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most recent 4 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 23 OCT 20 by thebig-bear
This rose has no listed progeny, and indeed in only one reference is there any mention of hips at all - I have certainly never seen any hip set on my plant. However, as the flowers looked so inviting this year (2020), and as I was in a mad pollinating phase back in May and June, I decided to try different roses' pollen on Celestial to see what might happen.

Most of my few crosses failed fairly early on after pollination, but one (using pollen from R. Gallica Officinalis), much to my surprise, successfully set and ripened, and I took the hip from the plant in September (see pics in the photos of the hip just before I removed it) and extracted the seed. There were 5 seed in total, 3 of which were definitely fertile using the water test, whilst the other two were not definitely infertile, so as this was such an unusual cross I planted all the seed together in one pot.

We will have to wait and see what happens, but as this cross has worked and produced viable seed, I'm going to try many more crosses on it next year using pollen from various different types, to see whether there is any pattern as to what will and will not work with Celestial when using it as a seed parent.

Edit, update as of 25/8/21 - 3 of the seed from this cross germinated, and two have survived so far. They seem pretty healthy, if somewhat lacking in vigour. We will see what they can achieve.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 4 days ago by ruebenmaxe
Hi there thebig-bear, any results yet? My Celeste has now spent 4 seasons in the company of a small collection of other Old Roses, including Gallica, Centifolia, and Damask. No hips whatsoever. So it looks like it really needs Mr Right as a pollinator. What else have you tried? Also very interested in negative results, so I won't retry those. Greetings, ruebenmaxe
Reply #2 of 3 posted 4 days ago by thebig-bear
Hello reubenmaxe, thank you for your question.

The short answer is yes and no. The original two seedlings from the Celeste x R. Gallica Officinalis cross did not survive. They were very weak, and didn't grow much above about a couple of inches/ 5 cms.

I have since grown a seedling from Celeste x La Belle Sultane, and that is growing a little better, although it is still only about 6 inches high, and not very vigorous, but it is still alive after 2 or 3 years (progress!), and keeps regrowing with new leaves, and also a second stem this year, so fingers crossed it might (eventually!) come to something. From what little in the way of characteristics there are to be picked up from observing it, I would say that it resembles both parents pretty much 50/50, with the leaf shape and texture more akin to La Belle Sultane, but with the colour edging towards that of Celeste's foliage. Prickles (shape and amount) are much more like Celeste.

The main problem seems to have been that, even when the hip has set (and it now does seem to set hips at least semi-regularly, with even the odd OP hip forming), the seed doesn't have a good germination rate. But it seems that at least some will work, so it is probably worth persevering with, if you have the time and space to do lots of crosses. As to what works and doesn't work, I will have to get back to you on that, as I will need to access my notes. I will try and do that a little later on.

I am definitely going to keep trying with her, as I think she is well worth the effort if offspring are indeed possible to some degree. It just seems to be a case of finding what works, as you suggest. I am also trying her as a pollen parent, but with no seedlings thus far. Watch this space.

Hope this helps.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 4 days ago by thebig-bear
p.s. Have you had a look at my journal via my profile page? There are some notes I made on the crosses I did on Celeste the following year, ie 2021.
most recent 5 JUN HIDE POSTS
Initial post 5 JUN by thebig-bear
In much the same way as others have questioned whether or not Belle Amour is in fact one of the parents of Constance Spry, I find myself wondering whether Queen of Denmark is in the parentage of Getrude Jekyll. When examining a flower from the former, the shape, colour, and most particularly the scent, have a great many similarities, at least in my experience. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Reply #1 of 4 posted 5 JUN by Marlorena
Not for me, no. I see similarities between 'Gertrude Jekyll' and 'Baronne Prevost'. I grew them both here and I could quite believe that they are connected. I've also had 'Queen of Denmark', but I wouldn't personally have made that association, so it's interesting that you find it so, and I know you are very observant.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 5 JUN by Nastarana
Don't recall the reference, but I was under the impression that a Portland rose, C. de Chambord, is a parent of Gertrude Jekyll. I think that such was claimed by DA Co. back when they first released GJ.

C de C x Constanc Spry I seem to remember seeing somewhere.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 5 JUN by thebig-bear
Nastarana, you are right about Comte de Chambord being one of the parents given for Gertrude Jekyll, though I believe it is supposed to have been used as the pollen parent, with Wife of Bath as the seed parent.

That is one of the things that doesn't add up for me. I have C.d.C., and while not totally dissimilar to Gertrude Jekyll in some ways, it doesn't really remind me of her as much as I feel it should. It certainly hasn't had a positive effect on decreasing the size of the plant, in the way that any good Portland would usually do. Also, the scent is distinctly different, at least to my nose - much more of a pure damask, and not really like G.J., which has a certain something extra to the fragrance that is more akin to something like, say, Queen of Denmark. The fact that no trace of the mryhh type scent from Wife of Bath being present also doesn't make sense to me, as this has been carried across several such roses of that period in breeding the English Roses, and seems to be quite a strong characteristic.
Reply #3 of 4 posted 5 JUN by thebig-bear
Thank you, Marlorena, for such a compliment, though I'm not sure that I really deserve it!

I've never grown, or even seen, Baronne Prevost, but I've always thought it looks to be a very lovely rose, and it is supposed to be a grandparent of G.J., so if the given parentage is accurate, then that wouldn't be surprising that it is quite similar. (although Comte de Chambord, which is supposedly a descendant of Baronne Prevost, and the given pollen parent to G.J., is very much smaller)

Not to cast aspersions, but I have heard it said that there are doubts about a few of Mr Austin's roses as to their parentage, and this is one that I have started to question, just a little bit.
most recent 9 FEB SHOW ALL
Initial post 7 DEC 16 by thebig-bear
Please can anyone tell me if this rose sets hips, and if so, what the resulting seedlings are like?
Reply #1 of 5 posted 8 DEC 16 by Margaret Furness
Hmf lists these as descendants:
Madame Gustave Fargeton
Starlight (hybrid multiflora, Paul, 1909)
The Sweet Little Queen of Holland
Reply #2 of 5 posted 8 DEC 16 by thebig-bear
Thanks Margaret. Shame none of them seem to be in commerce, as I would like to have seen the results of Celine Forestier's motherhood, so to speak.
Reply #4 of 5 posted 9 FEB by Emily W.
I have a rooted cutting on order from Rose Valley Roses.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 9 FEB by Robert Neil Rippetoe
I just purchased one recently from Burlington.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 8 DEC 16 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
"what the resulting seedlings are like?"

This depends on what you use it with.
most recent 27 MAY 23 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 25 MAY 23 by thebig-bear
Does anyone know whether R. Spinosissima is self-sterile? And are the garden hybrid varieties also self-sterile?

I have seen this mentioned in an article I was just reading, and was left curious, especially as my pink garden variety rarely produces hips for me, despite flowering prolifically.

The article in question is "Durham Wild Roses" by J. W. Heslop Harrison, for those that are interested.

Many thanks in advance.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 26 MAY 23 by Plazbo
Likely varies to some degree with species from one individual to another, some being better hip parents than others.

I have an unknown white (someone bought an old place and no labels and I got a sucker...I don't recommend sticking a spino sucker in the ground, spreads) spinosissima, assume just straight species given all it's habits and traits.

It doesn't set a huge number of hips (maybe half of flowers) but it sets them. Of those that germinated, many of them seemed like straight spinosissima (no others in the garden at that time except the diploid pimps like hugonis on the other side of the garden), while others were obvious hybrids with things near it.

in the references there's one "Cross- and self-compatibility in various species of the genus Rosa"

which says
"R. spinosissima L. Ploidy, Ploidy 4x
Pollen fertility 97.7%
Selfed Fruit set 75.8%
Selfed Seed set 58.7%"

which isn't too far off what I'm seeing with mine (just less hip set)

Meanwhile at a public garden nearby there is plants of Single Cherry (and something labeled Single Purple) that produce a lot of hips. Seedlings from those show no obvious hybridity but who knows if they are self or just crosses between the two.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 27 MAY 23 by thebig-bear
Great answer. Very interesting stuff. Thank you.
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