HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 6 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 29 AUG by SoCal Coastal Rosarian
There is a growing consensus among Southern California rosarians the this rose may be the best of several cluster blooming yellow floribundas introduced over the years. Atrributes include excellent sprays highly suitable for exhibition, richness and clarity of color, superb remontancy, vigor, an attractive bush and disease resistance. The old favorite among exhibitors, Golden Holstein, is a wee bit short on vigor. I prefer this rose over it's sister seedling, Doris Day.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 6 days ago by Plazbo
Disease resistance there, based on the fair rating in the voting here though it seems its possibly location specific. I know its parent Julia Child is often praised online over there but its ugly and sick here (Sydney, Australia) as soon as summer temps arent killing disease.
most recent 8 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 10 MAY by HubertG
From the 'Rosen-Zeitung' 1895, page 73:

"Neuste Rosen für 1894/95

(Beschreibungen der Züchter)

Strauch wüchsig und sehr remontierend; Blume sehr gefüllt, wundervoll geformt, auf geraden Stielen; Blumenblätter dick, sehr regelmässig rund, leicht aufblühend; Farbe neu in dieser Klasse, carmoisinrot samtig purpur mit lebhaft kirsch- und feuerrotem Widerschein."

My translation:

Newest Roses for 1894/95

(Descriptions of the breeders)

Bush vigorous and very remontant; flower very double, wonderfully shaped, on straight stems; petals thick, very regularly round, opening easily; colour new in this class, crimson-red velvety purple with lively cherry-red and flame-red reflexes.
Reply #1 of 31 posted 10 MAY by Patricia Routley
That's interesting: "petals thick, very regularly round". Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
Reply #2 of 31 posted 14 MAY by HubertG
This is the text accompanying the colour illustration of 'Francis Dubreuil' in the 1896 Rosen-Zeitung, page 41

"1. Francis Dubreuil. (Thee). Dubreuil 1894.
Reichblütigkeit, kräftiger Wuchs, gute Füllung, aufrechte Haltung, elegante Form und eine dunkelblutrote Färbung hatte man bisher noch nicht unter den Theerosen in einer Sorte vereinigt gefunden. In der Dubreuil'schen Züchtung haben wir etwas Hervorragendes dieser Art erhalten, so dass der Züchter mit recht sagen konnte: Die schönste, bekannte "rote Thee". Der Strauch ist wüchsig, sehr verzweigt, dunkelbläulichgrün belaubt und sehr remontierend. Die wundervoll schön geformte mittelgrosse Blume ist sehr gefüllt, wird von geraden, festen Stielen aufrecht getragen, öffnet sich bei jeder Witterung. Die samtig carmoisin purpurrote Farbe wird durch eine feuerroten Widerschein erhellt und leidet weder durch Hitze noch durch Regen leicht. Eine als Knospe geschnittene Blume dauert im Glase Wasser wohl 8 Tage lang. Für Blumenbinderei-Geschäfte wird sie ohne Fehl eine viel begehrte und gesuchte Schnittrose sein. Ihre Massenanpflanzung kann daher nur dringend empfohlen werden. Dass sie auch wegen ihrer seltenen Vorzüge schnell erkannt wurde, beweisst eine überaus starke Nachfrage in Pflanzen, sodass dieses Frühjahr wohl in keinem Geschäfte eine kräftige Pflanz unverkauft blieb. Auch dürfte sie zu Gruppenpflanzungen Verwendung finden und grosse Wirkung erzielen, doch besorge man ihr kräftige, humusreiche, lehmige Erde. Die in den letzten Jahren in den Handel gebrachten dunkelroten Thee sind von "Francis Dubreuil" alle in den Schatten gestellt. Ob sie eine Treibrose sein wird, können wir bis jetzt noch nicht sagen.
Reply #3 of 31 posted 15 MAY by Patricia Routley
Thank you HubertG. Reference added.
Reply #4 of 31 posted 15 MAY by HubertG
I should have time to do the translation tonight, Patricia.
Reply #5 of 31 posted 15 MAY by HubertG
My translation:

1. Francis Dubreuil. (Tea). Dubreuil 1894. Amongst the Tea Roses, one had not found freedom of flowering, strong growth, good petalage, upright held flowers, elegant shape and a dark blood-red colouring combined in the one variety until now. In this Dubreuil creation we have obtained something outstanding of this kind, so that the breeder can rightly say: the most beautiful known "red Tea". The bush is vigorous, very branched, foliaged dark bluish-green and very remontant. The wonderful beautifully shaped medium-sized flower is very double, borne upright on straight firm stems, opening in any weather. The velvety crimson purple-red colour is lit with a fire-red reflection and neither through heat nor through rain does it suffer easily. A flower cut as a bud lasts well for 8 days in a glass of water. For florist businesses it will become a very coveted and sought after cut rose without fail. Therefore their mass planting can only be highly recommended. The fact that it was also quickly recognised because of its rare merits, established an exceedingly strong demand for plants, so that this spring hardly any vigorous plant remained unsold in the stores. It should also find use for group plantings and achieve great effect, but still, one should give it strong humus-rich, loamy soil. 'Francis Dubreuil' eclipses all dark red Teas introduced into commerce in recent years. Whether it will become forcing rose, we cannot yet say.

I hope it's still English. I've tried to translate it as literally as possible without it sounding too Germanic.
It would be interesting for someone who grows this rose to do the 8 day vase-life test.
Reply #6 of 31 posted 15 MAY by Patricia Routley
The translation added. Thanks HubertG. The 8-day test in different seasons. I have found that the well-watered autumn roses last longer.
Reply #7 of 31 posted 15 MAY by Margaret Furness
A better test of a true Francis Dubreuil would be the scent; if it has any, it should be Tea-scented. See old references.
Reply #8 of 31 posted 16 MAY by HubertG
There is that reference that says it has a distinct apple scent.

Patricia, I left out an 'a' in the last sentence of that translation - it should be " become a forcing rose".

If the rose grown as 'Francis Dubreuil' lasts only a few days in water then that might be an argument that it isn't the original rose.
Although I haven't grown FD (and the main reason was really that it was not meant to be the correct variety), but I have to ask, since it isn't 'Barcelona' after all, what tea is it? I have to admit that it does rather match the German descriptions - regular rounded petals, dark blue-green foliage, colour description etc.
I think it might need to be reappraised as possibly the correct variety.
Reply #9 of 31 posted 16 MAY by Margaret Furness
No, I can't buy anyone describing the rose currently-sold-as FD, as scentless. When the designated scent-testers for the Rose Trial grounds in Adelaide Botanic Gardens are assessing new varieties, and find they need to re-set 10 (like setting white balance!), they go and stick their noses in "Not Francis Dubreuil".
The Tea book includes an illustration of FD from Rosen-Zeitung 1896, showing long pointed leaves. The authors conclude their discussion of Not FD by saying "...we just wish that we could call it a Tea!".
Reply #10 of 31 posted 16 MAY by HubertG
Yet the illustration from Betten's Die Rose 1903 doesn't show a long bud or leaves. Which one is correct? The Betten illustration looks more realistically drawn than the Rosen-Zeitung illustration.

I'm only going by the photos I've seen, but if this was the FD introduced in the 1890's, from its habit and freedom of flowering it wouldn't have been classed as a Hybrid Perpetual, a Bourbon or any other rose class at the time. No doubt a red tea would have had a little bit of 'something else' in its breeding to give it its colour and that perhaps makes it less typical of the appearance of the 'purer' teas, but like I say, how would this particular rose be classed back then?

I've only seen it a few times in person at visits to Parramatta Park in Sydney years ago. It certainly did have a good fragrance but I couldn't describe its scent after all this time.

At least we know it came from Sangerhausen. There can't be too many candidates in the early lists that match it.
Reply #11 of 31 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
Here's an early American reference describing FD as "very fragrant":
From G. R. Gause's 1905 Catalogue of Roses (on the inside front cover)

A new red Tea Rose of unusual merit, with fine, large, double flowers, which, in color, are equal to the best of our deep-colored Hybrid Perpetuals. The flowers are large, very full and double, with thick, regularly arranged petals. Color is red, with velvety shadings; rich and very fragrant."
Reply #12 of 31 posted 28 MAY by Margaret Furness
The rose photographed in 1906 isn't what is grown as FD now.
Reply #13 of 31 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
I just uploaded the illustration of Francis Dubreuil on the cover of the Gause 1905 catalogue. Unfortunately, it's one of those catalogue illustrations which aren't really an accurate depiction but probably have some semblance of truth. It actually looks half-way between the 1906 photo and the currently grown FD.
Reply #14 of 31 posted 28 MAY by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. I have added the reference. Is the spelling in the original text Francis or Francois?
Reply #15 of 31 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
Your welcome. In the original text it is spelt "Francois".
Reply #16 of 31 posted 31 MAY by Plazbo
I'm probably being dumb but are you calling it "Not Francis Dubreuil" because we aren't sure what is being sold in Australia is actually Barcelona? Or is it fairly certain it is Barcelona?

Just a little confused about whether I should be running it through my diploid lines or pairing it with something like Rhapsody In Blue instead...I'm assuming the latter based on a lot of comments on here.
Reply #17 of 31 posted 31 MAY by HubertG
Plazbo, I'm confused too haha. Check out "David Martin's No41" which is the most likely candidate for the 1932 'Barcelona' (in fact in my opinion there is no reason to doubt that it is Barcelona).
Somehow the rose distributed as Francis Dubreuil had been confused for Barcelona in the US hence it wasn't thought to be FD, and so has become NotFD. Anyway, that's my take on it in a nutshell anyway.
I'm sure one of the Tealadies could expand on this.

I still think that it could be the original Francis Dubreuil. As I've mentioned previously, even though it has some atypical tea characteristics, it doesn't easily fall into another class either. It does match early descriptions especially the rounded regularly arranged velvety petals, and the dark bluish-green foliage. And it did come from Sangerhausen labelled as Francis Dubreuil. True, the bloom doesn't look a lot like the 1906 photo, but some of the photos here do show recurving petal edges. It certainly (to my mind) doesn't seem anything like what one would expect a Hybrid Tea given commercial release in the 1930's to be, so isn't Barcelona.

As to its ploidy, who knows? The original FD would most likely to have come through one of those early red teas like Duchess of Edinburgh which was introduced as a tea but clearly had hybrid characteristics, perhaps self pollinated and retaining enough Tea characteristics but developing the velvety red blooms. So if it was say a self pollination of a triploid that occasionally set hips, it could end up being a diploid or a tetraploid. This is just my speculation of course. Just for comparison of a similar possible breeding, look at 'Princess Bonnie' which is from a {T x (T x HP)} cross.
Reply #18 of 31 posted 31 MAY by Margaret Furness
Sangerhausen has been through two world wars, and every big collection or garden or nursery has mislabels. Especially if the labels are small enough for the public to move around. We kept updating the labels at Renmark as new information came in, but there are still some I'm uneasy about or would change if it was worth spending more there at present. For example, what we have as Excellenz von Schubert and Merveille des Rouges are pretty clearly incorrect.
Reply #19 of 31 posted 8 JUN by HubertG
I wonder if 'Marion Dingee' might be a possibilty for this rose. There are plenty of references online but I haven't come across a reference to its fragrance. The illustrations suggest a cupped shape and often the references describe a very dark colour. Here's the coloured plate for 'Marion Dingee' from Dingee's 1892 catalogue. Dingee's give the breeding as 'Comtesse de Casserta' x 'Duchess of Edinburgh'.
Reply #20 of 31 posted 8 JUN by Patricia Routley
You might be on to something HubertG. The bloom shape is about right, the colour is about right, the "short compact" growth is about right.
We have:
1889 Marion Dingee (Early illustrations show a shorter bloom)
1894 Francis Dubreuil (Early illustrations, 1896 and 1906, show a taller bloom)
I'll search for 'Marion Dingee' in Australia later in the day.
Reply #21 of 31 posted 8 JUN by HubertG
What's a bit out of place though is the lack of fragrance in the descriptions. Dingee's other red Tea was Princess Bonnie which they lauded as one of the sweetest scented roses available. One would think to promote their own rose (in Marion Dingee), if it had a good fragrance, they would at least mention its scent when it was introduced. I don't think Princess Bonnie is a contender from early references and illustrations, by the way.

It is interesting however to compare the buds in the coloured illustration I posted above with the photo Tomartyr posted on 30 Nov 2011, photo Id 187697.
Reply #22 of 31 posted 14 days ago by billy teabag
A very quick response before a more considered one.
Reliable early Australian references to Francis Dubreuil tell us this was one of the big Teas. From memory, the 1930s reference to roses in NSW tells us it was 9 feet tall.
Even in the best conditions, with the best care and attention, the rose sold as Francis Dubreuil struggles to reach half that height.
Reply #23 of 31 posted 14 days ago by Patricia Routley
In 1893 (four years after 'Marion Dingee' was introduced,) it was said to have a "short compact growth". The 1930s was about 60 years later. I hope you will share some of those references Billy. I probably have them, but I added 15 refs to 'Marion Dingee' yesterday and must move on. (My Francis Dubreuil' manages to make about 2 feet.)
Reply #24 of 31 posted 13 days ago by billy teabag
The ref I was remembering is this one from George Knight's 1931 article Tea Roses in New South Wales which has already been added:
"What an opportunity is offered to some of the authorities in connection with the public gardens of the State to plant out some of the most vigorous of these old tea Roses and grow them into large shrubs. There is no more striking feature than to see a Rose bush eight or nine feet high, built in proportion and covered in bloom. I would suggest as some of the most suitable for this purpose : Corallina, Mme Charles, Dr. Grill, Francois Dubreuil, Mdlle. Christine de Noue and Mrs Dunlop Best. The latter makes a nice bush up to six feet. p104 Australian Rose Annual 1931.

The "Not Francis Dubreuil" we used to have also only managed about 2'6" in height and width before losing the will to live.
To my eye it looks like a hybrid of a China rose and something HP-ish.

I'll check to see whether I have anything else on my computer that hasn't been added to HMF and will have a look on Trove.
Reply #25 of 31 posted 13 days ago by HubertG
Maybe another possibility to consider is 'Friedrichsruh' from 1907. It was a cross from 'Princesse de Bearn' x 'Francis Dubreuil' and appeared to be a shorter-growing bushy rose, Sangerhausen had it in their collection and gave it a 7/10 for fragrance. That's assuming of course that the rose grown as 'Friedrichsruh' at Sangerhausen now is incorrect. And despite being classed as a Hybrid Tea it had short stems and nodding flowers.
Reply #26 of 31 posted 13 days ago by billy teabag
Worth a closer look, I think, HubertG. It's not uncommon to see mixups between roses in large collections that are close alphabetically.
Short stems and nodding flowers on a shorter plant is a good start.
Reply #27 of 31 posted 12 days ago by HubertG
That's a good point Billy. Not only is there the possibility of them being confused if they looked similar but also as their names both start with FR, a mixup could have occurred in the cataloguing. Possibly.
There are quite a few references for 'Friedrichsruh' in the Rosen-Zeitung. One describes 'Souvenir de Clos Vougeot' as in the style of a paeony "like Friedrichsruh". I'm not sure how paeony-like FD is. Perhaps a bit.
Reply #28 of 31 posted 10 days ago by Patricia Routley
I've added a few more refs for 'Friedrichsruh'.
Reply #29 of 31 posted 10 days ago by true-blue
Hubert, sorry to barge in.
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest.

However, I doubt if Francis Dubreuil was a fragrant rose. If you check the original advertisement in Journal des roses, thee's no mention of that:
Here is the text, translated from the original:

Mr. F. Dubreuil, rose-grower, 146, route de Grenoble, of Montplaisir-Lyon has two new roses for sale; the descriptions follow:
Francis Dubreuil (Tea). — A robuste and very remontant shrub, the flower is very full, of an admirable form, upright on rigid peduncles at the tips of the canes, with thick petals, very regularly rounded, in gracefully developed curves of a cup with softened contours, opening with extreme ease, of a color absolutely novel amongst the Teas, crimson red, velvety purple with vivid cherry-amaranth highlights, the bud is an elongated ovoid shape of great beauty.
Due to the perfection of its form and the intensity of its purple and amaranth hues, this variety constitutes the most beautiful red Tea Rose known
This variety has been awarded: 1) the silver medal of the Society of Practical Horticulture of the Rhône; 2) a prize at the Universal Exposition at Lyon, concourse of Jue 1894; 3) a first-class certificate from the Lyonnaise Horticultural Association.
Reply #30 of 31 posted 9 days ago by HubertG
True-blue, no need to apologise. :-) The omission of the description of a fragrance when any rose is introduced is rather suspicious of it not having much scent. However an omission doesn't necessarily mean it didn't have a fragrance. There are other references which say it was fragrant, but when they come from catalogues trying to sell stock, you need to be a bit discerning, I suppose, as to whether they are exaggerations. The early apple fragrance description intrigues me.

Patricia, wow, you've been busy adding to 'Friedrichsruh'! Last I looked there were only half a dozen or so references. I want to add some more from the Rosen-Zeitung but maybe not till the weekend. One describes the buds and leaves in detail (including a bud photo), another says how it is mildew-free and the fragrance is intoxicating and emits particularly after rain. The mildew-free description is interesting because the few photos here of 'Friedrichsruh' from Sangerhausen show a somewhat mildew affected plant! (well it looks that way to me).

What's interesting about 'Friedrichsruh' is that it is a child of 'Francis Dubreuil'. If only we had an inexpensive genetic test to find out how much two roses are related to each other!
Reply #31 of 31 posted 8 days ago by true-blue
Hubert, if memory serves me well, none of the French sources, noted FD as fragrant, hence my conclusion that is most probably not fragrance worthy, hence my conclusion.
most recent 7 JUN HIDE POSTS
Initial post 4 JUN by JasonSims1984
I bet this would be an excellent rose to hybridize with. I mean, it's a tetraploid, so it's fully compatible with modern HTs. So basically, this rose could be a good scaffold for a more formal flower. I could imagine a cross with Mr. Lincoln to give it better disease resistance. It has all of the basic genetics for rebloom and good foliage, and the flower form is nice and simple. It probably carries genes for damask fragrance.
Reply #1 of 6 posted 6 JUN by Give me caffeine
Mr. Lincoln doesn't have particularly good resistance to disease. It survives defoliation because of its inherent vigour, but it's not resistant as such.
Reply #3 of 6 posted 6 JUN by JasonSims1984
Oh, yeah, when I say "give it better disease resistance" I'm referring to improving Mr. Lincoln. I think Portlandica and Autumn Damask could be kind of a good fallback point for creating better hybrid teas. I also think that some species roses would be a good idea to add back into the rose gene pool to get better disease resistance and vigor. Rugosa, bracteata, moschata, and fedtschenkoana are all really good.
Reply #5 of 6 posted 7 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
'Duchess of Portland' gets blackspot very badly.
Reply #6 of 6 posted 7 JUN by Give me caffeine
Aha. Yes that makes sense. :)
Reply #2 of 6 posted 6 JUN by Plazbo
If going for red, Roundelay would probably be a better option than Mr Lincoln
Reply #4 of 6 posted 6 JUN by JasonSims1984
What do you think about Dark Desire by Kordes? I have heard a lot of good things about its disease resistance.
most recent 27 MAY SHOW ALL
Initial post 24 MAY by JasonSims1984
Does anyone have any experiemce growing this one? Is it hardy? This could be very useful for hybridizing.
Reply #1 of 19 posted 25 MAY by Plazbo
I don't but agree it likely would. If i had access id be using it or its cousins.
What i find interesting is how various rose species in commerce are distributed though. Some of the most semi-tropical species not being available in Australia but are in places like Denmark, its a little humorous
Reply #2 of 19 posted 25 MAY by JasonSims1984
Considering the fact that it has cold hardy species used several places in its lineage, and then BAM clinophylla, it's kind of an exciting marriage of genetics.

I just got a Pink Surprise, which is rugosa x bracteata, which is the same idea of North meets South. I just really like the idea of that. It means that factors that weren't possible to combine before are now accessible.

Imagine a Mermaid type climbing monster rose that will survive a zone 4 winter. Or breeding a rose that will grow right up to the waterline on the beach in the deep South.

Having access to the untapped rebloom genetics and heat tolerance of a sun loving tropical species is a big deal. Plus, doesn't clinophylla survive root drown from being submerged in water for extended periods? That's a big deal, too.

Also, I definitely agree on rose availability. It's impossible to find Blue Bayou in the States, but it's common as hell in Australia apparently. It's such a good color.

Then there's the fact that a major breakthrough rose like Blue For You or Rhapsody in Blue (just staying with a theme here) are available abundantly for a year or two and then drop off the market completely exactly when you've just found a place to plant another rose.

And then there's the fact that they're named 50 different names. How hard is it to just translate a rose name to another language? If it's named after a famous person who isn't well known elsewhere, it should just inspire people to google that person. LOL. People shouldn't make their decision on a plant because it's named after some stupid celebrity like the Kardashian skanks. hehe.
Reply #3 of 19 posted 25 MAY by Plazbo
I believe so. I imagine it would be a good rose to work with for more northern states here given heat and tendency to flood every other year. I just think it's funny that to get seed with clinophylla genes I'd likely have to rely on someone from a far colder climate which seems humorous to me. Technically may be able to get something from Simon Voorwinde since he at least had seedlings of the species back in 2010 (based on the gallery) ... he seems a bit MIA lately though, will see

I wouldn't say Blue Bayou is common as hell here but it is fairly easily accessible if you actively look for it though. Blue Moon, Angel Face and Man of Steel are the "standard" roses in that lavender colour that you'll see being sold everywhere (body bag style).

We don't really have the breakout rose disappearing issue in Australia, if it's a break out rose the market will get saturated with it....but everything is grafted here so propagation is a bit more forgiving and faster than having to root cuttings like seems to be common over there. We more have the issue of the second tier roses never being released here, like we get the Knock Out roses (some only being released this year...) but not the rest of Raddlers work (I really want RADsweet....or Apple Jack but I doubt either will ever be released have a bunch of Lord Penzance seedlings at the moment canina meiosis though :/ )
Reply #4 of 19 posted 25 MAY by JasonSims1984
Interesting. So it's not quite as different as I thought. I'm not sure what the process of international plant shipping is like. I am probably going to get applejack at my new house. I'd be happy to send you cuttings of it clandestine style when it gets big enough by next year. You'd have to track me down, but I don't see why not. :)
Reply #5 of 19 posted 25 MAY by Plazbo
It wouldn't get through customs, seeds can come through legally and easily, but other plant material is difficult and expensive and has to go through quarantine and a lot of paperwork. But I will follow up with you about any AppleJack (OP) seed in the future if my Lord and Lady Penzance crosses don't work as planned (surprisingly Lord Penzance seed have had a reasonable germination rate within 2 months of being sown straight from hips, hopefully the canina meiosis breaks)
Reply #6 of 19 posted 25 MAY by JasonSims1984
I have actually had a lot of thoughts about creating scented foliage roses. It would be really exciting to cross the pine, pepper, and incense scents of fedtschenkoana, foetida, and primula, with the apple foliage of rubiginosa and beggeriana. When combined in the right ratios, there are enough rebloom genes for it to be modern and interesting.
Reply #7 of 19 posted 25 MAY by Plazbo
Its essentially what I'm doing. Do have Foetida proper coming in the next month. Add in Du Japon (extreme moss with mossing in its leaves) and lemon delight (lemon scented moss) and i have the building blocks....leaning more towards a fruity scent than peppery/woody/incense but will be using Helga Brauer (first gen crest, peppery) and some glandular multiflora (pine/woody) because they are glandular and half the battle ia likely maintaining glands while adding in a bit of moderns (i suspect some of raddlers plants may be useful there, they have a lot of Applejack and he's already had one foilage fragrant plant that he released so the genes are probably in there just blockd due to the lack of glandular foliage)
Reply #8 of 19 posted 25 MAY by Margaret Furness
The fines for illegal postage of plant material to / from overseas are massive for both sender and recipient, even if the recipient didn't ask for it and didn't know it was coming. No rose is worth the risk of transmitting disease or pests.
Reply #9 of 19 posted 25 MAY by JasonSims1984
I didn't know Will Raddler was doing Applejack crosses and foliage fragrance. I know that Carefree Beauty is a second generation from AJ.

Carefree Beauty was a parent of Knockout. So all of that lines up nicely. I like your idea of crosses of mosses. Lol. Crosses of mosses. I'm somehow extremely entertained by that.

I think Lord and Lady Penzance are pretty much just dyyyyying to get down. It's been a couple centuries and no one has hooked Mr. and Mrs. up together yet. lol. I think that would be a ticket to having a healthy foetida bicolor that's fertile. It's supposedly not easy to work with the species directly.

Foetida is a tet, and it's in the spinossissima group, and it seems to cross with spinossissima as in x Harisonii. So bicolor to x Harisonii is a logical cross to get a healthy version of it. Or to spin.

Fedtschenkoana is in that same group I believe, and it's a tetraploid too. That's why it has a linseed oil smell and fragrant foliage, so foetida bicolor x fedt is probably a winner. Fedt has a white flower, so it may just accept the yellow and red color directly. Or use Autumn Damask or x Portlandica. Maybe you can get a reblooming single or semidouble bicolor. That sounds like a good match. It's something I want to do too actually.

It sounds like you have a great plan for this scented foliage stuff.

We could trade seeds at some point if you like.
Reply #10 of 19 posted 26 MAY by Plazbo
I'm not sure if he intentionally went for fragrant foliage but if you look at the first gen offspring of Applejack you'll see 5 of his roses
If you look at his lines they often cross with each other, so many of the roses he has bred have Applejack multiple times in their lineage especially when you add Carefree Beauty.
Then you have his Alaska with the briar scented foliage
which is descended on both sides by his lines and while only 1 side of the tree is there in any detail if you look at those lines and follow them back Applejack is in most of them and wouldn't be surprising if the same holds true with RADlots. So while Alaska may be a fluke, it seems more likely that at least some of the genes involved are in many of his roses, they are possibly recessive or there's a dominant gene that prevents the leaves being glandular or something.

Already thought of that too, will be using Golden Wings, Stanwell Perpetual and probably Lord Penzance (and other things) with Foetida....possibly not the easiest plants to work with but not impossible or super difficult either.

Fedtschenkoana is a plant I'm indecisive about, I'm not sure it particularly adds to what I'm trying to achieve scent wise, it's a woodsy smell rather than a sweet fruity smell. It's probably more something I'll visit down the line rather than adding to the initial mix and complicating things or ending up with so many seedlings that produce foliage scents that aren't my main goal. Would add R. micrantha if it were available though.

I have plans, it's just a matter if they work or not. Will be interesting to see what comes out of the Lord Penzance seedlings that have been germinating this last couple of weeks and what will come out of crossing them with each other :D
Reply #11 of 19 posted 26 MAY by JasonSims1984
I forgot how much Griffith Buck stuff Will Raddler uses.
I know that it makes sense superficially that linebreeding with Applejack will get you where you want to go. However, Applejack's foliage fragrance is milder than eglanteria or the Penzaneanas. So I wouldn't hang all of your hopes on needing to use Applejack specifically. Supposedly a lot of yellow breeding lines carry foliage fragrance that pops in and out of the generations. Goldbush might be something you can locate in AU. Greenmantle is legendary for its thorns, but less well known is that fact that it reblooms sporadically. That means that if you cross it with a stronger rebloomer, you will get a few rebloomers that will flower quicker than usual from seed. Amy Robsart is like that, too, I think. In fact, you could cross those two and maybe get a more reliable rebloom.

Someone else on here told me that the pine resin scent will be inherited simply as a generic gene for foliage scent. If you cross it with other stuff, the next generations will be dominant for their own scent, which will simply be stronger due to carrying forward the foliage scent gene. So yeah, I would definitely be using fedtschenkoana.

In fact, the slightly reblooming Penzance hybrids are all getting their rebloom from having Hybrid Perpetual parents. HPs get all their bloom power from Autumn Damask, which is a fedtschenkoana hybrid. Yes, HPs have some chinensis blood, too, but fedt is the origin of it, and moschata to a lesser extent.

Fedt is also the origin of all reblooming moss roses. The Centifolias sported the crested mosses, and the Damasks sported the rougher mosses. It may not be a mutation so much as a result of crossing roses that are already glandular with roses that have prickles. The glands are modifications of the same structure that prickles are made from. When enough genes for glandular sepals overpower the genes for prickles, large glands are produced.

So, if you were to use fedt, just make it an early part of the line.

Also, have you heard of beggeriana? It's a thornless, reblooming species with eglanteria scented foliage. Schneezwerg has beggeriana as a parent, and rugosa adds to its rebloom, and it still carries scented foliage.

It occurred to me that I can send you pollen, too. We will have to keep in touch because I like all of your ideas with this.
Reply #12 of 19 posted 26 MAY by Plazbo
Goldbush isn't here...neither are Joseph Rothmund or Obergärtner Wiebicke (both first gen Magnfica, one on either side of Applejack) or Magnifica I've checked :P It's part of the reason I'm back at Lord and Lady Penzance. Rubiginosa is considered a weed in South East Australia and banned from commerce in some states (it's hybrids are not though...). There are feral populations around (apparently) I just have never spotted them while driving past to check if they are more fragrant than the LP's.

No Greenmantle or Amy Robsart here, it really does seem to be just Lord and Lady Penzance via commercial means unless there's some tiny obscure nursery I haven't come across yet. So not likely to see reliable rebloom for a while....but who knows one of the seedlings out there may be a freak that reblooms despite it's parentage.

Yes I have heard of Beggeriana and I have Schneezwerg (I also like it's higher leaflet count than the usual 5-7...its part of "nice to have" set of traits I'll be selecting for), I have a lot of Schneewerg x diploid china (juvenile) rebloomers and while the fertility is expected to be terrible (Felicitas Svejda paper "REPRODUCTIVE CAPACITY OF F1 HYBRIDS FROM ROSA RUGOSA AND CHINENSIS CULTIVARS") fully fertile offspring are a rare occurrence (rare to the tune of 14 of the 2047 seedlings, the paper does give idea's to increase the odds a bit) it only takes 1 with the wanted genes to move forward.

I've looked at and considered most options towards foliage fragrance, first step though is moving those genes (without losing too much fragrance) into juvenile reblooming plants so I don't need to wait 2 or 3+ years per generation and hopefully aren't monster sized (since every option available here seems to want to use up a lot of space...)

Pollen would be the same as live plant material, huge fines. Australia (and New Zealand) being an island with no land bridges often results in very very tight custom/quarantine laws, there's strict laws also between the mainland and Tasmania (smaller island to the south) and the east and west coasts....there's a lot of environmental laws to prevent invasive spread and potential disease/pest spread. Seed is the only legal option that won't be seized on arrival into the country without spending thousands in going through quarantine (where a lot of things will die) and a lot of paper work.
Reply #13 of 19 posted 27 MAY by JasonSims1984
Would you like some eglanteria seeds? I think Lord and Lady Penzance may be about as strong, or possibly stronger for foliage scent. That being said though, there is natural variation and with seeds you can plant 150 or so and let them grow for 6 months, then find the more vigorous or smelly, or interesting ones. Plus, you can select 5 or 6 great plants to use as parents rather than using only on clone which helps reduce the inbreeding stress.

I have no problem sending you some seeds of the species. Very likely I'll be buying an ounce of seeds for like $20 and I can easily just give you half of it. I like the project you're working on. It's no problem, really.

I am not at my regular house so it might be a couple weeks before I can get it out to you. You can send me your address to my email, which is listed here.

You also may want to go seek out the various wild roses in your area. It is always very rewarding, and you're guaranteed to have a plant that will grow well in your location.
Reply #14 of 19 posted 27 MAY by JasonSims1984
I didn't realize chinensis and rugosa were so incompatible. I guess it sort of makes sense though, because it has a big overlap in distribution -- one is from China, one from Japan. There would be several intermediate forms, natural hybrids, and manmade hybrids by now. But why does tea rose x rugosa work? Or HP? I think rugosa is actually very compatible with other cinnamomea, and the rebloom in a lot of species other than chinensis has not really been fully appreciated yet.

I still really think fedt and beggeriana are the better species to use for this project. Reblooming, fragrant foliage is your goal anyway.

Try stuff like Grandma's Hat or Maggie. They're either the same rose, or two that are just very similar. They have fragrant pepper scented foliage. I'm pretty sure it would just enhance the apple scent. I also think the ploidy issues will be easier to resolve working with tets. Isn't rubiginosa/eglanteria a hexaploid? Yeah, tets or triploids would be an easier translation than dips probably but I don't know for sure.
Reply #15 of 19 posted 27 MAY by Margaret Furness
Plenty of feral eglanteria around here - can send Plazbo seed if the birds haven't taken it. We also have a roadside Penzance hybrid in the Barossa Valley, collected by Ozoldroser - I think Amy Robsart was suggested for it. Send her a pm about sharing plant material.
Reply #16 of 19 posted 27 MAY by Ozoldroser
Seed meeds to have documentation too now. No backyard seed allowed in anymore. Check the website for the new quarantine rules Plazbo.
Reply #17 of 19 posted 27 MAY by Plazbo
I can't find the reference (in regards to Rosa, I know permits are required for a number of other genus) on the BICON website....but our government websites are generally far from clear and consistent so may be on a different government site?

Never mind, double checked via lord google and found it via checking blog posts...that says something about the BICON website and it's lack of usability. It does leave me questioning how they define commercial though...those options seem far less strict than laboratory papers.
Reply #18 of 19 posted 27 MAY by Plazbo
There's Calocarpa which is a fertile rugosa x chinensis, so it's not an impossibility just an improbability like Svejda's crosses show. It's probably all a bit of a numbers game (and luck) to find the extreme exceptional outcomes from widely different roses. If they cross easily enough and seed is easy to acquire though, why not do enough for 100 or 1000 seedlings and find the very few that stand out from the average.

There are other ways to avoid inbreeding stress, ie (AxB)x(AxC). Scarlet Moss is an example of it (where A is Dortmund or Fairy Moss, both appear repeatedly on both sides with different partners each time).

No Grandma's Hat here either :D options are limited, so having to be creative and reinvent some wheels.

We do have a Maggie here, but I can't see any reference to it have fragrant foliage. I do tend to agree that the pepper scent would probably mix in a pleasant way with the briar scent though. Do have Gloire des Rosomanes though which gets mentioned often as having peppery scented bits.

Pentaploid (4x egg, 1x pollen), how the Penzance hybrids behave though is an unanswered question. It has been shown that the canina meiosis does break eventually when crossing out. Magnifica is possibly broken since it's the most recent sweet briar in Applejack, it's on both sides and was a pollen parent in both cases. Would be very interested in seeing someone use Magnifica pollen with a glandular tetraploid as I suspect it'll have the sweetbriar fragrance on a tetraploid with normal meiosis....possibly a shortcut there that I can't use, no Magnifica here lol.
Reply #19 of 19 posted 27 MAY by JasonSims1984
(A x B) x (A x C) is a strategy that does work, but it's still mating stepchildren together.

It's a nice cooincidence that you mention Svejda. The Canadian Explorer roses started from Kordesii, species, and a few hybrids. Kordesii is mated very closely together in that line. They're all great for hardiness, but only a couple of them are actually vigorous.

Applejack itself may get away with being a tad inbred, but the fact that Magnifica is on both sides means that crossing Applejack back to Applejack is going to start causing a general and rapid breakdown in vigor in your line if it's used more than a few times. A hybrid like that is better for bringing rebloom into your project than it is for foliage fragrance.

In other words, without some genetic variation, you might isolate apple scent but it will smell cheaper and more intensely sour. That apple note is accompanied just slightly by a cat pee sort of chemical note. You might end up enhancing its unpleasant quality rather than isolate a fresh smell.

With all that feral sweetbriar around, why not just cross a good wild one with mutabilis, or one of the strong chinensis? That will give you a sporadic reblooming sweetbriar in the first generation. Then cross another strong wild sweetbriar found in a totally different location with a reblooming moss. That brings you a line that you can zip together in various ways. Use Penzance hybrids and reblooming mosses, fedtschenkoana, beggeriana, hybrid perpetuals, etc. You don't need Applejack.

I still have no problem sending you seeds of anything I work on that would probably help you.

You know, several species have shown spontaneous remontancy. You might be able to find a wild reblooming population.

How cold do winters get for you? (-5c maybe?). You could get really inventive and cross sweetbriars with species like bracteata which rebloom continuously and eat houses. Then cross that result with your mosses. You will reinvent roses altogether that way.

I plan on making some crosses with that ideology in mind. Really strong, invasive roses with dainty moss roses and such.

Beggeriana/Schneezwerg are probably every bit as fragrant and reblooming as Applejack.

Truthfully, to me, the apple scent is just a tad foetid and cat pissy in Applejack. It needs the influence of pine and lemon and pepper to make it something that I would really get excited about.

Rosa primula is rampageous and it smells like nutmeg. You can't do a project like this without incorporating the complex scented stuff. The fruity smell will be there for sure, but you will give the whole project some serious credibility if you make a rose that smells like a cologne from the leaves to the flowers.

Imagine a rose oil industry that could press rose oil from the flowers and make eau de parfum from the leaves.

That would be really impressive.
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