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Initial post
10 JAN 21 by
petera
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I can't see any consistent difference between "Grandma Pfeilers" and 'Laurent Carle'. I think they are the same rose. I have uploaded a bunch of pictures comparing buds, leaves and prickles in my garden. The colour of the prickles differs but they vary between stems of different vigour and age on the same plant. Both plants are on John N's multiflora root stock but 'Laurent Carle' has been in the ground for about 4 years while this is only the second growing season for "Grandma Pfeilers". Despite that GP is almost as large a plant under very similar growing conditions.
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Gratitude to you for doing this close comparison work and sharing your findings petera.
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#2 of 12 posted
11 JAN 21 by
petera
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Billy,
Are there any other characteristics you think I should check?
Peter
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Are the stamen filaments and anthers basically the same colours in both your roses? Do the innards match up? Apart from that, I can't think of anything you haven't covered well in words or images - good photos of all the useful features to compare.
That extravagant inflorescence in your photo is marvellous!
It is on my wish list - there's no substitute for actually growing the roses - watching them over the seasons and handling them, watching for seasonal similarities/differences, hip production, disease resistance etc.
Thanks for the chance to get to know this rose in advance.
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#4 of 12 posted
15 JAN 21 by
petera
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I am going to have to back track on my opinion that this is Lauren Carle. The latest flush of flowers on my GP in mid-January are mid pink, but those on Lauren Carle haven't changed from their usual cerise red. I am totally confused again as the plants are indistinguishable vegetatively and the spring flowers were all the same colour. The warm weather has only just started here and the LC flowers were about a week ahead of those on GP so they may have not experienced the environmental trigger that caused the change. I will have to check what subsequent flushes do.Sometimes I hate roses.
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I can relate to that.
Have pairs of roses that have been growing together here for what you’d think would be long enough to know whether they are the same or different but I continue to vacillate.
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PeterA, what are the canes like on your bush?
Do the petals burn in heat?
When would you say was its best season? Early or late... winter, spring, summer or autumn?
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#7 of 12 posted
14 FEB by
petera
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Patricia,
GP and LC are vegetatively identical and usually the flowers are the same colour, but sometimes the flowers on GP can be a bit paler, depending on the weather. I think both are just different clones of LC that have diverged slightly, which one is closer to the original is anyone's guess. Flowers of both clones burn a bit in hot weather but not as badly as some of the darker reds. It was 37C yesterday with a screaming north-westerly and the flowers were still there but singed around the edges. My GP continues to be a bit more vigorous but both are good performers in the garden and repeat rapidly throughout the growing season, better than a lot of moderns. There isn't a particular season when they are best. I can photograph the stems for you tomorrow. Moderately prickly with largish prickles. What particular characteristics were you interested in?
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Just can’t get Red Radiance (hybrid tea, Gude 1916) characteristics out of my mind.
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We can't even assess relationship, since the parentage of Laurent Carle is unnamed seedling x unnamed seedling. But if you did a blindfold sniff test of a bloom each of "Grandma Pfeiler's" and Red Radiance, you would have no doubt that they were different.
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#10 of 12 posted
15 FEB by
petera
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I have uploaded pictures of stems of "Grandma Pfeiler's" and Laurent Carle. GP at left and centre and LC on the right. All were taken today in my garden. Short flowering stems are generally prickle-free on both clones.
I don't currently grow Red Radiance but I think it has the same ball of petals in the centre of the bloom even when fully open, just like Radiance while GP opens completely to show stamens.
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Thank you both Margaret and Peter.
I have added a few characteristics to the main page. Shall I add “smooth pedicels”? Photos of the bare winter bush would be valuable I think. It looks a wonderful rose and to know it is so old, gives it added value.
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Smooth receptacles. The bud photo I posted does show some activity on the pedicel - not sure if they're glands or tiny prickles.
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I take back my earlier comment about lack of scent. On this warm, humid, summer's day it has a distinct tea rose scent. In the past I couldn't detect any scent but either my nose has changed or the weather has stimulated the flower. Given the foliage and the slight tinge of yellow at the petal bases I think this rose has some tea in its ancestry.
It also appears to be setting hips. I will let them mature before I check for seed.
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This rose is in Mottisfont but they don't know what it really is either. It is in the North Garden, bed 3, on the wall, the last plant at the northern side between Duchesse de Cambaceres and the rose labelled "Park's Yellow" in the corner. On the plan it is listed as Elisa Boelle which should be white. I have uploaded three pictures of the Mottisfont plant. It looks just as pestilential there as it is in my garden.
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It looks as though one of its signatures is the sepal surface is covered with glands. Would the growers of this rose agree? If so, I’ll add that characteristic to the main page.
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#2 of 3 posted
4 NOV by
petera
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I think its strongest signature is black spot but yes, the sepals and pedicels are densely glandular but without much fragrance when they are rubbed.
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Added. Thanks Petera. These tiny things all help.
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The rose I have as "Port Arthur" can't be Lady Waterlow if the plant as Mottisfont is correct. I photographed that plant at Mottisfont 18 May 2023; it is stunning and I dearly wish I did have it. If the original found plant was really LW then it must have been switched at some stage in the chain by which it came to me. My plant came from John Nieuwesteeg with budwood, I believe, sourced from the HRIA collection at Ruston's.
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