HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
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A Rose Man
most recent 26 DEC 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 24 FEB 13
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Reply #1 of 6 posted 25 FEB 13 by Patricia Routley
A diploid = 14 chromosomes.
Many garden roses are tetraploid (28 chromosomes)
So if a diploid (14) is crossed with a tetraploid (28), [28 + 14 = 42 then half that] the result will be a triploid (21). As this is not an even number, some chromosomes are left without an opposite number to pair with, which will create difficulties in trying to breed with a triploid. Have I got that right?
Here are photos of my ‘Baby Faurax’ seedlings two years down the track (see photos previous 'Baby Faurax' comment). A quick look at my seedlings this morning show all are bearing hips. The above para might mean that these seedlings are infertile. But then again, what if the unknown pollen parent was something compatible.
Nobody answer this please. I can barely understand my own muddlings.
Reply #2 of 6 posted 25 FEB 13 by A Rose Man
I don't want to confuse you here, and I'm sorry to reply despite you asking people not to; but:

Your seedlings could be self pollinations which would likely make them diploid.

If they are triploids they can still be fertile to a degree. Some triploids are extremely fertile so fertility isn't a reliable inductor that a rose is triploid.

And it's also possible for dilpoids to produce unreduced gametes (14 chromosome) in their pollen and ovules so some of the seedlings could be tetraploid.

The only way to be sure is to have them tested. Or you could not worry over it and enjoy them for what they are. Some of the most iconic names of the rose breeding world completely ignored the ploidy of the roses they worked with. They just made the crosses and let the roses worry over fertility.
Reply #3 of 6 posted 26 FEB 13 by Patricia Routley
Thanks Mr. Rose Man. Very good advice. However, it is not worry, but interest - and a good deal of love. This little ‘Baby Tooth’ is my favourite - and just look at that ageing! Something only a mother could love.
Reply #5 of 6 posted 26 FEB 13 by A Rose Man
I'm not a big fan of roses that hold their petals to their last breath, but the bloom colour is lovely, and some very popular roses have that tenancy, so I'm sure you're not the only person who would love your ‘Baby Tooth’.

I have a few flawed progeny around myself that I'm more than a little fond of. I've even gone as far as listing one called 'Valmai' on helpmefind. The poor thing blackspots horribly, but it's still one of my favourite seedlings.

With regards to ploidy I must admit that I try to keep things at the diploid level. But that's because rugosas are my main focus. I produced quite a number of triploid rugosa hybrids when I first started hybridising, but they were all dead ends, so for my purposes diploids are more desirable. I am however planing to produce a number of triploids over the next few years to bring desirable traits down from tetraploids to the diploid level for crossing into rugosas. I've also ordered a few triploid cultivars this season for the same purpose.

In the end though, all that really matters is the roses you select as parents work with you in achieving your goals. Mr Moor's unrestrained imagination and "the rose will find the way" philosophy made him one of the greats. And Kim has certainly been very successfully in following that philosophy.
Reply #7 of 6 posted 26 DEC 18 by ms_margaret
Baby tooth is pretty to me.
Reply #4 of 6 posted 26 FEB 13 by Rupert, Kim L.
Hi Patricia, yes, it's possible your seedlings could be diploid or even triploid, but seriously, don't worry about it. As Rose Man offered, some very prolific, well known and successful hybridizers pay no attention to ploidy. Ralph Moore and from a recent interview in the Rose Hybridizers Association newsletter, William Radler (Knock Out's daddy), to name just two. As Mr. Moore loved to say, "the rose will find the way!" and believe me, they usually do.

Early infertility problems in Tea crosses were chalked up to their being triploid, but as has been consistently seen, many triploids are wonderfully fertile, so I believe the Tea fertility issues were likely due to some other issues. Mr. Moore's Golden Angel is triploid and it has been used successfully with many roses. My own Lynnie is triploid and you would be very hard pressed to find another rose with greater fertility and excellent germination.

Personally, I don't usually pay attention to ploidy in planning crosses. I may look out of interest, but more often than not, as Mr. Moore repeatedly stated, the rose does find the way. Good luck!
Reply #6 of 6 posted 26 FEB 13 by Patricia Routley
Thanks Kim and Rose Man. One of these days when I get to 94 and too old for all this [ahem, worrying] and gardening and hard-work nonsense, I am going to live in a unit and have my balcony jam-packed with pots of Ralph Moore’s miniatures. That should keep me happy.

Roses spring up here in this acid soil garden like fleas on a dog’s back. Mostly I just hoe them out, but a few get away from me and I leave them to bloom. I get a bit of amusement from the names, like the pink single multiflora/‘Menja’ lookalike which sprang up under ‘Honey Flow’ and that I’ve called ‘Bloomin Routley!’ and the seedling which looked very much like ‘Thisbe’ copped the name of ‘Fizzbee’. Its good fun!
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Pollen diameter measurements would suggest that Broadlands is diploid. Couldn't find any grains that exceeded 34 microns.
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