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Aurelija D.
most recent 13 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 15 MAY 18 by Les Racines du Vent
I have been growing Eurydice in the nursery for years but this spring, because it just happened so that they were close to Aennchen von Tharau in the greenhouse, I discovered that the two are identical.
At least the two I grow. But it is therefore only reasonable to assume that in commerce and gardens in western Europe the two are either the same or mixed up.
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 13 days ago by Aurelija D.
I have noticed the same. It also seems that Jean Laffite is a bit different in a bud form from this Eurydice/Anchen von Tharau rose? Also, some of the Annchen's in the photos seem to be more white/have less petals?
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Reply #2 of 3 posted 13 days ago by Les Racines du Vent
Interesting that you noticed the same! Unfortunately I don't grow Jean Laffitte so cannot have an opinion. As for the rest, I usually don't base my judgement / identification observations on the colour: too variable from year to year, weather conditions, exposition, soil, rootstock... Shape and sizes of prickles, stipules, buds (leafy or not...) is in my experience much more relevant.
Same for the petal count. The best exemple being the albas 'semi-plena' 'Maxima' and 'Suaveolens' that on the same plant show extreme number of petal variation, 'Maxima' being at times similar to 'semi-plena', especially the first blooms to open.
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Reply #3 of 3 posted 13 days ago by Aurelija D.
I got Jean Laffite this year, but it is a small plant, so nothing to compare so far. When looking for it though it seems that in some photos Jean looks almost peach and a bit more hybrid-tea like, so quite curious if mine will be different from Annchen.
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most recent 19 MAY SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 31 MAR 12 by Eric Timewell
This breeder is already famous as a botanist and plant explorer under the name Nicolai Anders von Hartwiss (1791?1793?–1860). He has a cordia, juniper, oak and paeony each named hartwissiana after him. Plants found by him take the identifier (Hartwiss) after the binomial Latin name, e.g. Acer colchicum Hartwiss.
He was educated in Livonia and came from the Germanized Livonian nobility. But since by his time Livonia had been absorbed into the Russian empire, and his exploration and plant breeding were carried out in what was then the Russian empire, he is listed as a Russian explorer and botanist, not a German or Ukrainian one. The Wikipedia entry http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolai_Anders_von_Hartwiss gives the essential references.
It might be a good idea to link the Help Me Find database to other forms of knowledge in this case and use his botanist's name. This would not reduce the value of the christening names provided by Warwaree elsewhere. His aristocratic Russian clientele wrote and spoke French, so his correspondence and names for his new rose varieties are in French too. For that reason most names on the current Plants Bred list are misleading.
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Reply #1 of 13 posted 4 APR 12 by jedmar
We have used the Russian names first in listing the roses bred by Hartwis, but the French synonyms are also listed. You can see these if you use the List Options / incl. synonyms buttons on the Plants Bred listing.
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Reply #2 of 13 posted 4 APR 12 by Eric Timewell
Yes, jedmar, I noticed that French synonyms for rose names are listed (as second options). The issue is with the breeder's own name. He never called himself "Gartvis" so there is no justification for our doing so either. He called himself "von Hartwiss" both in Livonia and in the Crimea. The administrative language of the Russian Empire was French (we have 300 pages written to his boss, all in French), so he could continue using the same roman letters we use. Nowadays Russians and Ukrainians use Cyrillic letters so they have to transliterate German "von Hartwiss" into Cyrillic. When you transliterate next into English you get "Gartvis".
That is what Warwaree was trying to get across when he posted on 6 February. We have no need to transliterate in the first place.
It is all right to drop the "von" for famous people. Goethe, Hindenburg, the Hapsburgs and so on do without, and botanists just acknowledge von Hartwiss's numerous discoveries by writing "Hartwiss". They don't write "Gartvis" though as far as I can see.
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Reply #3 of 13 posted 4 APR 12 by Aurelija D.
The issue is that Russian language does not have a letter H equivalent in their alphabet, therefore, if a name containing H is transcribed into Russian it becomes Г (G). It is a secondary translation issue, when Russians translate Hartwiss into Russian and it becomes Гартвис, and then you translate not from the original, but from the Russian source, which yields you unrecognizable version Gartvis. The issue is also more complex in that, that in Russian language (and in much other Eastern European languages which have grammatical cases) the names are adapted for more fluent use, and rather are written how they are pronounced, but not how they are written in the original form. To give a more contemporary example, George Clooney in Russian would be Джордж Клуни, so if you transcribe from Russian source, it would become Gorge Kluni, or something like that.
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Reply #4 of 13 posted 4 APR 12 by Eric Timewell
Exactly, Aurelija. Then we add that Hartwiss didn't write in Russian. He probably wrote German in Livonia and certainly wrote French in the Crimea. Of course people writing in Russian should call him Гартвис and people writing in west European languages should call him Hartwiss. Calling him Gartvis is a mistake in any language except Googlespeak.
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Reply #5 of 13 posted 5 APR 12 by Aurelija D.
Yes, I quite agree, it is a common issue with the naming in references, which version to use. Normally though in English, and in most other Western European languages the birth name in Latin alphabet is used - with, or without umlauts and similar extra letters. Only if there is no known Latin version, interpreters use phonetic transcription, which tends to create a bunch of very similar sounding names in different sources (like lets say Alionushka, Alyonushka, Aljonushka and so on).

Either way in this case a person Gartvis does not exist, it is either Hartwiss or Гартвис.
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Reply #6 of 13 posted 5 APR 12 by Eric Timewell
Aurelija, what do you make of "Anhorn"? Is it like "Ritter" in "Ritter von Hartwiss", forming a title? Or is it just another given name like Johann in "Johann von Hartwiss"? I can't find "Anhorn" in any dictionary.
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Reply #7 of 13 posted 5 APR 12 by Aurelija D.
Well he was coming from a family of Swis/Polish nobility, although him being a 10th child in the family, it is unlikely that he inherited any title. It seems that Ангорн фон Гартвис (Anhorn von Hartwiss) is a full family name, which normally was shortened to von Hartwiss - a rather common practice with the nobility names (with the full version used only for official occasions). I am not that familiar with old German, but I think Anhorn could mean something hill/mountain related, so Anhorn von Hartwiss probably would be something like "Anhorns from Hartwiss", to indicate a family Anhorn branch living in Hartwiss. I do not know his genealogy though, so it is a generic guess, there were a few articles/book published about him in Russian, so that might shed some more light on his personal life and family connections.
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Reply #8 of 13 posted 5 APR 12 by Eric Timewell
Oh, I see. You give a very enlightening "generic" explanation. Thank you.
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Reply #10 of 13 posted 6 APR 12 by jedmar
One ancestor was Bartholomäus Anhorn (1566-1640), Swiss protestant theologian, pastor and historian. His son Daniel Anhorn, also protestant pastor, had to flee 1621 from his hometown Fläsch, canton Graubünden to Zürich. (this was probably due to the "Bündner Wirren", the wars 1618-1639 in Graubünden between the French/Venetian coalition against the Spanish/Austrians - the latter invaded the region in 1620/21). Daniel Anhorn was apparently the first to write his name as "Anhorn von Hartwiss". His father Bartholomäus wrote a history of these wars called "Graw-Pünter Krieg 1603-1629".

Daniel's son Bartholomäus Anhorn von Hartwiss (January 16, 1616 Fläsch -July 7, 1700 Zürich) was also a protestant pastor and famous for his publications (Magiologia) against witches and witchcraft.

Nikolaus Ernst Bartholomäus Anhorn von Hartwiss was the son of Erich Heinrich Anhorn von Hartwiss (ca. 1750 - April 5, 1833 Kokenhof), and grandson of Sylvester Samuel Anhorn von Hartwiss (July 14, 1708 St. Gallen/Switzerland - ?) , of the Russian army (captain in Derbent (1733), brigadier of the Livonian Division (1755)). Sylvester's father was called Bartholomäus (a son of the witch pastor? he had 13 children!)

Bartholomäus' grandson Sebastian Anhorn von Hartwiss (December 2, 1709 Maienfeld - 1782 Kokenhof) seems also to have moved to Livonia (Livland) in the Baltics. He married Catherine Elisabeth, Baronesse Pott von Luberas. He was brigadier of the Livonian Division (1755), chief commander of Riga (1765) and Vice-governor of Livonia (1776). I am guessing that Sebastian and Sylvester were brothers or cousins who both enrolled in the Russian army.

See also the peony 'Paeonia wittmanniana Hartwiss ex Lindl.
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Reply #13 of 13 posted 19 MAY by Danhorn
Hi.
I think I'm related to this Anhorn. I've sent you a private message.
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Reply #9 of 13 posted 6 APR 12 by jedmar
Well, not quite. As aurelija writes, Russian say G instead of H in foreign words, e.g. You eat a Gamburger, fly with Luftgansa, etc. So, I am pretty certain they called him Gartvis. The english text of the website of the Nikita Botanical Gardens calls him Gartvis. We have both Anhorn von Hartwiss and Gartvis in the listing, so as to enable searchers using either name achieve a result.
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Reply #11 of 13 posted 6 APR 12 by Eric Timewell
Jedmar, it's great to have the ancestral details, confirming Aurelija's generic speculations. They were the Hartwiss Anhorns, not the Zürich Anhorns. Less great to hear how Russians say Hartwiss. The French-speaking Russian elite of his era presumably pronounced it 'Artwiss and some no doubt mistakenly spelt it that way. But it doesn't follow he should have a data entry under Artwiss. Likewise …
At least one Georgian rose researcher is too astute to write Gartvis. Arbartskaya, writing in Russian (http://kajuta.net/node/2624) puts the captions like this:
‘Belle de Nikita’ (HBe, Hartwiss, 1833).
That is, rose name in French, type in Russian, breeder's name in German and French.
To me, all this is worth the trouble because of two stunning and extant roses. I wonder can those Gartvissers be persuaded to hand over some photos?
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Reply #12 of 13 posted 6 APR 12 by Aurelija D.
Not quite, most of the Russian nobility did not speak Russian, and those that knew it, did not normally use it for the communication, because it was a language of the peasants. The Russian culture in general got some attention in the circles of nobility only with the rise of the Romanticism and the excellent art which was inspired by the folk tradition at that time. To make matters more complicated, in Crimea at the time of the Hartwiss, they spoke mostly Crimean Tatar language among the common folk.

I suppose the fact that Nikitsky Botanical garden calls him Gertvis is good enough reference to use that name as a synonym for Hartwiss, even though that tends to vary depending on who is translating the text into English (there are plenty of debates on translation issues in every field really).
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most recent 29 JAN HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 28 JAN by Aurelija D.
I wonder if this rose is named after Leopold Ritter von Sacher-Masoch (27 January 1836 – 9 March 1895) who was an Austrian nobleman, writer and journalist, known for his "romantic" stories of Galician life, aka 50 Shades of Gray of the time. :)
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 29 JAN by hannes
I don't think so. In that case the last name would have been "von Sacher-Masoch", not "Ritter". Josephine Ritter and Leopold Ritter were godmother and godfather to the rose breeder's two sons in 1860 and 1861.
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most recent 1 NOV HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 30 OCT
* This post deleted by user *
Reply #1 of 1 posted 31 OCT by jedmar
Click the photo, then the Edit button, then Delete button at the bottom.
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Reply #2 of 1 posted 1 NOV by Aurelija D.
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