall that reflects additional heat. Actually, my best solution was to plant irises next to the wall and allow their leaves to absorb the heat and plant roses in front of them. It's not the perfect solution, but it's worked better than other things I have tried.

Smiles,
Lyn

Reply #25 of 45 posted 19 JUL 10 by CarolynB

Regarding your comment: "I have a hard time finding any plant that can deal with triple digit temps for weeks at a time planted next to a wall that reflects additional heat.":
I was hoping that, even if there was no rose that would work in this spot, at least maybe something else would -- maybe something semitropical like bougainvillea. Actually, our temps are not generally triple-digit for weeks at a time -- just sometimes for a few days at a time. They can be in the mid to high 90s for weeks at a time. Does that make a difference regarding whether something would work in that spot?

Reply #32 of 45 posted 19 JUL 10 by HMF supporting member

RoseBlush

The goal is to block the reflected heat so that the rose plant doesn't fry. I doubt if bougainvillea would serve that purpose. As for the blooms, Robert is correct in that florist roses can withstand high temps better than most roses because they have a heavy petal substance. Smiles, Lyn	REPLY

Reply #24 of 45 posted 19 JUL 10 by HMF supporting member

RoseBlush

I forgot... you can do a SEARCH for heat tolerent roses on HMF by using the ADVANCED SEARCH, click on GROWING, scroll down and check the box for HEAT TOLERANT, click CONTINUE, click SEARCH and ten pages of roses will appear for your to review. As a non-premium member, you still may use the ADVANCED SEARCH for one criteria.

I am certain there are more roses that are heat tolerant that are in the database, but we don't have specific COMMENTS or REFERENCES suggesting that we list a given rose as HEAT TOLERANT.

Smiles,
Lyn

Reply #27 of 45 posted 19 JUL 10 by timdufelmeier

Reply #33 of 45 posted 19 JUL 10 by HMF supporting member

RoseBlush

Reply #26 of 45 posted 19 JUL 10 by HMF supporting member

Robert Neil Rippetoe

Reply #28 of 45 posted 19 JUL 10 by timdufelmeier

I had that rose once and liked it, but my gardener killed it accidentally before it got as huge as it is supposed to. I like the eucalyptus smell. Is your bush the "mountain of pink" that I've read about?	REPLY

Reply #29 of 45 posted 19 JUL 10 by HMF supporting member

Robert Neil Rippetoe

'Mrs. B.R. Cant' is one of the best roses of all types. It's disease resistant, repeat is excellent, vigorous and can get large over time. It builds. Doesn't like to be cut hard. I love the fragrance. Sort of reminds me of Grapefruit.	REPLY

Reply #30 of 45 posted 19 JUL 10 by CarolynB

Thanks for this information, Robert. I don't think I currently have an available space big enough for the size it sounds like this rose attains. But I'll definitely keep it in mind for future reference.	REPLY

Reply #31 of 45 posted 19 JUL 10 by HMF supporting member

Robert Neil Rippetoe

You can keep it smaller but I would never cut it back more than a third. I've cut mine hard and it takes quite a while to recover. If you prune it lightly and often you should have no problem.	REPLY

Reply #34 of 45 posted 19 JUL 10 by CarolynB

That's good to know -- thanks. When HMF says "resist the urge to prune this one heavily -- it doesn't like it", that's not specific enough to know how much is okay to prune.	REPLY

Reply #35 of 45 posted 20 JUL 10 by timdufelmeier

Reply #36 of 45 posted 20 JUL 10 by CarolynB

Reply #37 of 45 posted 20 JUL 10 by timdufelmeier

Supposedy if one lives in a mild climate, you never need to prune lower than the heighth that you want your rose bush to be. Just remove dead or twiggy branches & canes. It works especially well for prune-phobic teas. This info came from Vintage Roses about an RNS study. The light pruning technique means less water and food too.	REPLY

Reply #38 of 45 posted 20 JUL 10 by HMF supporting member

Robert Neil Rippetoe

Reply #39 of 45 posted 22 JUL 10 by HMF supporting member

Cass

Light pruning works on many roses, but not all. Some roses thrive from the stimulation of pruning and decline if unpruned. Because I live in a mild climate, I always prune lightly at first. If the rose doesn't respond as I like, I prune harder.	REPLY

Reply #40 of 45 posted 22 JUL 10 by timdufelmeier

Hi Cass,
Nice to hear from you again! How're you babies in No Cal doing this summer? This is the coolest May-June-July I can remember since I moved to LA in '79. Good for the roses, horrible for the plumerias.
What type in general, or specifically, have you found to thrive off of a good pruning?
I used to be a chopper, esp for winter, then I started noticing all these healthier than hell (if somewhat rangey) bushes in neglected spots, where they were never getting pruned (and barely watered, probably never fed), that were blooming bigger and better than my well coiffured children. Now I think I maybe going overboard in sparing the pruners.

Reply #41 of 45 posted 23 JUL 10 by HMF supporting member

Cass

Let me qualify. I always prune for a purpose and prefer to describe it as training to generate vigorous new growth. I never hack everything in sight down to knee height. But I do go in and remove wood surgically in almost every class.

So...Hybrid perpetuals generally like pruning. The more intelligently I prune them, the better they like it. Leave them unpruned, and they do nothing. Gallicas like pruning, more specifically, thinning weak wood and then shortening to self-supporting canes. Portlands like pruning and get floppy if left unpruned. Most HT's and Grandifloras love pruning, go into a decline if left unpruned and refuse grow decent new wood until pruned. I was taught that by found roses I thought were Teas based on appearance. After they did nothing for years, I pruned hard and they shot up.

I've had the odd modern shrub, usually winter hardy types, that also decline in left unpruned. The two I'm thinking of are both Town and Country roses that did nothing until I pruned to 4 inches! Shrubs are a mish mash, somes like it, others don't. Golden Wings loves pruning, which is odd given its spinosissima heritage. Lots of roses, including mature Teas, benefit from thinning. After they reach mature size, they often have so much weak wood that it saps the strength of the plant instead of supporting it. Climbers like pruning. They respond to thinning by producing strong, longer basals or long continuing laterals. Ramblers often demand pruning. Some won't use the same flowering wood two years in a row.

What is true is that many young roses are pruned to death. That's usually caused by inexperience. We all do it when we start growing own-root Old Garden Roses and the only advice we can find is for growing Exhibition Hybrid Teas.

I've also found classes of roses that hate cane shortening and will sulk and die if you do it to them. Spins come to mind. Certain climbers want the entire basal removed, not shortened, or they'll do the same.

Pruning everything the same way and not pruning at all are both over-rated. End of rant.

Reply #42 of 45 posted 23 JUL 10 by timdufelmeier

Reply #43 of 45 posted 31 MAR 11 by CarolynB

Quote: "I've also found classes of roses that hate cane shortening and will sulk and die if you do it to them. Spins come to mind." What are the other classes of roses that hate cane shortening or hard pruning?	REPLY

Reply #44 of 45 posted 31 MAR 11 by HMF supporting member

Cass

CarolynB, It's really a large topic. I grow roses both for the beauty of the flower and the grace of the plant. A beautiful bloom on an ugly plant is not my objective. Given that bias, budded vs own root, mild vs harsh climate, even whether rain falls during or outside the growing season affect how to best prune. What I found most instructive was understanding the heritage of the rose. If it is derived from certain classes or species, I know better (a) how it will grow (shape and habit) and (b) how it wants to be pruned.

There are both classes and cultivars that resent being stubbed down. I'm sure that for each instance I suggest, there will be a gardener somewhere who prunes the roses I name to knee height every year. Pernetianas don't love to be nibbled at, and their hybrids are often the same. Bourbons, Hybrid Giganteas, Hybrid Musks, Mosses, don't need to be hacked down to a certain sized wood. Same already noted for Teas, Chinas and Noisettes. That's not the same as not liking pruning.

Let me try to be clearer: there are different ways to prune. We can thin by removing entire old or weak canes, we can shorten to stouter wood, we can remove old, dead, diseased and unproductive canes in their entirety but otherwise leave the rose alone, we can selectively prune for shape, or we can do every rose the same, no matter its heritage.

Reply #45 of 45 posted 13 MAY 12 by HMF supporting member

Chris

thank you for the advice. i hate to see Frau Karl Druschki looking so frumpy! will trim her asap. christine	REPLY