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IanM
most recent 30 JUL 19 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 11 OCT 10 by Patricia Routley
In Brisbane in the past few days, I stood with Jennie O'Brien Lutton in front of a large bush (6 feet high?) of "Rita Petersen". (The bush was labelled Peterson, but the references seem to show that it may have been Petersen) There were two fairly distinct flowers on the bush, light pink flowers with a darker outer circle, and other flowers with the main colour being a dark pink. The bush looked more like a tea, than a china, to me. Very smooth wood between mature brown prickles (the older were gray) and many canes were thornless. The pedicel was prickly and the receptacle was long with no narrowing at the top where it met the bud. The opening bud was a very dark pink.

For the moment HelpMeFind has kept "Rita Petersen" as being a clone of 'Archiduc Charles', but if there are any other Australian thoughts that it may be something else entirely, it is a easy matter to separate this foundling into its own file. The following is from a private email to me from Jennie O'Brien Lutton dated September 8, 2006. As Jennie has a great interest in this rose, I know she would agree with this public sharing of part of the history of "Rita Petersen". She said:

I wrote to all and invited them to meet at the heritage area in New Farm Park. This garden was designed by Heritage Roses in Australia members in about 1990, and most of the roses were supplied by them. Probably in 1996 or 1997, a city council gardener, Colin Robards, was in charge of the Heritage area. He showed a great interest and made a big effort to get plans drawn and roses labelled. Rita Mortiss (HRIA member and one of the team originaly responsible for the heritage Rose planting in the park) and I, undertook to provide the correct details for the labels. We spent a lot of time double and triple checking references and discussing which we would choose when there was some difference in information. There are a few roses with labels like "Herston Rose" and "Sandgate Rose", these being the suburbs in which the old rose was found and propagated. We decided to label "Rita Petersen" with her name, even though we could find no record of it anywhere. Several people had told us it was "Rita Petersen". Roly Kent (now deceased), long time president of the QRS had actually told Rita Mortiss the name of the rose. Another of our long term members, Lionel Chitts, who was also part of the original HRIA team in the Heritage Area at New Farm Park, had the name from other sources. I had been told by a very elderly lady with a strong accent (probably Greek or Italian) over her fence that "everyone grows this Rita". The first time we saw anything about Rita Peterson in print, apart from Sue Zwar's comments about New Farm Park, was the reprint of Editor Stewart's article in the journal. We then felt that our decision to label the rose with the name had been the correct decision, even if the name of the rose was not proved. Editor Stewarts comments are interesting. Was General Galleni a popular rose at that time? Could he possibly not have seen it enough to positively identify it, or was he just repeating the text from Heers catalogue? There are certainly some similarities - the main being muddled and variable colour. Both have very variable blooms, size, colour shape etc even simultaneously However the General is red and creamy in the centre and obviously a tea rose, and Rita is red and pinky centred and obviously a china rose. I do not grow Rita. The plant we labelled "Rita Peterson" is quite common in Brisbane. I know quite a few places where it grows, mostly in older suburbs. There are 3 or 4 plants in a garden in the next block from me, but the people who live there know nothing about the garden.Most of our members could tell you where there are plants near them.
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Reply #1 of 18 posted 13 OCT 11 by IanM
Comparing the many photos I've seen of "Rita Petersen" with the 'Archduc Charles' in my garden, it seems to me that "Rita Petersen" consistently has some flowers that turn a very dark pink to almost red colour. Furthermore, this becomes a fairly solid colour throughout the flower. My 'Archduc Charles' never gets that intensity of colour. Rather it is typical for each flower to possess two or three shades of pink, with the lowest shade being almost white, and the highest about the colour and intensity of Old Blush. In fact someone once told me that an old name for this rose was "Three Colour China" or "3-in-1 Rose". Furthermore I have never seen flowers of solid deep pink to red on my plant. The flower color is either a fairly solid light pink or variable as I've described above. So I must ask, could this occasional dark, solid flower be a characteristic typical of the clone known as "Rita Petersen", but not typical of 'Archduc Charles'?

I live in Australia and would be interested in some cuttings of "Rita Petersen" to compare with my 'Archduc Charles'.
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Reply #2 of 18 posted 13 OCT 11 by Patricia Routley
Brent Dickerson lists a pink hybrid china 'A Trois Fleurs' (Three-Flowering Rose), breeder unknown, prior to 1838, in his 'Old Roses: the Master List', 2007, p14.

I have seen the big bush of "Rita Petersen" just once in New Farm Park in Brisbane and cannot comment on the colour. There seemed to be a concensus that "Rita Petersen" and 'Archiduc Charles' were the same rose, but it would be really great if more people could grow them side by side. I note you live in Queensland and perhaps you could contact Bonita Cattell for cuttings. I am sure she will know where to obtain them.
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Reply #3 of 18 posted 14 OCT 11 by IanM
Thanks Patricia. I've heard it called "Three in One China" or "Three Flowered China" on more than one occasion so this was evidently an old name for it. So it is possible that one of the clones in Australia may actually be 'A Trois Fleurs' (not to be confused with the single-flowered Rubiginosa hybrid by that same name). I notice HelpMeFind does not yet have an entry for the China rose by that name.
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Reply #4 of 18 posted 17 JUL 19 by HubertG
This is an old thread but I thought it best to post this here. In an old Brisbane newspaper 'The Queenslander' for 26 June, 1909 on page 8 there is a good article on roses and in the paragraph recommending buds for buttonholes I found this reference to "Miss Rita Peterson". It is from "A paper read by Mr. George Watkins at the Queensland Horticultural Society":

"Another Queensland variety may be included in these - namely Miss Rita Peterson, a sport from Penelope."

Of course it may or may not be true, but at least it places this rose at a relatively early date.

I also found this advertisement for "H. A. Petersen Ltd, Seedsman & Nurserymen" (George St, Brisbane) in 'The Daily Mercury' (Mackay, QLD), 13 Oct 1923, page 13:

"ROSE TREES. [ ... ] Petersen's trees are selected for their suitability to the Queensland climate. Grown in the Model Nursery at Kuraby, they come to you clean, healthy and true to name. [ ... ] Here is a choice Collection [ ... ] Miss Rita Petersen (deep rose)."

So it seems that the correct name is "Miss Rita Petersen" , and if it's a sport of 'Penelope' or of some other rose it looks most likely to have originated in their nursery and named after the owner's daughter (I'm guessing).
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Reply #5 of 18 posted 17 JUL 19 by HubertG
Might it be better to have a separate file for 'Miss Rita Petersen'?

From 'The Brisbane Courier' newspaper, 10 Oct 1908, page 4:

"A New Rose.
The new rose "Penelope" has been well established in many local gardens, and during the present season has developed some excellent blooms. Already another variety has been raised, the credit for which is due to Mr. H. A. Petersen, of Hendra. It is a distinct sport from "Penelope" and has been named "Miss Rita Petersen." Specimens exhibited this week mark it as a fine garden and decorative rose. It is a deep rose colour, shading from cerise to dark red, inner petals coppery; outer petals well curved, shading from lemon cream at base to rich claret towards edge. It is said to be a very profuse flowerer of the tea variety, Its growth is vigorous, its foliage deep green, and it is declared to be free from mildew."
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Reply #6 of 18 posted 18 JUL 19 by Patricia Routley
I wonder if H. A. Petersen Ld., George St., Brisbane (advertising in 1923) is the same, or connected with
Petersen’s Acacia Florist, Queen Street, (see 1929 reference for both Penelope and “Rita Petersen”).
I have the 1929 catalogue for Petersen’s Acacia Florist but it mentions no other family connected businesses. I note there is also a C. Peterson {sic] (1931 ref) who had a nursery at Kuraby (1923 ref)

I have added the 1908, 1909 and 1929 references to the ‘Rita Petersen’ page.
Mr. Watkins is probably the same man for whom the 1890 tea rose ‘G. W. Watkins’ was named for.

File note more or less for my own clarification.
I believe all ‘Penelope’ in Australia have turned out to be the tea ‘Hugo Roller’.
“Rita Petersen” in Queensland were noted to be the china ‘Archiduc Charles’.
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Reply #7 of 18 posted 18 JUL 19 by HubertG
Yes, Petersen's nursery and the Acacia florists were the same family. I saw an advert that mentions the Acacia florists by name. I'll find it again.
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Reply #8 of 18 posted 18 JUL 19 by HubertG
This is from 'The Brisbane Courier', 25 Sep 1926, page 5:

"PUBLIC NOTICE.
Mr. Harry A. Petersen, Mrs. M. E. Petersen, and Miss Rita Petersen, who have been associated with Bermuda Art Florists and Petersen's Seeds Ltd., Queen-street, Brisbane, for many years, have now removed to the Acacia Art Florists in O.K. Building, Queen-st., Brisbane, opp- Chapmans Ltd. Mrs. M. E. Petersen Is head floral artist, assisted by Miss Rita Petersen, and Mr. H. A. Petersen is the manager. For Flowers, Seeds, Plants, and Floral Tributes, Acacia Art Florists offer the most modern service. Country orders' given special attention.
TELEPHONE, CENTRAL 7792..
AFTER OFFICE HOURS, M3897."
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Reply #9 of 18 posted 18 JUL 19 by Margaret Furness
We need cuttings from the Tea-like Rita Petersen, especially if it is an unstable sport, in which case we might get a true Penelope. The New Farm Park rose garden lost a lot in the flooding a few years ago. I will try to contact IanM , Lionel and Jennie.
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Reply #11 of 18 posted 20 JUL 19 by Patricia Routley
HubertG, I have scoured my computer and find many reports from Queenslanders who found “Rita Petersen” to be the same rose as ‘Archiduc Charles’. I feel that the Petersen family complimented their daughter on one of the more variable blooms, for which ‘Archiduc Charles’ is known.

Margaret’s thoughts of a “tea-like Rita Petersen” came from my 2010 comment when I thought the bush in New Farm Park looked more tea-like than a china. My impression was quite understandable when one looks at Billy’s 2010 photo no. 160921, and compares it to the miserable chinas growing in my cool climate garden.
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Reply #12 of 18 posted 20 JUL 19 by HubertG
There are a few scenarios possible here, but I guess they all depend on whether the "Rita Petersen" that looks like 'Archduke Charles' is in fact the original 'Miss Rita Petersen'. How certain is this?
It seems very strange to me that a nurseryman would name a rose after his daughter and say it was a sport of 'Penelope' when it was in fact not that. I think it would have been questioned or noticed at the time had that been the case.
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Reply #10 of 18 posted 18 JUL 19 by Patricia Routley
Brilliant, HubertG. Now we know who the lady was.
Could we have more input from others on the rose we all saw in Queensland?
Did it end up being the china ‘Archiduc Charles’ (I did note one enterprising person with a pair of nail clippers hovering over the bush)
More info please Margaret on the “tea-like Rita Petersen”.
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Reply #13 of 18 posted 20 JUL 19 by HubertG
Also, are the centre petals of "Rita Petersen" ever coppery like in the original description of 'Miss Rita Petersen? Or do the outer petals have a "lemon cream" shade at their base?
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Reply #14 of 18 posted 20 JUL 19 by HubertG
I found an 1888 newspaper article which shows that 'Archduke Charles' was available in Alfred Williams' nursery at Brisbane. This at least establishes that 'Archduke Charles' would have been growing around Brisbane for a long time, but it also makes it looks less likely (in my mind at least) that 'Miss Rita Petersen' was not a sport of 'Penelope' (John Williams' creation) and some sport of 'Archduke Charles'.
There is also an 1889 reference to 'Archduke Charles' being exhibited by Bennett of the Standard Nursery at Homebush, Sydney.

From 'The Queenslander' 19 May 1888:
"Among the Nurseries. By Our Agricultural Reporter.
GREEN HILL, RUNCORN.
Mr. Alfred Williams's nursery is well known for its fruit trees and roses [ ... ] Roses are a speciality at Green Hill, for they are the hobby of the proprietor, and he is constantly obtaining the newest varieties from the Southern colonies and from Europe, over 160 having been thus added to his already numerous collection during the past two years. Among these there were in flower at the time of my visit:— [ ... ] Archduke Charles (hybrid China), a profuse bearer of variegated flowers which open rose colour and gradually change to crimson, often striped with white."
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Reply #15 of 18 posted 20 JUL 19 by Margaret Furness
The "Tea-like" comment came from Patricia's initial observation. I've been told that the plant at New Farm Park, and others around, match Archduke Charles.
I don't think we should assume that Penelope didn't have a colour sport.
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Reply #16 of 18 posted 20 JUL 19 by HubertG
I agree, I don't think we can assume that 'Penelope' didn't sport.
I do think that there should be a new separate file for 'Miss Rita Petersen' since we have a date of introduction, breeder and parentage - and leave the "Rita Petersen" as a synonym in the 'Archduke Charles' file for now until more information is available.

Regarding Editor Stewart thinking it was 'General Gallieni' - I found a couple of references in the old newspapers of exhibitions where 'General Gallieni' was shown and where Stewart presided as a judge, so he must have had more than just a passing acquaintance with GG. There's also a vague reference to Stewart sending in a 'catalogue' of the latest roses from Box Hill. It doesn't specifically state Stewart had a nursery but that was the impression I received.
It's hard to imagine someone familiar with 'General Gallieni' mistaking 'Archduke Charles' for it. Just my two cents.
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Reply #17 of 18 posted 26 JUL 19 by Patricia Routley
It would appear that “Rita Petersen” was known as ‘General Gallieni’ from at least 1922 until c1939.
I do not know just when “Rita Petersen” began to be recognised as ‘Archiduc Charles’.

1922. Hazlewood catalogue carried General Gallieni. They said a synonym was ‘'Rita Petersen”. They did not list these roses in subsequent catalogues but Hazlewood was not too fond of tea roses.

1938 T. A. Stewart, was the editor of the ‘Australian Rose Annual’ from 1928 to 1946.
He was a great friend of Alister Clark who named ‘Editor Stewart’ after him.
T. A. Stewart was the man who said “I was amused, however, to see our old friend General Gallieni labelled everywhere as Rita Peterson.” Mr. Stewart would have well known what General Gallieni was like and recognised it well enough to say so.

The man who had the nursery in Box Hill, Victoria was T. G. Stewart.

1939 Heers, Pacific Nurseries, Queensland, catalogue did not list “Archiduc Charles, but carried Hugo Roller and General Gallieni, adding a note that General Gallieni was also known as “Miss Rita Petersen”. He may well have added this note after consulting with T. A. Stewart. I have no earlier Heers catalogues. By 1948 Heers had dropped the “Miss Rita Petersen” synonym.
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Reply #18 of 18 posted 30 JUL 19 by HubertG
Hazlewood's did list 'General Gallieni' in their 1938 and 1939 catalogues but in the secondary list of good varieties still available but not generally well known. 'Penelope' is also on the same list in both catalogues, but there is no mention of a Rita Petersen in either,
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most recent 31 AUG 18 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 12 OCT 11 by IanM
I tend to agree with others who have suggested this rose might actually be 'Princess de Sagan'. It is a reasonably good match for some early illustrations of that rose. It certainly has characteristics that seem closer to a china rose than a typical tea rose.
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Reply #1 of 5 posted 11 MAY 18 by Aussie rose lover
Thisrose 'Camnethan Cherry Red' is not I believe the true Princesses de Sagan. I AM VERY LUCKY and privileged to have seen it as lad of five_ six weeding and old garden for an old lady neighbour in 1968 and latter.The real Princesse is maroon,ox blood mulberry imperial purple velvet red with imperial purple showing upmore as she matures. SEMI double to lightly double dry light sweet tea and her am scents abd very thornyand prickly
A very erect grower up to 9 to 10 feet tall. Not that bushy.after the other princesses de Sagan I will say that Australia's rose currently using that name is a mystery.
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Reply #2 of 5 posted 11 AUG 18 by HubertG
Aussie rose lover, do you think that that bush of Princesse de Sagan might still be growing there?

Also I'm wondering if Betty Berkeley could be a contender for Camnethan Cherry Red.
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Reply #3 of 5 posted 31 AUG 18 by Aussie rose lover
The real princesses de Sagan is growing here as is white lord tarquin and sixteen other tea roses that I am working on.
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Reply #4 of 5 posted 31 AUG 18 by Aussie rose lover
The bush Princesses de Sagan is growing here in Inverell new south wales along with a whole group of others including one that could be Alfred K. Williams which is a HP. And very near thornless.
The real Princesse de Sagan is very thorny and prickly.It doesn't set many seeds either and unlike Francis Dubreuil doesn't have a strong scent but it does have a moderate one. That maybe because of nasal infections over the years my ability to scent roses isn't very good anymore.
Princesse de Sagan also tends to be a very narrow upright shrub.It is only by there greatest of chances that I have found it again.after all these years.but like Francis Dubreuil once seen never forgotten.
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Reply #5 of 5 posted 31 AUG 18 by Aussie rose lover
Betty Berkeley could be a contender for camnethan cherry red but the is another possibility as well. I have narrowed it to two both of which I have seen years ago.I am waiting for new growth this spring before final confirmation I have a name for lady vesteys yellow and another found yellow as well and maybe eight more old teas that have bugged people over the years. With regards to the garden that I used to weed in south Australia for a lady and her son I don't know if it is there anymore as I haven't been back to my home in 20 yes because of straightened circumstances. Which is very annoying.
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most recent 31 JUL 15 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 6 SEP 11 by IanM
It is hard to believe that this lovely little rose may be extinct. It was apparently a very popular rose in its day.
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Reply #1 of 8 posted 7 SEP 11 by Patricia Routley
When there is just two references for the past 100 years, and the rose was said to ball, I can well believe it is extinct.
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Reply #2 of 8 posted 7 SEP 11 by IanM
I note that it is thought to be one of the parent plants of 'Devoniensis' (aka 'Victoria'); the other parent considered to be Park's yellow tea-scented China.
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Reply #3 of 8 posted 7 SEP 11 by jedmar
Do you have any reference for Devoniensis as the pollen parent?
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Reply #4 of 8 posted 8 SEP 11 by IanM
No sorry. Can anyone else answer this please?
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Reply #5 of 8 posted 8 SEP 11 by Cà Berta
In "The Florist, Fruitist and Garden Miscellany", 1854 there is this information, apparently quoted from “Beauties of the rose” by Henry Curtis 1850.

“This fine variety (Devoniensis) was raised by George Foster, Esq., of Oatland, near Devonport (a genuine lover of horticulture and a true florist), who believes that it was produced from the yellow China, fertilised by the yellow Noisette, as he was in the constant habit of impregnating the former with the latter. It flowered the first year from the seed-bed, but was small and weak; on being budded, however, on a strong stock, it proved a very fine variety.”
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Reply #6 of 8 posted 8 SEP 11 by IanM
Thanks Cà Berta, That is an excellent source. I think what Jedmar is asking is are there any roses that have Devoniensis as the pollen parent? I did a search on helpmefind and found two that give Devoniensis as the pollen parent, 'Captain Philip Green' and 'The Puritan'. I assume they are using the accepted way of writing hybrids as seed parent x pollen parent, with the pollen parent appearing last.
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Reply #7 of 8 posted 30 JUL 15 by CybeRose
The previous quotation is not exact:

Beauties of Roses - (1850-1853) 1980 facsimile edition, pp. xxi-xxii
Henry Curtis
Devoniensis

The fortunate raiser of this Rose was the late George Foster, Esq., of Oatland, near Devonport, whose brother Edward W. Foster has kindly favored us with .the following informations as to its parentage, &c. “The Devoniensis was raised by my brother, a genuine lover of horticulture and a true florist. His opinion was that it was produced from the Yellow China by an impregnation of the Yellow Noisette Smithii which was growing alongside it, as he was in the constant habit of impregnating his roses. One of some seeds saved at the same time produced a rose much like the Yellow Noisette, but greatly inferior to Devoniensis; it flowered the first year from the seed bed, but was small and weak, and the second year on being budded on a strong stock, it grew to a very fine flower.”

“In the following year Mr. Pince, of the Firm of Lucombe, Pince, & Co., of Exeter,offered my brother twenty guineas for it, and it then passed into their hands; it is perfectly hardy but requires a rich strong soil.”

Those eminent horticulturists (Messrs. Lucombe & Co.,) state that Mr. Foster thought very highly of some other seedlings that were raised with Devoniensis, but after growing them with every care and comparing them with it, they (Messrs. Lucombe & Co.,) found them too inferior to send out, which shows the lottery attendant on raising seedlings. Devoniensis, however, exhibiting the brilliant prize that may sometimes be realized.
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Reply #8 of 8 posted 31 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
Added.
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most recent 11 FEB 15 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 20 MAY 11 by anerpolytropos
"Princesse de Sagan": My plant here in Richmond Va. from Heritage in Ca. does not look like the plate reproduced by Cass amid the HMF photos. Heritage sells two roses under this name, allowing that one or the other may be the real plant; and I've lost track which of the two mine is.
Temperatures over the last 5 years or so average 101 F at worst for a week or two, low 30's and even a few high 20's F in winter, but this is a terraced garden open to the Winter wind. Rain in spring is generous, the summer is a drought, and rain begins slowly in Aug., with a very few violent Summer storms. Yes the world has been growing warmer gradually.
The Tea I grow is very much like all the photos in HMF. It's about 15 years old, is a modest 5' tall, and unfortunately has a sideways growth to 10', which obstructs a path here. I seldom water and never spray.
Flowers are of medium size, not quite full, plant almost disease free, thorns are smaller and fewer than usual on a Tea. There are a great many in Spring, another in Fall, and the coloring is very attractive indeed, which the HMF photos fail to reproduce. Looking at the plant, in full sun, from a window 50' above, the petals are a dark cerise within, followed by a much lighter pink, and white core that in sum makes me think of strawberries & cream; I can honestly say that the flower seems to glow in the sun like no other in the garden. They seldom open completely but keep a V-shape, and probably are not good for exhibition. Their continual adolescent (not totally open) appearance, not a 'bud', is also very attractive, but they can be coaxed open & then resemble a kind of spiral of color down to a white interior. Since I don't normally like pink flowers, you can trust that this is an acceptable mix. Unfortunatley in Summer the RIchmond heat darkens the rose to a kind of burnt red, and it's then rather ugly, & stems as usual with Teas are always short, so that they're not the best for cut display.
Early this spring I made a mistake & fed 'blossom food', perhaps too strong. The flowers are many but too small & their best coloring not very clear. Not the rose's fault. But in general, taking into account the plant's outward spread, this is a fine bargain for a dependable, carefree rose.
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 21 MAY 11 by anonymous-723819
In my comment(s) on several roses, including this Princesse, I do confuse Vintage Gardens in Sebastopol Ca. with a "Heritage," which may not exist. Sorry for the difficulty.
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Reply #2 of 3 posted 12 OCT 11 by IanM
I wonder if the maximum height of this rose is actually a lot more than stated in the description. It is true that with warmer growth conditions and on better quality soils any rose can far exceed its original height predictions.
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Reply #3 of 3 posted 11 FEB 15 by ken mayberger
Here in Zone 10 Florida our plant exceeds 6 to 7 feet, keeping it cut back to that...and thats after being ripped out of the ground by the last hurricane!
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