HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 25 JUL 18 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 25 JUL 18 by Vesfl
Heirloom Roses and Hortico are the only North American nurseries that are on the HMF list of those that sell 'Sir Edward Elgar.' However, neither of these two nurseries lists this rose any more in its catalogue. I've been trying to find this Austin rose and it would be terrible if it's not at all available in the entire North America. Hope someone would chime in with the new nursery information.
PhotoDiscussion id : 109-356
most recent 22 MAR 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 17 MAR 18 by Patricia Routley
An interesting photo. I don't think we are seeing such creamy yellow tones in Australia.
Reply #1 of 9 posted 17 MAR 18 by Vesfl
This photo was taken last fall and there was some discussion on Gardenweb about its identity. I didn't want to post it until the curator confirmed that it's "Mme de Watteville". When I was there again this March, some blooms had pinkish undertones and a few buds were also slightly pink, but unfortunately it was about to rain and I didn't take a photo. Last fall, however, all blooms were solid creamy yellow and we were told that this is one of the teas that slightly changes colors seasonally, at least on some blooms. Quite a beautiful rose.
Reply #2 of 9 posted 21 MAR 18 by billy teabag
This is 'Etoile de Lyon' which has been sold under the name 'Mme de Watteville'
Reply #3 of 9 posted 21 MAR 18 by Vesfl
There is one other person on gardenweb who also suggested that it could be 'Etoile de Lyon' (though another GW member was of a different opinion) but these are not my roses and this rose was marked as 'Mme de Wateville' in this beautiful public rose garden in New Orleans and also confirmed to us by the curator. There are about 100 antique roses planted there, if not even more, and I posted the photos of about 35 of them from a couple of my visits to New Orleans. My intent was to share my love of roses with those who enjoy visiting distant rose gardens, even if only virtually. Thank you for your input, though.
Reply #4 of 9 posted 21 MAR 18 by billy teabag
You're welcome.
Reply #5 of 9 posted 21 MAR 18 by Patricia Routley
I have moved the photo to 'Etoile de Lyon'.
Reply #6 of 9 posted 22 MAR 18 by billy teabag
I also had the great pleasure of being shown these roses by Leo in 2010. They were beautifully grown and had been planted with generous spaces between the roses so that they had room to achieve their potential. They clearly loved the climate in New Orleans as well as the care and must be even more magnificent eight years on.
I'll contact Leo re the labelling of that rose.
This is what 'Mme de Watteville' should look like.
Reply #7 of 9 posted 22 MAR 18 by Vesfl
Thank you very much. Before seeing your last comment, I had already removed the photo for now because I wasn't sure if it would be right to keep it since this rose's identity/labelling is questioned. It's not my rose but from this lovely public garden and if, on the second thought, Leo concurs that it's 'Etoile de Lyon' then I would ask Patricia to let me reupload it under 'Etoile de Lyon'. I'm trying to honor both your kind discussion about its identity and the hard work in this public garden to label their roses correctly. That's a beautiful picture from 'The Garden' magazine and thank you for sharing it.
Reply #8 of 9 posted 22 MAR 18 by Margaret Furness
One of the problems with public gardens is that there are visitors who think it witty and original to move labels.
Reply #9 of 9 posted 22 MAR 18 by Patricia Routley
Go for it. You don't need my permission, but check what is in the 'Etoile de Lyon' file first as I have moved some photos to there.
most recent 19 MAR 18 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 18 MAR 18 by HubertG
This looks so different from the photos of my Dr Grill that I've just posted. Is this always so evenly pink?
Reply #1 of 8 posted 18 MAR 18 by Vesfl
It does indeed look different from the photo of your 'Dr. Grill'. The shrub was in full sun when I was taking this photo and I took this closeup of the blooms on the shady side of the shrub. The blooms are not always solid pink but have shades of light to darker pink and I hope that this can be seen, albeit from a distance, on another photo of the entire shrub I posted.

After reading your comment, I've looked up "Tea Roses: Old Roses for Warm Gardens", a book written by the Australian authors, and they say that the original 'Dr. Grill' is not in commerce in Australia. On their profile of the 'William R. Smith' rose, which looks closer to yours judging from their photos, they write that it has been sold in Australia as 'Dr. Grill' and sometimes as 'Amelia Anderson'. I am not a rosarian, but hope this info helps. Either way, your rose looks absolutely stunning.
Reply #2 of 8 posted 18 MAR 18 by HubertG
Thank you Vesfl. Yes, there does seem to be some confusion over Dr Grill here (and elsewhere). I'm pretty certain my bush isn't W R Smith or Amelia Anderson, as mine sets hips and doesn't ball.
Reply #3 of 8 posted 18 MAR 18 by Margaret Furness
And see the description page of Dr Grill: the rose grown under that name in the US is not the original Dr Grill.
Reply #4 of 8 posted 19 MAR 18 by Patricia Routley
HubertG - would you like us to make a "study file" for your rose in question? Since you are not positive about the provenance, I suggest a study name something like "HubertG's possible Dr. Grill", but you might come up with something more appropriate. You could then move your photos out of the 'Dr. Grill' file and this may help to lessen the confusion over 'Dr. Grill'.
We could link your account with this "rose file" and you could add as much information as you like on this rose over the years. Unfortunately we are unable to move the Comments relating to your foundling, so they would have to stop where they are.
Reply #5 of 8 posted 19 MAR 18 by HubertG
Patricia, no, I actually think that my rose is most likely to be the real Dr. Grill. It wasn't a foundling. I did purchase it as Dr Grill from Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery, it's just that we don't seem to know where they sourced their stock. It isn't the Dr Grill that appears to be William R Smith or Amelia Anderson, judging by appearances and fertility, balling etc.
Regarding why I think it is likely to be the original (no evidence of course, just considered speculation) boils to down to a number of factors. Firstly, it matches the descriptions of being variably coppery yellow to fawn pink, which mine is. I do believe it has similarities most with the Moon illustration particularly in the colouring and the commentary say that the colours are faithfully represented, but also in the formation of the flowers. The growth habit matches the early descriptions being angular/awkward. It always opens well, at least I never remember seeing it ball. Secondly, when I look at the parents of Dr Grill, particularly Souvenir de Victor Hugo, I can see strong similarities with my rose, particularly with the incurving central petals, the high centred form and the coppery colour. When I look at the picture of Parsefal which has Dr Grill as a parent, I can easily see my rose in it. I do believe that the early breeders must have seen something special in Dr Grill to use it in crossing with the early Hybrid Teas. When I look at some of the other European Dr Grill's here, although the colours seem correct on some, some of them are somewhat insubstantial in form and I wonder if a breeder back then would have used such a rose to create roses like Antoine Rivoire, Mme Abel Chatenay etc. Thirdly is the scent which isn't strong but is distinctly hay scented. Not too many roses claim to have such a scent. I know you can't smell it, you'll just have to take my word.
Lastly, Dr Grill was available at least in Sydney to at least WWII and possibly later, it certainly isn't inconceivable that bushes survived and cuttings were passed around. I speculated in another post that Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery might have sourced it from a local nursery that had some rare old HT's. I mentioned Columbia. I now remember Korovo was another of the old HT's being sold there that I don't think was in the catalogues of the time. This is purely speculation on my part but maybe they sourced my Dr Grill from there and it came from a old known local plant.

Anyway, as I said previously I don't know that my rose is the correct Dr Grill, but that could probably be said about any of the photos of Dr Grill here, so it would be a pity to give it a separate listing, especially as the case for it being correct is reasonably strong in my opinion.

I can certainly stop spamming the Dr Grill section with my photos if you like, but because it is so variable and beautiful, there always seems to be another shot to post.
Reply #6 of 8 posted 19 MAR 18 by HubertG
Patricia, on second thought it might be better to move it to a new listing. Whatever it is, as long as anyone looking up Dr Grill's page can find a link to it that's OK with me. That way I can photo-spam all I like lol.
Reply #7 of 8 posted 19 MAR 18 by Patricia Routley
I would like to point out that HelpMeFind's capacity is not limitless.
Reply #8 of 8 posted 19 MAR 18 by HubertG
LOL I was only joking.
most recent 18 MAR 18 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 17 MAR 18 by Jay-Jay
Graciously wonderful!
Reply #1 of 1 posted 18 MAR 18 by Vesfl
Thank you! It's a lovely rose.
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