HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 22 JUN HIDE POSTS
Initial post 22 JUN by Ozoldroser
Wow what a stunning picture of this rose.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 22 JUN by matroskin
thank you for your kind words!
most recent 29 APR HIDE POSTS
Initial post 28 APR by Cà Berta
According to the second reference it is a seedling of General Jacqueminot

The Horticulturist and Journal od Rural Art and Rural Taste, 1861 - ‎ page 134
Vulcain , deep fiery scarlet, with heavy shade of black maroon on lower petals; good form..

The Florist and Pomologist, 1861 - ‎page 341
Vulcain, H.P. — Vigorous ; flowers not quite full, lively deep purple violet, shaded with black, blooming in clusters ; very free flowering, and producing a fine effect; a seedling of General Jacqueminot.

The Journal of Horticulture, Cottage Gardener and Country Gentleman, 1862 page 250.
H.P. Vulcain (Verdier et Fils). – Rich velvety plum or dark purplish-maroon; colour fine, distinct, and very striking; petals shell-shaped and of good substance; flowers finely formed and quite full when expanded; habit moderate. A fine, distinct, and novel flower.

The Gardener’s Weekly Magazine, and Floricultural Cabinet. 1863 - ‎ page 211
Vulcain, deep purple, shading to black, medium size, better than Reine des Violettes;
Reply #1 of 7 posted 29 APR by Patricia Routley
Thank you Bruna. References and parentage added. I have presumed the General Jacqueminot was the HP, and not the China.
Am glad to hear from you. We gardeners are about the luckiest people in the world right now as most of us are able to get out and tend beauty in our gardens.
Reply #2 of 7 posted 29 APR by Cà Berta
You are right, Patricia. .. a lot of spare time to try and identify old beauties, as well! I think that the General Jacqueminot involved is the Laffay's one (being smooth as velvet and crimson ..). Also the general aspect looks similar (free and vigorous). Although I see quite a lot of Gloire de Rosomanes in this rose , so it might well be the HP one. So " seedling of General Jacqueminot " and we will some time (hopefully) find out.
Have a good day and keep safe.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 29 APR by Cà Berta
PS Having looked at the seedlings of Laffay's General Jacqueminot it comes out that 1) they are just two; 2) one of them (La Nantaise) actually is seedling of the HP;. .... It is thus unlikely that this hybrid china was a good fertile parent for Vulcan.
Further, the lack of photo of the Laffay's does not help to solve the little mistery.
Apparently that rose is still existing in two gardens in Australia. Do you have any information/photo of those specimens ? Thank you
Reply #4 of 7 posted 29 APR by Patricia Routley
That would be Pat Toolan’s garden, and the beautiful Barossa Old Rose Repository that Pat helps with.
Pat - is the ‘General Jacqueminot’ you grow, the hybrid china or the hybrid perpetual?
Général Jacqueminot (Hybrid China, Laffay, 1846)
Général Jacqueminot (hybrid perpetual, Roussel, 1853)
Reply #5 of 7 posted 29 APR by Ozoldroser
It would be the HP Patricia if it is correct. One I had was from the late Esmond Jones who sent me cuttings. I think I have lost the plant at home due to the drought but the other maybe candidate is still in the Lindner garden and being cared for plus a struggling plant in the Barossa Repository. All were possible candidates.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 29 APR by Patricia Routley
Thanks Pat. You need to delete the hybrid China listing and add in the hybrid perpetual to the Repository listing.
This is a WONDERFUL time for all to update their garden’s rose listings on HelpMeFind.
Reply #7 of 7 posted 29 APR by Cà Berta
Thank you Pat and Patricia
most recent 18 APR HIDE POSTS
Initial post 16 APR by petera
I have just uploaded a set of photos of Glenara No.2". They are a little repetitive but this is the very last flower for the season on a not very happy, potted plant.

John Nieuwesteeg gave me this plant and assured me its ID is correct so something has been garbled in the description on HMF. It is clearly a tea, not a HT. The flower colour is complex and varies depending on the light and there is yellow on the petal bases that can become quite prominent when the flowers fully open. The backs of the petals are paler.

I have gone through Alister Clark's "A Walk About Glenara" from the Australian Rose Annual 1938 and the only rose in that list it could possibly be is 'Capitaine Millet'. If that turns out to be correct then it is the pollen parent of 'Lorraine Lee'.
Reply #1 of 20 posted 16 APR by HubertG
I looked at the photos before I read your comment and the first thing that occurred to me was the similarity in colour to 'Lorraine Lee' - so we are both thinking along the same lines.
Reply #2 of 20 posted 16 APR by petera
I agree, the colour tones are very much like Lorraine Lee.
Reply #3 of 20 posted 16 APR by HubertG
It could be anything - an ancestor of 'Lorraine Lee', or a descendant. Considering how many thousands of unreleased seedlings Clark had at Glenara maybe it's one of those. Clark praised 'Ann Leygues' which is from 'General Schablikine' (like 'Capitaine Millet') so perhaps it's that. Whatever it is, it's certainly rare and well worth preserving.
Reply #4 of 20 posted 16 APR by petera
I dismissed 'Anne Leygues' as it is supposed to have a fiery red centre and there is no mention of yellow. Your comments on the myriad of unnamed seedlings is well taken. Unfortunately John did not keep records of locations of the plants he collected, which could have helped relate them back to the path in Clark's article.
Reply #5 of 20 posted 16 APR by Patricia Routley
I opened the file for a light yellow rose based on these 2018 emails:

“John N put in two 'Souvenir de Gustav Prat' and two "Glenara No 2" (Tea) in the parcel of roses I ordered from his son Rueben's Wild Rose nursery”.

“Glenara No 2 is from Glenara when he first went there years ago. John was amazed that he still has it. Called No 2 because it was the 2nd rose at Glenara that he took budwood from!!! Soft yellow with not a lot of petals early 1900 HT. No other colour in the rose.” - Pat.

I wonder if you could jog his memory on “Glenara No. 2”.
Reply #6 of 20 posted 16 APR by Ozoldroser
I should have read this a little earlier as I was just talking to John N and he did discuss Glenara No 2 and the possible id but we did not go into colour etc. I lost my plant from John N so can't help.
Reply #7 of 20 posted 16 APR by petera
I checked with him today before I posted the comment and pictures in case there was a mix and I made myself look foolish again. He was adamant that it was the right rose and told me the same story about the numbering. The plant was flowering when he gave it to me a couple of months ago so it is not a recent mislabelling. Pat or Patricia, maybe you should have a talk to him. He did set this one as a bit of a challenge, saying it has been hanging around for years and no one has been able to put a name to it. We also talked about a soft yellow rose,also from Glenara, that he believes is 'Souv. de Gustave Prat' which Clark used repeatedly in his crossing.
Reply #8 of 20 posted 16 APR by HubertG
It would be very interesting if the pale yellow rose did happen to be 'Souvenir de Gustave Prat'.
Does anyone know if this yellow Glenara rose has red stamens? I ask because I remember reading a reference for 'Independence Day' (Mme Ed. Herriot x Souv. de G. Prat) which described it as having red stamens. 'Amy Johnson' (also from 'Souv. de G. Prat') also has red stamens, and I wondered if both these roses might have inherited their red stamen filaments from 'Souvenir de Gustave Prat' (especially since Mme Ed. Herriot appears to have yellow stamens). Just speculation, doesn't prove anything, but I'd be curious to know.
Reply #9 of 20 posted 16 APR by Patricia Routley
I have added another paragraph to my Reply 5 of 8.
It appears that “Glenara No. 2” may well have been the pink rose and not the pale yellow ‘Souvenir de Gustave Prat.
I have also added a 2011 reference which talks of “Glenara No. 2” cascading over a chook pen. It is unlikely that the yellow, short ‘Souvenir de Gustave Prat’ would grow that high, so I will change the colour in the file from yellow to pink. Many thanks Petera. Please don’t worry about looking foolish - these old roses have the ability to make anybody look foolish as we grope and fumble for the truth. We can now get down to looking closely as to what the pink may be.
It is of interest that the Wild Rose Nursery order form, seen on The Heritage Roses in Australia facebook website, carries neither rose.
Reply #10 of 20 posted 17 APR by petera
Filaments are red on John N's 'Souv. de Gustave Prat' candidate.
Reply #11 of 20 posted 17 APR by HubertG
Very interesting, petera, thanks. I found and added the 1922 reference to 'Independence Day' having bright red stamens. I won't profess to precisely understanding the inheritance patterns of stamen filament pigmentation but if two known offspring of 'Souvenir de Gustave Prat' have red filaments, there's a fair chance that SdGP did too, I'd say. If this yellow Glenara rose thought to possibly be SdGP has red filaments, I'd just say that it would strengthen that argument. It would be wonderful if we could have some photographs of the yellow Glenara rose.
Reply #12 of 20 posted 17 APR by petera
Not possible for the moment as I don't have it and I asked John checked a flower on his plant for me. He also said it had 15 or so petals which is on the low side of the description but just from one late-season flower.We should ask someone who has the goddess-like powers over the website to move this discussion to the 'Souv. de Gustave Prat' page.
Reply #13 of 20 posted 17 APR by Patricia Routley
Sorry, nobody can move a members comment - it is just not possible. Why don’t you try copying what you think is relevant. Delete any excess REPLY and DELETE POST boxes, and paste the lot as a new comment where you want it to go.
Reply #14 of 20 posted 17 APR by HubertG
Sorry for discussing 'Souvenir de Gustave Prat' here. I just wasn't sure at the time whether "Glenara No. 2" was the pink or the yellow rose.
Reply #18 of 20 posted 18 APR by Patricia Routley
Petera, did John mention ‘Mrs. Russell Grimwade’ in connection with “Glenara No. 2”? It was said to be a darker ‘Lorraine Lee’ or fuchsia pink. It was highly likely that Mr.Grimwade would have given Mr.Clark a plant of it - see Mrs. Russell Grimwade’s 1939 reference.
Reply #19 of 20 posted 18 APR by petera
Patricia, John didn't mention 'Mrs Russell Grimwade' and "Glenara No 2" has a much flatter, less high-centred flower than 'Lorraine Lee' (see the extra photos of the fully opened flower). The stems also do not have the slight glaucousness of LL. I do not think it is a sport. However, your question has prompted a memory from a recent HRIA meeting here in Melbourne where someone brought in a sample that we dismissed as LL but the flower was definitely darker. I can't for the life of me remember who brought it in but will chase it up.
Reply #20 of 20 posted 18 APR by Margaret Furness
The silver reverse may be able to help with identification.
Reply #15 of 20 posted 17 APR by Margaret Furness
See no 5 comment. I assume that wasn't me, because I don't remember ordering or receiving those roses, and I know how to spell Reuben!
Reply #16 of 20 posted 17 APR by Patricia Routley
Oh dear Margaret. I have been foolishly assuming again. Blame it on a long day on the mower yesterday and cramming in a reply before getting dinner last night. Sorry.
Reply #17 of 20 posted 17 APR by Margaret Furness
I've been thinking that if "Glenara no 2" is a Tea, I need it for the Tea Collection if we ever get to plant it again somewhere.
most recent 11 APR HIDE POSTS
Initial post 9 APR by Patricia Routley
I am not sure if “J. Datson” and “Frank Veal”, are the same rose as “Rookwood China”, “Rookwood’s Not Sanguinea”, referred to also as Big Single Red China at Rookwood. If they are, the files for “J. Datson” etc could possibly be merged with ‘Bengal Crimson’?
Refer ‘Bengal Crimson’ and “J. Datson” refs.
Reply #1 of 10 posted 9 APR by Ozoldroser
In Barbara May's notes:
J Datson 1912 see Veal China
Veal Col. Frank H - 16/4/1924 - wife 11/12/1917 - Alice daughter 20/12/1922 - (situation omitted here)
Beautiful perf. China. is Datson
Reply #2 of 10 posted 9 APR by Margaret Furness
No, "J Datson" isn't single. Nor are "Mrs Goode's red China" or "Grandma Frederick's red China".
Photo added.
Reply #3 of 10 posted 9 APR by Patricia Routley
Thanks to you both. I have added “double”. OK?
Reply #4 of 10 posted 9 APR by Margaret Furness
I tried to add "J. Datson" to the Ruston's plant list, but the system didn't recognise it.
Reply #5 of 10 posted 9 APR by Patricia Routley
I presume that is an OK.
I have added “J. Datson” - from the rose’s page, eg added the garden to the rose’s growers.
Reply #6 of 10 posted 9 APR by Ozoldroser
There are quite a few red chinas at Rookwood. James Turnball was called C. L. Brisbane and there was Datson and the Veale rose which were the same but different to the Turnball rose. Yes there were singles but to just call it "Rookwood China" doesn't tell you which it is at all - single, double, red, white????
Then there is "Steffies Red" which I think is different again, and this is without searching Barbara's listing any further.
Reply #7 of 10 posted 9 APR by Patricia Routley
Thanks for your input Pat. As I see them:
"Stephanie’s Red" (NSW) (syn: “Mary Ann Murray”) is the same as “Kombacy Elyena”. This seems to be a tea and I thought it may well be ‘Francis Dubreuil’.

A double red China.
“J. Datson”, (syn “Frank Veale”) seem to be very similar to “Grandma Frederick’s Red China” and “Mrs. Goode’s Red China”, according to Margaret.

A single red China - Bengal Crimson.
“Rookwood China”. I agree this study name does not describe the rose. However there have been photos published of the rose which shows a single red. A look at the references for “Rookwood China” might help here.

Cramoisi Supérieur (syn Lady Brisbane)
The foundling name “James Turnball” is not familiar to me.
Reply #8 of 10 posted 9 APR by Margaret Furness
There was also ":Jane Vaughan", which is a semi-single with a white eye. Jane Z thought it might be a seedling, and not worth growing.
Reply #9 of 10 posted 11 APR by Ozoldroser
From Barbara May notes:
Vaughen Jane see Catherine Haswell single red is 'Papa Hemeray'

PT note spelling Vaughen.
There is also Vaughan Henry, Vaughen Sarah (gone)
Reply #10 of 10 posted 11 APR by Patricia Routley
I remember seeing that rose on Oct 28, 2003 when Barbara took us to Rookwood. My notes of that day say:
"Papa Hemeray does not seem like my, and other, Papa Hemerays. This rose flower is stunted and contorted."
Later at home I thought it might have been 'Mlle. Francisque Favre'.
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