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Lee H. 
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If, as 'tis said, this rose is named after Lady Mary Wentworth-Fitzwilliam (January 9, 1845–July 1, 1921), that lady had married Hugh Le Despenser Boscawen on May 23, 1872, and was still married to that gentleman at the time of the introduction of the rose (and indeed continued so to his death in 1908), and so was, at the time the rose was introduced, Lady Mary Boscawen. It seems strange to be dubbing the rose after her pre-married name of a decade and more earlier; but perhaps those more familiar with the traditions and ways of the British aristocracy than I could favor us with an opinion.
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#1 of 13 posted
6 MAR by
jedmar
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Is it possible that the seedling was named 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam' on or prior to her marriage in 1872, but officially launched only 10 years later?
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#2 of 13 posted
6 MAR by
Lee H.
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I do not find a title associated with Mr. Boscawen, so he may have been a commoner. It may have been a social courtesy to continue calling her by her noble title, although she may no longer have been legally entitled to it.
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Boscawen was the son (third child, second son) of a Viscount, which made him an "Honourable" rather than a "Lord," so yes you could be right that the lady in question could revert name-wise to her original higher noble title; I don't know what the practice is in aristocratic circles.
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#4 of 13 posted
14 days ago by
HubertG
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I think it's more likely that the Lady Mary Fitzwilliam in question is Lady Mary Butler, born Mary Grace Louisa Butler, daughter to John Butler, 2nd Marquess of Ormonde and his wife Frances. She was born in Kilkenny, Ireland in 1846 and died in Malton, Yorkshire in 1929. She married on 11 July 1877 the Hon. Henry Fitzwilliam, the brother of the lady discussed in the prior posts, who was the second son to the 6th Earl Fitzwilliam, and also an M.P.
Unless I'm mistaken, as the daughter of a marquess who married a lesser son of an earl she was entitled to retain her first name in her courtesy title after her marriage, so she was styled Lady Mary Fitzwilliam rather than Lady Henry Fitzwilliam, although I admit I'm a little confused regarding this courtesy usage since he was also an M.P.
There's a photo of a Lady Mary Fitzwilliam facing page 152 in the memoirs 'Looking Back' by Sir Seymour Fortescue. Taken onboard the HMS Surprise, included in the photo is the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh, and it must date from 1886-87, the years that Fortescue was First-Lieutenant of the 'Surprise'. Although I can't be certain that this is the Lady Mary the rose was named for, the fact that the family had close royal social connections makes it likely in my opinion - Lady Mary's mother the 2nd Marchioness of Ormonde was lady-in-waiting to Queen Adelaide from 1844 to 1849, and Queen Adelaide was the godmother to Lady Mary's brother James (who became the 3rd Marquess of Ormonde), and Lady Mary Butler herself was one of the bridesmaids at Princess Louise's wedding in 1871.
I note that the rose 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam', although released in 1882, was already exhibited in 1880 under that name which is only 3 years after Lady Mary Butler's marriage. I'm not sure if there is any personal connection to Bennett but the timing at least is fitting.
There may still be some other Lady Mary Fitzwilliam possibility out there but this is the most likely candidate, in my opinion.
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#5 of 13 posted
13 days ago by
odinthor
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Excellent research! Thanks so much.
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#6 of 13 posted
13 days ago by
Lee H.
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I note that the American Rose Annual of 1952 seems to largely agree with HubertG, but I suspect a mistake with the hybridizer mentioned.
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#7 of 13 posted
12 days ago by
HubertG
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Thank you, odinthor, you're welcome.
I hadn't seen that excerpt from the American Rose Annual, Lee H., so thanks for posting it as it pretty much confirms what I'd suggested.
After I had posted above, I looked at other roses from Bennett and realised that there are a number named for members of that same extended family.
'Viscountess Falmouth' introduced in 1879 was named for Mary, the 6th Viscountess Falmouth (1822-1891) who had married Evelyn Boscawen (1819-1889), who succeeded to the title in 1852. Their son was the Hon. Hugh le Despencer, the one discussed in the first post who had married in 1872 the Lady Mary Fitzwilliam (not the rose LMF), daughter of the 6th Earl Fitzwilliam.
Another Bennett rose, this one released posthumously, was 'Lady Henry Grosvenor'. The timing of its naming, and release about 1892 after Bennett's death in 1890 meant that it had to be named for the first wife of Lord Henry George Grosvenor, born Dora Mina Erskine-Wemyss in 1856 and who died in Dec 1894 two days after giving birth to their third child.
That Henry Grosvenor was the 3rd son of Hugh Grosvenor, 1st Duke of Westminster (1825-1899) and his first wife Constance, née Leveson Gower, (1834-1880), and so it was his mother for whom Bennett's 1879 'Duchess of Westminster' was named. The 1st Duke of Westminster remarried in 1882.
And of course the Westminsters' daughter Lady Elizabeth Harriet Grosvenor (1856-1928) married James Butler, the 3rd Marquess of Ormonde who was the brother of our Lady Mary Fitzwilliam for whom the rose was named.
I hope that's clear :-). There may still be other family relationships with other Bennett roses that I haven't seen yet: I'm not sure.
Anyway, it appears that the family was clearly on pretty good terms with Bennett to accept his offerings, and all of it does confirm to me that Lady Mary Fitzwilliam née Butler (1846-1929) is the correct candidate for the 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam' rose.
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#8 of 13 posted
12 days ago by
jedmar
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Reference added, thank you! The mention of Henry Shepard as breeder is strange. Doesn't ring a bell, at all. This text was repeated in "The Rose Annual" of 1956, page 48. If someone has this volume, could you please check if it is Shepard who is mentioned, or corrected to Bennett?
Edit: Bennett's nursery was in Shepperton.
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Rose annual 1956: p. 48 says that Lady Mary was born in England in 1846, grand-daughter of the Duke of Ormonde, and died in 1929."Royal permission and special warrant was received in 1882 by Henry Shepard, hybridizer of this rose, to name it after this great English lady."
Further down the page it says that Mme Caroline Testout was a French seamstress with an establishment in London.
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#10 of 13 posted
12 days ago by
jedmar
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Curious! One would have thought that the British would have mentioned the correct Breeder.
There is no evidence that Mme Caroline Testout was a couturière. I have reposted an exchange on the subject which was under a general heading.
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#11 of 13 posted
12 days ago by
odinthor
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I read in The Old Rose Advisor that 'Mme. Caroline Testout' was "Dedicated to a lady of Grenoble, a flower fancier.” [JR34/14]
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#12 of 13 posted
12 days ago by
jedmar
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See my Q&A note to Mme Caroline Testout on this subject
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I recalled that post, which is why I added the Testout comment. "Seamstress" is a bit unflattering, too.
There is another questionable statement: he states that Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria was originally Duchess of Olga, which Wikipedia doesn't seem aware of...
I think the article shows that the writer wasn't checking all his facts. It is a lengthy article, talking about the many descendants of 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam', and where the colouring of each group came from.
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Rose Listing Omission
Barbra's Baby
As it unfurls, this hybrid tea rose unveils velvety petals in an enchanting symphony of pink,
peach, and golden hues. Blooms elegantly cascade from top to bottom, reflecting the timeless allure of its legendary namesake—iconic singer and actress Barbra Streisand.
Characteristics
Color
Pink
Fragrance
Medium-Strong
Bloom Size
Medium
Family
Hybrid tea rose
Root Stock
Grafted
Size
Medium Shrub
Height
3ft
Width
3ft
Year of Introduction
2024
Suitable for zones
5-11
Growing Conditions
Full Sunlight
All Soil Types
Breeder
NIRP
Skill Level
Rose Starter: Perfect for those new to rose gardening. These varieties are easy to care for, resilient, and require minimal expertise.
https://www.aprilandashley.com/products/barbras-baby
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#1 of 3 posted
13 days ago by
jedmar
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If this is a NIRP rose, it might be a synonym of an existing one, e.g. 'Royal Rose' or 'Rose du Merite'
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#2 of 3 posted
13 days ago by
Lee H.
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As unlikely as it may seem, April and Ashley, as well as Tom Carruth, claim Barbra Streisand as discoverer.
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#3 of 3 posted
13 days ago by
jedmar
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Did she "discover" it in her garden or in one of Nirp's production fields? April and Ashley should not hide the varietal name (breeder code).
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J. H. Nicolas writing an article called 'What stories are behind the new flowers?' in House & Garden magazine (October 1934, pages 64 and 65) gives, in a pedigree diagram, the parentage of 'Charles P. Kilham' as 'Lady Alice Stanley' x 'Mme. Ed, Herriot'. Furthermore, he gives the parentage of 'Lady Alice Stanley' as 'Mme. Caroline Testout' x "Hybrid Perpetual (name lost)".
Although it might not be accurate, I find it interesting because I had speculated last November that 'Lady Alice Stanley' might be in the pedigree of 'Peace'/'Mme. A. Meilland' albeit through 'Margaret McGredy' (see comment under 'Lady Alice Stanley'). Admittedly I'm still a little confused about the true breeding of 'Peace', but if it has both 'Margaret McGredy' and 'Charles P Kilham' in its pedigree, and if what I speculated and the parentage that Nicolas gives is true, then 'Peace' could certainly have a reasonable dose of 'Lady Alice Stanley' in its background.
In the same House & Garden article Nicolas gives three of his new roses, namely 'Yosemite', 'Agnes Foster Wright' and 'Condé Nast' as having the same parentage of 'Charles P. Kilham' x 'Mrs Pierre duPont'. I note that the 1935 rose 'Condé Nast' isn't listed here.
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#1 of 5 posted
26 FEB by
Lee H.
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Very interesting. Thanks for posting. Unfortunately, the print definition was just not enough for these tired old eyes. I found an online copy that seems much sharper, and I hope it uploads with the same definition. I include the third and final page as well.
Edit: viewing the pages in HMF is now perhaps a bit better, but definitely shows a loss of definition from the copies I uploaded.
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#2 of 5 posted
26 FEB by
HubertG
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Thanks, Lee. I find whatever gets uploaded to HMF a little resolution always seems to disappear for some reason.
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#3 of 5 posted
26 FEB by
jedmar
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Imagine if photos of up to 6MB were saved on HMF's servers, required storage capacity would explode. All photos are therefore compressed.
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#4 of 5 posted
26 FEB by
jedmar
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'Condé Nast' added. This rose is not mentioned in Modern Roses. It was probably not commercialized by Nicolas.
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#5 of 5 posted
26 FEB by
HubertG
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Thanks, jedmar. I suspect a name change and it was in fact introduced in 1935 as 'Carillon' which had the same parentage and colouration.
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"Showstopping, Oversized Blooms: The largest pink hybrid tea blooms you can grow—up to 6 inches across."
I dunno about that. The largest pink HTs I've ever seen were Rose Rhapsody, Caramel Sunset, and Gentle Giant. I live in a climate where you can see the largest possible. 'Elina' is so far my record breaker, with 'Rose Rhapsody', 'Neptune', 'Lloyd Center Supreme', and 'Claret' rounding out the top limits. 'Love and Peace', 'Color Magic', and 'Sunstruck' come close, but not quite. 'Pristine' might make the cut but I've never grown it.
A little disappointed that Pretty Lady Rose and Lasting Love are probably the parents. If its another dark pink HT, it needs to have something improved. When a company uses Lasting Love but does not use something to breed against its high level of black spot, its not impressive. LL has a lot of amazing qualities, but its hamstrung by its high rate of black spot. Both parents do well against other diseases, however. I just expected more out of Weeks. I guess they thought, "Pretty Lady Rose" is nice, but it doesn't have much fragrance, so they crossed it with a fragrant rose in a similar color category? I dunno lol.
Apparently Weeks also submitted another new rose to Spring Hill called 'Fashion Forward'. It might be the better buy? Rounded OGR form pink/white bicolor, but only some scent. Can't decipher parentage though, but the clusters seem to be nicely rounded. However, its like the Xth pink to magenta to violet flori by them many years in a row. Confusing. Where's the pizazz?
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The largest blooms I have had were on a well-established Mr. Lincoln during a warm spring which followed a wet winter.
As for your RR, it still surprises me that Fragrant Cloud was being used as a parent as late as 1999. RR won't grow for me in zone 5, alas.
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I can see that. I have seen some very large Oklahoma blooms in downtown Portland. Oh, Dolly Parton does get huge too. Add that one to the ridiculous list lol.
Both Fragrant Cloud and Ingrid Berman are on well-behaved mid-sized plants here, but Rose Rhapsody is taller, the blooms are bigger. Mine is own root and 6' tall. Its a beastly rose. It does not need to be grafted at all. Stems, foliage, and blooms are all large-portioned.
JP not selling this rose every single year possible is a mis-step.
JP went through a phase in the 1990s by crossing their mainstays with some classics. So you had like Honor x Sterling Silver or Jadis, or a JP Apricot HT x some classic Apricot HT, or whatever. I dunno why. It worked in a few cases, and not so much in other cases. I think they were just throwing fragrant roses at their own HTs because fragrance sells and their sales started slipping when the Simplicity hedge package sales began to decline. Then Knock Out won the AARS and that version of JP died.
Sorry its not hardy enough for Z5.
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Ya want big ass blooms? Get Legends. It only throws about one per season, but you better stand back when it does. Way bigger than Color Magic, Rose Rhapsody, Oklahoma, etc. (WEKsiamia).
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I tried it when it was new :( Blind shoots and stubby stems here in the Portland Metro. It might prefer warmer?
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Or maybe you just got a badly grafted plant. It happens.
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I got both ITMood and Legends the year they came out from Portland Nursery back when it was actually fun to drive in Portland. So that'd be Dr. Huey. I think that was before Week's alleged booboo. The We Salute You that I have was after that, and its the only virused rose I own, because you simply cannot get it anymore. I've had people message me demanding wood from it, even after explaining its patented and virused lol. Anyhow, perhaps Legends is better on multiflora in this climate. Due to its bloom size and shorter nature, it'd be advantageous in breeding to healthier roses.
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Medallion ? Did we forget about the size of Medallion?
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Its not a rose we see here, probably because of the King's Ransom link. But the photos have seemed large. Parole, suggested below, is also massive. Spring Hill/Weeks/JP need to select their words when marketing more wisely.
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#7 of 12 posted
19 FEB by
Johno
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What about the Kordes rose, Parole? Magnificent when you get the perfect bloom, the reality is with the size, you are usually looking at a bit of mess.
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I also have Parole, which is no doubt quite large and fragrant to boot. But for me, Medallion still takes the cake on pure size. My Veteran's Honor(s) can get quite large in the late Fall (late October) as well.
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#11 of 12 posted
19 FEB by
Lee H.
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Here on Indiana’s southern border, Medallion is indeed quite large, but is still routinely surpassed by Papa Meilland.
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I have two bushes of Papa Meilland, and agree he can have huge blooms. But in my garden there are larger, but few more fragrant than Papa Meilland. It's a bit winter tender up here around Chicago.
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