HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 26 DEC 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 24 FEB 13
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Reply #1 of 6 posted 25 FEB 13 by Patricia Routley
A diploid = 14 chromosomes.
Many garden roses are tetraploid (28 chromosomes)
So if a diploid (14) is crossed with a tetraploid (28), [28 + 14 = 42 then half that] the result will be a triploid (21). As this is not an even number, some chromosomes are left without an opposite number to pair with, which will create difficulties in trying to breed with a triploid. Have I got that right?
Here are photos of my ‘Baby Faurax’ seedlings two years down the track (see photos previous 'Baby Faurax' comment). A quick look at my seedlings this morning show all are bearing hips. The above para might mean that these seedlings are infertile. But then again, what if the unknown pollen parent was something compatible.
Nobody answer this please. I can barely understand my own muddlings.
Reply #2 of 6 posted 25 FEB 13 by A Rose Man
I don't want to confuse you here, and I'm sorry to reply despite you asking people not to; but:

Your seedlings could be self pollinations which would likely make them diploid.

If they are triploids they can still be fertile to a degree. Some triploids are extremely fertile so fertility isn't a reliable inductor that a rose is triploid.

And it's also possible for dilpoids to produce unreduced gametes (14 chromosome) in their pollen and ovules so some of the seedlings could be tetraploid.

The only way to be sure is to have them tested. Or you could not worry over it and enjoy them for what they are. Some of the most iconic names of the rose breeding world completely ignored the ploidy of the roses they worked with. They just made the crosses and let the roses worry over fertility.
Reply #3 of 6 posted 26 FEB 13 by Patricia Routley
Thanks Mr. Rose Man. Very good advice. However, it is not worry, but interest - and a good deal of love. This little ‘Baby Tooth’ is my favourite - and just look at that ageing! Something only a mother could love.
Reply #5 of 6 posted 26 FEB 13 by A Rose Man
I'm not a big fan of roses that hold their petals to their last breath, but the bloom colour is lovely, and some very popular roses have that tenancy, so I'm sure you're not the only person who would love your ‘Baby Tooth’.

I have a few flawed progeny around myself that I'm more than a little fond of. I've even gone as far as listing one called 'Valmai' on helpmefind. The poor thing blackspots horribly, but it's still one of my favourite seedlings.

With regards to ploidy I must admit that I try to keep things at the diploid level. But that's because rugosas are my main focus. I produced quite a number of triploid rugosa hybrids when I first started hybridising, but they were all dead ends, so for my purposes diploids are more desirable. I am however planing to produce a number of triploids over the next few years to bring desirable traits down from tetraploids to the diploid level for crossing into rugosas. I've also ordered a few triploid cultivars this season for the same purpose.

In the end though, all that really matters is the roses you select as parents work with you in achieving your goals. Mr Moor's unrestrained imagination and "the rose will find the way" philosophy made him one of the greats. And Kim has certainly been very successfully in following that philosophy.
Reply #7 of 6 posted 26 DEC 18 by ms_margaret
Baby tooth is pretty to me.
Reply #4 of 6 posted 26 FEB 13 by Rupert, Kim L.
Hi Patricia, yes, it's possible your seedlings could be diploid or even triploid, but seriously, don't worry about it. As Rose Man offered, some very prolific, well known and successful hybridizers pay no attention to ploidy. Ralph Moore and from a recent interview in the Rose Hybridizers Association newsletter, William Radler (Knock Out's daddy), to name just two. As Mr. Moore loved to say, "the rose will find the way!" and believe me, they usually do.

Early infertility problems in Tea crosses were chalked up to their being triploid, but as has been consistently seen, many triploids are wonderfully fertile, so I believe the Tea fertility issues were likely due to some other issues. Mr. Moore's Golden Angel is triploid and it has been used successfully with many roses. My own Lynnie is triploid and you would be very hard pressed to find another rose with greater fertility and excellent germination.

Personally, I don't usually pay attention to ploidy in planning crosses. I may look out of interest, but more often than not, as Mr. Moore repeatedly stated, the rose does find the way. Good luck!
Reply #6 of 6 posted 26 FEB 13 by Patricia Routley
Thanks Kim and Rose Man. One of these days when I get to 94 and too old for all this [ahem, worrying] and gardening and hard-work nonsense, I am going to live in a unit and have my balcony jam-packed with pots of Ralph Moore’s miniatures. That should keep me happy.

Roses spring up here in this acid soil garden like fleas on a dog’s back. Mostly I just hoe them out, but a few get away from me and I leave them to bloom. I get a bit of amusement from the names, like the pink single multiflora/‘Menja’ lookalike which sprang up under ‘Honey Flow’ and that I’ve called ‘Bloomin Routley!’ and the seedling which looked very much like ‘Thisbe’ copped the name of ‘Fizzbee’. Its good fun!
most recent 2 AUG 16 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 2 AUG 16 by ms_margaret
This rose performs well in the Southeastern United States. I am in Atlanta GA, and the heat and humidity don't bother it much. In fact, it has been blooming very well. The only thing that bothers it is a bug that makes small holes in the leaves. I think it's rose slug. There have been absolutely no black spots, although I have had it for less than a year, so I am not sure if it's a good test yet. I had to order it from Rogue Valley Roses. I would not normally order from them because their roses are a bit expensive, but I am glad I did. This is a wonderful rose. It smells great and looks beautiful. The fragrance seems lemony to me.
most recent 28 AUG 14 SHOW ALL
Initial post 15 OCT 12 by GoldenAge
I got this rose for the wonderful fragrance, but I've grown even more fond of its stems and foliage. I have a new young plant. Even during the summer heat, it was sending out great laterals -- making its claim. I just love the shape of the leaflets. I like Ghislaine de Féligonde for the foliage in the same way, but I like Clotilde's a little more.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 22 AUG 14 by ms_margaret
I smelled this rose at the Atlanta Botanical Garden. The fragrance is so wonderful, like strong old rose scent. I was wondering how the fragrance is classified so I can find roses with similar fragrance.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 28 AUG 14 by GoldenAge
I have been snipping it's buds for most of this season because of the heat and all of it's new growth, so I can't remember it's smell exactly. It's a very healthy plant for me and continues to try to bloom. But I agree! It smells so good -- like powdery perfume. If I remember correctly, this is one of the roses that somewhat reminds me of some of the perfumed toys I had as a child. I am in Atlanta and like the smell of my Spice rose (more of a passion fruit smell for me). It performs well and blooms a lot. You may also like the smell of Stanwell Perpetual or of albas like Félicité Parmentier. I just put in Maggie which I picked up at Antique Rose Emporium. It smells wonderful, but I don't have a full review of it yet. Most of my roses have fragrance, but I can't remember which ones remind me most of Clothilde's scent. I'll have to think more about it in the Spring. I'm sure there are much more experienced rosarians here who can weigh in.

Also, I just read your listing and see you are in Lawrenceville. As far as disease resistance, black spot can be terrible in my garden. I used Cornell Spray this Spring and sulfur last year, but right now I'm trying only frequent deep waterings (so my roses are less stressed by the heat) and snipping all flower buds, so the plants can focus energy elsewhere. I did let more established plants bloom this Spring. I'm thinking this new strategy is key for my plants because my Golden Celebration had terrible black spot in the past but kept blooming. Talk about a gorgeous fragrance! I loved letting it bloom. But now that I'm not letting it bloom. It's still sending out a lot of growth and has very little black spot. Total difference in health! I will post these findings under that rose once I've observed it a little longer. I'm mentioning it to you now that it might help you .
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