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'Peace' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 10-220
most recent 19 AUG SHOW ALL
Initial post 2 OCT 05 by Barden, Paul
There is some question as to the correct parentage of 'Peace'. There is an article in the October 2005 ARS Magazine in which some data is missing/incorrect. Particularly the parentage listing, which has one of the parentheses missing. The missing parenthesis belongs immediately after the 'Souv. de Claudius Pernet', thus: ((George Dickson X Souvenir de Claudius Pernet) X (Joanna Hill X Charles P. Kilham)) X Margaret McGredy

I have always felt that such use of parentheses should be done this way (using a square paren. when multiples are needed) to avoid confusion:

[(George Dickson X Souvenir de Claudius Pernet) X (Joanna Hill X Charles P. Kilham)] X Margaret McGredy

You might also note a misspelling in the parentage, which I find very amusing: The pollen parent's name is spelled "Margaret McGreedy" in the ARS article!

In Alain Meilland's book Meilland: "A Life in Roses", Alain clearly states the parentage to be the same as it is listed in HMF:

Joanna Hill X (Charles P. Kilham X Margaret McGredy).

Surely Meilland would not have allowed an error of pedigree to be published? (Although the book was co-authored with someone else, and perhaps there was an error introduced inadvertently. Perhaps it was even intentional! Who knows. It is not unheard of for breeders to put other hybridizers "off the trail" by publishing misleading breeding data, though I cannot imagine why that would be warranted some 35 years after its introduction.) Yet clearly there are numerous references to the more complicated parentage, including the listing in MR10 (a resource that is not without its share of errors, admittedly). Perhaps Dr. Tommy Cairns can provide provenance for that listing?

I have Antonia Ridge's book, "For Love Of A Rose", which is referred to in the ARS article, and without reading the whole thing through, I cannot find any reference to exact parentage in her writings. (I have been saving the book for Winter reading, you see!) Perhaps the ARS author did not find this parentage listing is Ridge's book but gleaned the data from Modern Roses. This makes it more important to determine provenance of the ARS's data.

Which one is correct? I don't know for certain. Someone with a better source of information needs to submit their knowledge.
Reply #1 of 6 posted 6 OCT 05 by
Thank you Paul. This is what HelpMeFind is all about. Collecting the expertise, and opinions, of people from around the world. That expertise can be the observation of a beginning rose gardener or the knowledge of an esteemed authority like Paul Barden. We are very grateful to have all levels of expertise contributing to HMF.

Reply #2 of 6 posted 6 OCT 05 by
We broached the subject with another of the rose community's noteworthy, Bill Grant, and he contacted Meilland. Speaking with his friend Jacques Mouchotte (in charge of all the hybridizing programs at the Cannet des Maures) he was told "The Modern Rose genealogy of Peace is perfectly correct, absolutely right. That's exactly what it is".

As such, we are updating HelpMeFind's parentage for 'Peace' but we share Paul Barden's wonderment of the erroneous listing in Alain Meilland's book.

P.S. Thanks Bill. You seem pretty knowledgeable about this rose stuff - you should consider writing books or giving lectures maybe.
Reply #4 of 6 posted 8 MAR 06 by Barden, Paul
The parentage listing currently presented here at HMF is the correct one:

Seed: [ George Dickson × Souvenir de Claudius Pernet ] × [ Joanna Hill × Charles P. Kilham ]
Pollen: Margaret McGredy
Reply #5 of 6 posted 8 MAY 06 by Unregistered Guest

Thank you so much.  So the legend of an unknown seedling X Margaret Mcgredy can be scrapped. 

I also have a note from somewhere that Joanna Hill and Peace share the parentage of rose Michelle Meilland ??   Do you think Meilland Roses - or another site - would have a chart with the complete family?

Reply #6 of 6 posted 18 AUG by jedmar
Surprise, surprise! The page from Francis Meilland's notebook which allegedly shows the cross 3-35 of 'Peace' reported in the Meilland book states the parentage to be 'Joanna Hill' x seedling 103-32-A, which according to the book was 'Charles P. Kilham' x 'Margaret McGredy'. This used to be the parentage listed by HMF prior to 2005.
The only thorn in my side is that the notebook has originally pencilled cross 3-35 on June 3, 1935 as
'Joanna Hill' x (127.7 x Dr. Eckener). This pollen parent is mentioned in a further cross above as no. 99.32 (non-repeating yellow large bloom). 2 such plants were budded. The notebook has then been modified to show 55 plants budded on June 15 with the cross 'Joanna Hill' x 103-32 A.
Was the original cross of June 3 discarded and the number replaced with a new idea on June 15? Or the notebook doctored to tell the story in the book?
Reply #7 of 6 posted 19 AUG by Jocelyn
Discussion id : 105-476
most recent 15 MAY SHOW ALL
Initial post 10 SEP 17 by Give me caffeine
'Peace' has reverted to growing neither forwards nor backwards. Or, to be specific, doing both alternately, with overall progress being conspicuous by its absence. Still a small bush, often quite manky, but throws out proper 'Peace' flowers when it's in the mood.

The current one was only a hardware store body bag, on dog knows what rootstock. Could be on lantana for all I know.

I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile to source another one, on multiflora. Might do better.
Reply #1 of 5 posted 10 SEP 17 by Margaret Furness
The old grey mare, she ain't what she used to be... Peace is one of the roses which is said to have lost vigour, due to over-propagating. Your best bet is to grow it (or get someone to strike it for you) from a cutting from an old plant.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 10 SEP 17 by Patricia Routley
....from a vigorous old plant.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 11 SEP 17 by Give me caffeine
Yep. I was wondering if T4R had a good old plant as their scion stock.
Reply #4 of 5 posted 15 MAY by mmanners
I just now posted this to Facebook, and I see it's relevant here: "As you likely know, there was a lot of discussion in the late 1980s and early '90s (and still to some degree today) about "genetic decline" of roses -- the idea that "overpropagation" had made plants weaker and less desirable than they had been when new. And Peace was given as a prime example -- it had lost its pinkness and become more just pale yellow, as well as becoming far less vigorous than people remembered. I always doubted the idea of the mechanism, in that the "overpropagation" theory made no biological sense. Yes, if you make millions of copies of a rose, you'll see mutations among them. But they won't ALL mutate in the SAME way, which is what the overall degeneration seemed to indicate. Another concept, less popularly believed, was that it was one or more viruses that might be causing the overall decline. Again, a challenging concept, in that the whole population would need to catch the same virus(es). Nevertheless, we did discover, early in our heat-therapy work, that some older roses really seemed to be rejuvenated by the process, whether or not they tested positive for any known viruses. And Peace was one of them -- the heat-treated form was far superior (and in the memories of those who knew Peace back in the 1940s and early '50s, back to its good old self). I remember Mel Hulse exclaiming that the heat-treated form was Peace as he remembered it. So it is my suspicion (for which I have no further evidence or proof) that one or more viruses may be involved in this thing we call decline, in older rose varieties. And if heat therapy or some other method used to remove viruses is used, it MAY rejuvenate the rose. Alternatively, there may be some form of "aging" that happens in some (but certainly not all -- think Autumn Damask) roses, that is controlled epigenetically, and perhaps heat therapy resets that clock in some way. Pure conjecture of course; but at least we do have good, vigorous, pink-tinged Peace!" And oops, realizing this has been discussed on other threads, here, in the past. But I was reminded of the topic this morning with our lots-of-pink Peace flowering in our garden.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 15 MAY by Give me caffeine
This sounds all very groovy, but does anyone have such stock in Australia? I have a nasty suspicion the answer is currently "no".

The plant I had (since gone kaput) looked like a real 'Peace' when it was happy. It had the pink tones and the great foliage and was much as I remembered the ancient monster that grew where I lived several decades ago. The problem was that it couldn't hold onto its foliage in this climate, and couldn't get going enough to bulk up to a good sized shrub. It eventually gave up the ghost.
Discussion id : 115-691
most recent 15 MAY SHOW ALL
Initial post 11 MAR 19 by Matt's Northwest Florida Garden
Anyone try Peace on Fortuniana ?
Reply #1 of 4 posted 11 MAR 19 by Patricia Routley
Probably the entire city of Perth, Western Australia, grew ‘Peace’ on Fortuniana.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 12 MAR 19 by billy teabag
Yes - What Patricia said - Fortuniana is the recommended rootstock here in Perth (sandy soils, hot & dry summers, nematodes). I have two plants of 'Peace' on fortuneana rootstock that are almost 30 years old. They are strong, healthy and floriferous.
Reply #3 of 4 posted 1 AUG 19 by ksinGA
Yes. Peace is fantastic on fortuniana. K&M Roses has it.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 15 MAY by mmanners
We've grown it on 'Fortuniana' for at least 35 years, in Lakeland Florida.
Discussion id : 109-221
most recent 28 MAR 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 11 MAR 18 by Kathy Strong's Del Cerro Garden
I am wondering whether there is anyone around who knows where there is a very old specimen of Peace -- i.e., planted shortly after World War II. That is when it was imported to the U.S., and I suspect the newer specimens have slowly mutated away from the grandeur of the original. I would like to propagate new plants from a very old plant to test this hypothesis. So if anyone has, or knows where, such a first-generation-type plant exists -- in their grandma's old rose garden, or whatever - please tell me where it is so I can collect some budwood. Thank you.
Reply #1 of 5 posted 13 MAR 18 by Rupert, Kim L.
Hi Kathy, unfortunately, I don't know of a specimen as you describe. I can tell you a friend in Santa Barbara bought a standard commercial budded plant of Peace and planted it outside her kitchen in century old garden soil. The house was built in 1898 so it is not engineered nor compacted. There has been a century plus of organic material falling on her hill and she regularly uses her chicken manure to spread around the roses and fruit trees. The Peace receives gray water from her kitchen sink as well as irrigation with the rest of the roses. The bush is nearly six feet tall with healthy, gorgeous foliage. She never sprays nor uses pesticides nor fungicides as the hill is planted with many edibles which she eats and shares. The flowers are HUGE and look just like the old catalog photos from decades past. She doesn't prune the plant much but breaks off the spent blooms at the point of abscission. I have long sought the kind of Peace you are looking for and have never run across one anywhere. My youngest sister in Santa Clarita bought several Peace bushes at Green Arrow twenty-plus years ago when they bought their house and she followed my suggestion of never whacking them. Hers are about the same size as the Santa Barbara plant, or were when I saw them last over three years ago. I'm sure if you would like to try some cuttings or bud wood of the Santa Barbara plant, it should be able to be arranged.

From the success of these three plants, I would suggest the main issues are the commercial stock is likely usually held too dry in storage and once planted, they aren't given enough deep, friable soil in which to generate the root system they need to produce the size of plant they want to be. All three of these plants grow in soil which has not been engineered (mechanically compacted to provide seismic stability in earthquakes) so water drains deeply into it, allowing the roots to follow deeply into into it. For homes built after 1980, California homes generally have engineered soil which prevents air, water and roots from penetrating deeply.

I have Kimo (striped Peace) and a root sport from that plant which appears to have reverted to Flaming Peace, both own root, which are also available if you would like to play with material from them.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 28 MAR 18 by jmile
I am going to try to grow Peace from both Roses Unlimited and Heirloom (own root) and graft them onto Fortuniana root stock (giving me four test roses) and just let them grow unpruned except for cutting off dead wood and doing a little shape trimming. I will let you know how that goes. I know what Peace should look like because I grew up in a home with a huge Peace rose that my Grandmother planted right after it was shipped to this country after WWII. I do not use fungicides or pesticides and fertilize with chicken and horse manure and alfalfa.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 28 MAR 18 by Kathy Strong's Del Cerro Garden
That will be interesting! Please keep us posted.

And Kim, thank you for the offer of Kimo, and yes I will take you up on that, but it will have to wait some months now. I just got told I have to move AGAIN! My landlord wants this house back this summer, so I've got to move all these roses again!
Reply #4 of 5 posted 28 MAR 18 by Rupert, Kim L.
Oh, no! I'm sorry, Kathy! Sounds as if you need to move quite a bit north! (hint, hint!)
Reply #5 of 5 posted 28 MAR 18 by Kathy Strong's Del Cerro Garden
Funny. But I'm still caring for 88 year old mom, who lives nearby, so I've got to stay here. But if you or any other HMF fans know of a rental place in/around San Diego, I would appreciate hearing about it. I'm a perfect renter, by the way -- no kids/pets/spouses/smoking or other trouble/issues for landlords and always pay the rent on time. And at the end of the lease, they will have roses -- because I inevitably plant some in the ground and ultimately leave them behind. Not to mention leaving whatever other garden they had in better shape than I found it.
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