HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 26 OCT HIDE POSTS
Initial post 25 OCT by Rosewild
There’s no explanation about the unusual color of this (I assume) ‘Silver Moon’ nor a date of posting. Does anyone know anything about it?
Reply #1 of 4 posted 26 OCT by Duchesse
maybe just a badly lit photo?
Reply #2 of 4 posted 26 OCT by Girija and Viru
The photograph shown is our hybridised variety 'Silver Dawn', this is not 'Silver Moon".
Reply #3 of 4 posted 26 OCT by jedmar
Photo reassigned
Reply #4 of 4 posted 26 OCT by Girija and Viru
Thank you
most recent 6 JUL HIDE POSTS
Initial post 5 JUL by Rosewild
Dear HMF, your entry for Rosa spinosissima L. includes a list of synonyms, etc. (highlighted in blue) linking those names to this entry. But at the bottom of that page Rosa tschatyrdagi Chrshan. is mentioned but not included in the “Blue list” so it cannot be found by the Search feature of the HMF website. Could you please include Rosa tschatyrdagi in the “Blue list” too. Thank you!
Reply #1 of 5 posted 5 JUL by jedmar
We have another 21 synonyms listed as "Hidden Names", as they are uncommon synonyms which would be quite confusing if listed in the Synonym section. Rosa tschatyrdagi Chrshan is already included under Hidden Names. If you search for it, you should land on the page of Rosa spinosissima L.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 5 JUL by Lee H.
Well, that explains it! A few days ago, I was listening to the song “My Wild Irish Rose”, and while I know it was written about someone’s sweetheart, on a lark, I searched it, and 'Rosa spinosissima L.' popped up. Since I didn’t know there were hidden synonyms, I figured it was an error.

Is there any way for premium members to access those less-common synonyms?
Reply #3 of 5 posted 5 JUL by Rosewild
Dear jedmar: I cannot find the link to “Hidden names” . Even using the “Advanced search” feature, entering Tschatyrdagi at “name” does not link with anything. I make this inquiry because an article was recently published by the American HRG [The Rose Letter] where this species (tschatrydagi) is discussed. I posted photos of tschatyrdagi and rupincola at the entry for spinosissima because that seemed the appropriate (and unfortunately only) place since they are considered synonyms but searching for “tschatyrdagi” will not take you to them while a “rupincola” search works. Also I can send a link to the article if you can give me an address. But the article published by the HRG has an error, a whole paragraph was omitted disrupting the continuity.
Reply #4 of 5 posted 5 JUL by jedmar
tschatyrdagi does not work for me with "Best matches", but with "contains"
Reply #5 of 5 posted 6 JUL by HMF Admin
Searching for 'tschatyrdagi' should work for both search methods. It's likely the partial italicization of the name is causing an issue - we will investigate.

Thank you for taking the time to bring this to our attention.
most recent 9 FEB 22 SHOW ALL
Initial post 23 JUL 20 by Rosewild
Foliolosa follies

It follows that if the Rosa foliolosa in commerce since at least 1890 is an imposter, then all hybrids from it would not be true foliolosa either. There are only two I know of, ‘Basye’s Purple’ and ‘Ann Endt’.
Dr. Robert Basye, Professor of Mathematics at Texas A.& M. University also hybridized roses and created ‘Basye's Purple’ in 1968. He reported this hybrid as pollen of Rosa rugosa rubra crossed with seed parent Rosa foliolosa (2n=14). The resulting Rose was full of drama, with pallid foliage, dark brooding canes and flowers having a funeral aspect like their petals were cut from some purple velvet shroud, truly an American Gothic rose!
The rugosa rubra in its parentage was obvious in leaf texture, dark very prickly canes and flower color and size. But where was foliolosa? Nowhere that I could find but there was one clue to the other parent. ‘Basye’s Purple’ has curled, tubular stipules. So Rosa palustris (2n=14 or 28) or some palustris hybrid was the seed parent. Likely, Basye’s seed parent was the foliolosa imposter that’s been around for at least 130 years. Some form of palustris which I’ve named “Hilliers Foliolosa” because that’s where my plant originated via Pat Cole, past Editor of The Rose Letter.
The Canadian hybridizer, Percy Wright reported he received a plant of Rosa foliolosa from “a Texas mathematician” but whether he hybridized with it I don’t know.
The other Rosa rugosa x foliolosa hybrid ‘Ann Endt’ was discovered in New Zealand, given to Nancy Steen author of The Charm of Old Roses as an unknown foliolosa. Nancy already had the true Rosa foliolosa Nuttall ex Torrey & Gray growing in her garden and this was not the same. So she thought it was possibly M. Maurice Vilmorin’s rugosa x foliolosa hybrid illustrated in Les Plus Belles Roses but unfortunately she gave no date or other reference for the publication. Everyone loved the rose and eventually it was given a name in 1978 by Ken Knobbs in honor of their beloved Auckland gardener Ann Endt. In a photo taken by K.K. Ziarnek in the Auckland Botanic Garden stipules of ‘Ann Endt’ are barely visible but they appear to be flat! (Now I discover Patricia Routley posted an excellent photo of the leaf with stipule clearly visible on February 13, 2015.) Nancy likely is correct, this maybe was Vilmorin’s hybrid using the true Rosa foliolosa Nuttall ex Torrey & Gray with rugosa as the seed parent but there is some confusion about the flower color, Nancy only saw a black and white illustration.
Therefore ‘Basye’s Purple’ and ‘Ann Endt’ are not the same cross but worthy roses in their own right as is “Hilliers Foliolosa” with its vivid red flowers and most neglected of all but certainly not least, the lowly White Prairie Rose, Rosa foliolosa Nuttall ex Torrey & Gray, 1840!
Reply #1 of 5 posted 9 FEB 22 by Philip_ATX
THANK YOU! Your post answers a question I have long pondered. (See too Paul Barden's seedling of "Purple Folio-Chief" for *another* example of the wine-colors from the presumed "Hillier's Foliolosa" which does *not* include Rugosa in its lineage!)
No one heretofore has been able to tell me what "morph" of the prairie rose contributed to the marvelous coloring on any of these 3 hybrids.
I am not an academician, and have a little difficulty wading through such, but I recall a paper recently on the evolution of polyploid species east of the Rockies -- notably the Carolina complex (Cinnamomaea), that might touch on the origins of these two "Foliolosas"
(HMF won't allow me to post links, apparently.)
Reply #2 of 5 posted 9 FEB 22 by jedmar
Maybe we should add "Hilliers foliolosa" as a separate listing in order to start unravelling this confusion.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 9 FEB 22 by Philip_ATX
The nothospecies (if that's the right term) within the Carolina complex, if consistently well-defined across populations, might warrant qualifying Hillier's as a distinct sub-species, to my uneducated mind. I seem to recall reading that the red-flowered morph was found predominantly in Oklahoma whereas the white flowered species is further South and West, which makes sense in view of the distribution of the other species in the Carolina complex. Much of the discussion on DNA markers and such is Greek to me, however.
Any geneticists care to weigh in?
(Sorry I can't link external research links for somebody more fluent in "Greek" to translate! LOL)
I wonder if the the Woodsii group doesn't have at least as much variation.
As an aside, and I have weighed in on this point many times in the past, I really wish the HMF template facilitated a simple presentation of the taxonomy of species. I would *love* to see the pages at the very least modified to reflect the families/subfamilies of species roses in the lineage field (e.g. instead of "If you know the parentage of this rose, or other details, please contact us." It would be helpful, IMHO, to say something like, "Species rose, subg. Rosa (syn. Cinnamomeae), in the Carolina complex, native range Texas to Oklahoma" (or whatever would be more accurate/appropriate).
Reply #4 of 5 posted 9 FEB 22 by jedmar
Unfortunately, we are not botanists and are not able to make decisions on classification. Clearly all listings here are Species Rosa, mostly subg. Rosa. We can however add notes to selected items if the information is provided by knowledgable members
Reply #5 of 5 posted 9 FEB 22 by Philip_ATX
No need to make decisions -- not to the extent of that which you were just proposing adding. It's easily found online, and would be much more meaningful than "If you know the parentage of this rose, or other details, please contact us" to just permit contributors to add to the species roses e.g.:
-Hulthemia (formerly Simplicifoliae, meaning "with single leaves") containing one or two species from southwest Asia, R. persica and R. berberifolia (syn. R. persica var. berberifolia) which are the only roses without compound leaves or stipules.
-Hesperrhodos (from the Greek for "western rose") has two species, both from southwestern North America. These are R. minutifolia and R. stellata.
-Platyrhodon (from the Greek for "flaky rose", referring to flaky bark) with one species from east Asia, R. roxburghii.
-Rosa (the type subgenus) containing all the other roses. This subgenus is subdivided into 11 sections.
Banksianae – white and yellow roses from China
Bracteatae – three species, two from China and one from India
Caninae – pink and white species from Asia, Europe and North Africa
Carolinae – white, pink, and bright pink species all from North America
Chinensis – white, pink, yellow, red and mixed-color roses from China and Burma
Gallicanae – pink to crimson and striped roses from western Asia and Europe
Gymnocarpae – a small group distinguished by a deciduous receptacle on the hip; one species in western North America (R. gymnocarpa), the others in east Asia
Laevigatae – a single white species from China
Pimpinellifoliae – white, pink, bright yellow, mauve and striped roses from Asia and Europe
Rosa (syn. sect. Cinnamomeae) - white, pink, lilac, mulberry and red roses from everywhere but North Africa
Synstylae – white, pink, and crimson roses from all areas
(Above from Wikipedia entry on Rosa. Wikispecies has more detailed info.)

I would think this type of information *could* be helpful to hybridizers and collectors alike. Much of my research is on species, and the fact that I cannot even search this database on the level of taxonomy puts me on other sites as much as this one.
It would frankly be a lot easier than making the call "Floribunda" vs "Hybrid Tea".
most recent 8 FEB 22 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 8 FEB 22 by Philip_ATX
Apparently I cannot share links to scholarly articles via HMF. I apologize.
© 2023