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Questions, Answers and Comments by Category
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The photo shown looks just like my Moondrops, but is obviously not a single rose. I wonder if this pic and my plant are actually Moondrops 85
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Initial post
2 days ago by
JoeyT
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FLS has lovely deep green foliage and non-stop lavender blooms that fade to a beautiful silvery color, and quite an upright growing habit which is fine with me because I didn't want it to sprawl anyway. I love the fragrance, it reminds me of the Blue Moon rose my mom grew when I was a kid. I will see how it does over the winter before I have an opinion on hardiness. I don't spray and it has been very healthy for me. My soil type is acidic, zone 4b and altitude of 5000ft.
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I have an own-root plant 8 or 9 years old, now 1.8m high. My other plant has more competition and is smaller.
I don't think the flowers are high-centred enough to match the early photos of Francis Dubreuil, unfortunately.
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I did think that I saw a strong resemblance between this illustration http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.314493 and your photo of KE stems in a vase here: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.222484 . Especially the buds on the left of both "photos" with the strappy sepals and a bit of a swan's neck effect.
I didn't have the impression from reading references and looking at old illustrations that FD was unusually high-centered.
But Bob may be right that KE isn't tall enough to be a good candidate? In the 1931 article by Mr. Knight, he seems to say that old plants of FD could get to be 8-9' tall... more like 2.5m. Do you think your KE could eventually attain that size with time?
Thanks,
Virginia
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The parent plant was growing under a big camellia, and therefore stunted (and the Renmark plants were constantly deadheaded by David R). I haven't seen the old plants growing in other states - others may be able to comment. I think it could get bigger with time.
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"Kombacy and its synonym plants, all have a definite S-bend pedicel, or swan neck.
Virginia - take a look at the 1906 and 1896 illustrations of 'Francis Dubreuil'. They look a bit high-centered to me. I am never going to be able to help with the height of "Kombacy Elyena", as my plants just do not grow all that well in this cool and acid soil. But I struck another two plants in 2016 and now have three in different locations to watch.
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From the 1906 Gardening Illustrated:
"As a pot-Rose Francis Dubreuil has one failing, and that is a peculiar weakness in the stalk, which causes the blooms to bend at the neck and appear on the plant quite distorted."
It might be difficult to find Teas that have been left alone to grow 8-9' these days?
Mr. Knight was a fan of 'Francis Dubreuil' for Australian gardens, and I think his nursery was in the same part of Sydney as Rookwood Necropolis. I would have expected at least one 'FD' to have been planted at Rookwood, and there has been at least one "KE" found at Rookwood. That's not proof, but it is a nice correspondence.
Virginia
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#8 of 43 posted
14 JUN 18 by
 HubertG
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Have any of the Tealadies seen the collected plantings of old roses at Rookwood cemetery in Sydney?
I haven't been there for a number of years but I do remember seeing a distinctly red Tea (maybe Tea-China) which just from memory doesn't seem to be anything I've seen on this site. Virginia's point about George Knight being close to Rookwood is a relevant one.
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The Tealadies spent quite a bit of time on and off with Barbara May at Rookwood in their research years (and checking out what all the Aus nurseries sold as Teas). The references say that there were at least three plants of this rose at Rookwood. It was also in Melbourne General Cemetery and other locations in Melbourne, in WA and in Queensland. The colour would make it popular as a mourning rose, and it's clearly a survivor, but you could even wonder if it was ever used as an understock.
One reference says it's a little difficult to strike from cuttings, which isn't what I find.
The current list of what Teas and near-Teas are around, and some of the names they're sold under, are on the HRIAI website, under Resources / Tea/Noisette/China Collection (I can't access the website at present).
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Afterthought. Actually the height/habit of "Kombacy Elyena" may be quite important.
I note Esmond Jones in 2004 wrote to me (see 2014 comment)
"The only P d S. that I ever saw looked to me to be the same thing as Stephi's red. One characteristic was it's ground hugging horizontal growth."
"Stephanie’s Red" (NSW) is the same as "Kombacy Elyena (Vic.)"
Margaret, do you recall the approximate habit of the original "Kombacy Elyena"?
Then would you read through the references for 'Friedrichsruh' and let us know what you think. Read from the bottom up.
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My larger plant of "Kombacy Elyena" does have a branch walking along the ground. Otherwise it is fairly vase-shaped.
I can't comment on the original plant, but given that it occurs in almost all of the mainland states, there must be other possible input. It isn't regarded as an HT.
The Freidrichsruh references don't mention a white petal nub or paler reverse.
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Thanks Margaret. I did find a fairly good habit description in my private correspondence, but I can't share that.
The height seems to be the main characteristic against 'Friedrichsruh' (18") for "Kombacy Elyena". (54")
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#11 of 43 posted
15 JUN 18 by
HubertG
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My two cents worth: just looking at the photos here of Kombacy Elyena, it does have quite a silvery-pink reverse and it doesn't strike me as quite matching the early colour descriptions of 'Francis Dubreuil'.
Also its foliage is quite striking and again doesn't quite fit the darker blue-green descriptions of FD's foliage, but then I'm only going by the few photos here. For those who grow it, is it generally velvety ?
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Thanks Margaret. (Yours is bigger than mine!)
Sorry Hubertg, I can't really remember, but I wouldn't have thought "Kombacy Elyena" blooms are velvety.
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#13 of 43 posted
15 JUN 18 by
HubertG
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Kombacy Elyena does sound to be a better match to 'Mlle Christine de Noue'. That was one of the other roses Knight mentioned as making a big bush, and the 1905 reference here does describe silvery petal reverses.
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Mlle Christine de Noue has matching points, but I see the "strong upright stems" as arguing against it, given Kombacy Elyena's tendency to swan necks.
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That swan's neck is what originally had me thinking of 'Francis Dubreuil' as a possible ID. It was mentioned several times as strongly characteristic of 'FD' (see references of Sep 1898, May, 1899, Nov 1905, and Jan. 1925). One of those references remarked that the "crooked stalk" was "natural to the variety"- hence an unpreventable defect.
I look at the "KE" photo from January, especially, and to me it looks as high-centered as the 1906 photo from Gardening Illustrated. Catalog and magazine illustrations, of course, were liable to exaggerate flower forms to suit the current fashion, and in some cases the same illustration stood in for several different roses, but there is a sketch from Betten's Die Rose that shows the swan's neck, so I suspect it was sketched from an actual live specimen. It also looks similar to the opening "KE" flowers in that January photo.
I have a no-name dark pink Tea that has a flat opened flower that looks very much like the "KE" photo from Oct. 2011, but at certain stages of opening, it does look high-centered, before "relaxing" into its fully open, flat form.
A couple of references mention that 'FD' opens readily- sometimes too quickly, given the fashion then for roses in a bud state. Would you say that "KE" also opens quickly and easily?
No matter what her original name was, I find "Kombacy Elyena" to be an unusually fetching rose- the droopiness and swan's necks add to her charm.
Virginia
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#16 of 43 posted
14 OCT by
HubertG
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The illustration of 'Francis Dubreuil' also appears in the 1897 edition of Betten's book and it was almost certainly etched directly from a photograph as that became a commonly used technique at the time. The 1897 version is less contrasted and even has a more 'photographic' feel to it. It's probably a pretty accurate depiction of the rose.
"Kombacy Elyena" seems to have the petal edges gently curving back in the opening flowers which is something that is suggested in the American catalogues and the 1906 photo. Maybe KE is FD, but what about the lighter more silvery reverses? I haven't seen this mentioned in any FD references.
I don't think KE could be Christine de Noue anymore.
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At least one FD reference mentioned cherry-red reflexes, but that isn't much to go on, is it?
The reverses may not have been present- or as pronounced- in European growing conditions, but with this being a rose that seems to have really found its biggest fans Down Under, I would also expect there to be some mention of FD having lighter reverses in Aussie rose literature.
Virginia
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#18 of 43 posted
14 OCT by
HubertG
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The puzzling thing about KM is that it seems to have been pretty widespread in Australia. Red teas are pretty rare and the only two very common ones were 'Souvenir de Therese Levet' and 'Francis Dubreuil'. KM isn't SdTL because that was consistently described as having yellow at the base of the petals, so perhaps we do have 'Francis Dubreuil' staring us in the face. The only specific description of the scent of FD was Ellwanger's one of apples. Does the scent of KM even approach this?
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Raspberry lollies (sweets / candies) according to people with better-trained noses than mine.
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i think “Kombacy Elyena” is very much a possibility for the original ‘Francis Dubreuil’.
Old plants have been found in four Australian States and ‘Francis Dubreuil’ had been recommended in Australia.
REVERSE
Members have referred to the whitish or silver reverse, but if one asks the internet what colour is cerise, I get almost exactly the same colour as Margaret’s 26 Oct 09 photo. Cerise was mentioned in the 'Francis Dubreuil' 1895 p294 reference.
STEMS
I feel the mentions of straight stems could have meant the structure, or the upright skeleton of the bush.
1895, p73 straight stems
1895, p213 borne erect upon strong shoots
1896-41 upright held flowers.
1910-10 stiff stems convenient for sprays and bouquets.
DROOPING BLOOMS
A little later references talk of the drooping blooms:
1898-198. blossoms have a peculiar manner of bending over
1899-169. The flowers of the last unfortunately droop
1906-365 As a pot-Rose Francis Dubreuil has one failing, and that is a peculiar weakness in the stalk, which causes the blooms to bend at the neck and appear on the plant quite distorted. Market growers have, for this reason, been obliged to discard the variety.
There are different bloom sizes mentioned throughout the references, but this could be explained by different soils and conditions. And the same for perfume - different noses.
The colour amaranth comes up often in the ‘Francis Dubreuil’ references and this colour is mentioned (Main page Notes) In connection with “Mary Ann Murray”.
My blooms of “Kombacy Elyena” at Northcliffe have certainly been tight.
1913-30 the petales are tight, not leaving any space between them
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After noting the coloring of the blooms, and the swan's neck, one of the things that made me feel "KE" could be 'FD' was how the fragrance in both cases was inconsistently described.
Knight's nursery was very close to Rookwood, and I think it likely that he would have recommended it as a good Tea to be planted there. 'FD' was also recommended for Queensland, as well as other parts of Australia, so I was encouraged to find out that "Joanna" was Queensland's name for "KE", and that it had a fairly wide distribution in Oz.
Knight included 'Francis Dubreuil' in his list of roses that were useful if one wanted 8-9' Teas, but since the last rose he mentioned was- he said- closer to 6', I think the list may not have been meant as a guarantee that all of the roses could get to 8', but rather that they were all useful as tall hedges/screens. I would be curious to know how tall any old specimens of "KE" under her aliases might be; "Joanna" for instance.
Virginia
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#22 of 43 posted
19 OCT by
HubertG
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There's a rather sinuous, 'snaky' way that the sepals fold back in the Betten illustration of FD which is also shown in several of the photos here of KE.
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Yes, I agree.
I was looking at Patricia's bloom photo from March 2011, and I thought, "velvety crimson!". I had been thinking that phrase- widely used to describe 'Francis Dubreuil'- meant a deep dark rich crimson color, but perhaps it instead- or also- referred to the velvety sheen provided by the lighter reflexes?
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Virginia, I know nothing about the height of the Queensland “Joanna” I am sorry.
The word crimson had been worrying me too, so this morning I looked through all the ‘Francis Dubreuil’ references for colour.
Then I had to water things. I’ve been meaning to go to Brent Dickerson to see what colour crimson was, but never quite got there.
Perhaps tomorrow I might look for foliage. It is certainly different on “Kombacy Elyena”.
COLOUR
1894-91 New colours, crimson red, velvety purple, with cherry bright amaranth glints.
1894-104 a shaded crimson red
1894- , red, velvety purple, with hints of bright cherry and amaranth
1894-149. crimson red, velvety purple with vivid cherry-amaranth highlights
1895-73. crimson-red velvety purple with lively cherry-red and flame-red reflexes
1895-294. crimson red colour, with the reverse of petals cerise
1895-213 deep crimson red shading to a darker hue in the outer petals, but there is no suspicious purple tint
1895-150 crimson purple velvet with hints of bright cherry and amaranth…..
1896-41 velvety crimson purple-red colour is lit with a fire-red reflection
1896-20? rich crimson shaded with rose towards the centre.
1896-25 rich maroon, but the edges of the petals are often shaded with an almost black colour.
1896-26 crimson
1897 velvety crimson
1897-91. rich maroon
1898-12. velvety crimson red with reflections of a lighter shade inclined to pink.(Chateau Eleanore)
1898-44. deep crimson with velvety shadings (John Lewis Childs)
1898. deep vivid crimson, with rich velvety shadings. (Dingee)
1898-54. velvety crimson, reflexed with cerise, and there is a peculiar and attractive black velvety shading
1898-151 red rose with shades of cherry and amaranth…
1899-40. Crimson, reverse of petals cerise. (Fruitland)
1899-169 not so useful as Papa Gontier, though of richer colour,
1900-19. Francis Dubreuil (will make around the world, one of the most velvety teas
1900-13. a velvety crimson, reflexed with amaranth and cerise
1905-2 red, with velvety shadings (Gause)
1906-23. brightest scarlet, tinted crimson.(Good and Reese)
1906-365 rich dark amaranth-red colour, with a maroon shading
1907-28. velvety purple-crimson, with amaranth cherry-red reflexes (Soupert & Notting)
1913-30 Flower oxblood red shades, velvety purple (Ketten)
1914-14 crimson-red with velvety purple (Zierbaume)
1925-189 Blood-red and maroon
1916-189 Dark crimson; very like 'Therese Levet
1926-56 deep crimson flowers, with rich velvety shadings (Dingee)
1921-230 , vivid red.
1936-220. velvety purple-crimson, vivid cherry-red and fiery amaranth reflexes
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My impression is that crimson was often used to mean a very deep or dark pink, shading to dark red. A good many roses will be a dark pink or a dark red in different seasons or growing conditions (more shade or sun, especially). I think of the color palettes of the crimson Chinas as my guide to how "crimson" was used by rosarians, and I think the "KE" photos accord well with that palette.
I see in the "KE" photos most of the colors mentioned in your very useful list- except, perhaps, maroon shaded black (1896-25)? I think I see some brownish tones in a few photos, but I wouldn't say that any of the photos depict a flower that's maroon with blackish shadings. On the other hand, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a "KE" grown under glass for forcing- or outdoors in some shade- having dark maroon flowers at some point.
I wonder about accepting some color descriptions at face value; you and I could look at the same iris, and I see a blue flower, and you see it as purple. And there has been a prejudice amongst some rosarians against dark reds that "blue" or "purple"; might someone use maroon as a descriptor to convince buyers that this is a dark red that doesn't do that? In support of that line of thought, note the 1895-213 claim that there is "no suspicious purple tint".
The 1898-12 color description ("velvety crimson red with reflections of a lighter shade inclined to pink") matches most of the photos quite well to my mind. That reference may be more valuable than some others because it isn't a sales pitch, but also because Cannes more closely approximates some Aussie growing conditions.
I'll admit that I'm not at all competent in noticing foliage differences unless they are very obvious, but I look forward to hearing what others have to say.
Thanks,
Virginia
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Virginia, would you add a translation of the 1894-104 reference please?
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It's tricky, but I gave it the old college try. I guess native French speakers know how to interpret those long strings of adjectives, but it might be verbal impressionism for them, also?
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#27 of 43 posted
19 OCT by
HubertG
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There are certainly blackish shadings on the edges of the petals in two photos of Patricia's from March 2011 (photo ids 188409 and 188410). One could also argue that the flower in photo 188409 shows regularly rounded petals as in the Rosenzeitung description of FD, and could also approach a hybrid perpetual in formation as in other descriptions.
The leaves in the Betten illustration of FD suggest a somewhat concave or shallow V-shaped form along the central vein, something also displayed in many of the photos of KE here.
Regarding the original colour of crimson :- I always think of cochineal when it comes to early carmine or crimson descriptions, but I think even then, like today, crimson was used loosely for a number of tones.
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aha, so Dubreuil showed the two roses. I was wondering if there was a parentage there somewhere. Thanks Virginia.
There is almost nothing about foliage in the references for ‘Francis Dubreuil’.
FOLIAGE
1896-41 very branched, foliaged dark bluish-green (Rosen Zeitung)
1896-22 well-branched (Rosen Zeitung)
1901-4 the crown is well branched (Rosen Zeitung)
1906-23 foliage small ( Good & Reese)
1936-220. dark bluish green foliage, (Rosenlexikon)
From the photos of “Kombacy Elyena”:
i note David Ruston’s leaves are quite elongated. (Photo 222484 uploaded April 20, 2013)
I also see those elongated leaves in Margaret’s (photo 115252 uploaded April 16, 2009) and will have a wild guess and say perhaps this was of David’s plant in hot Renmark.
Billy’s (photo 186167 uploaded Nov 7, 2011) shows similar foliage to my bush - dark green, undulated and well foliated.
Margaret’s (photo 115254 uploaded Apr 16, 2009) also shows similar dark green and undulated foliage
SEPALS
Well shown in the illustration from Betten's book 'Die Rose', 1897 edition, page 185.
I can see those snaky sepals in David Ruston’s blooms at 12 o’clock and 9 o’clock. (photo 222484 uploaded April 20, 2013)
and my bloom (photo 188410 uploaded Dec 9, 2011)
and Billy’s (photo 186168 uploaded Nov 9, 2011)
Do other teas have these snaky sepals?
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Now that you point it out, those are blackish shadings, aren't they? They certainly do contribute to the velvety effect, but I wouldn't call that maroon, would you?
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Leonie K says her "Joanna" is about 1.2m high and wide. One plant came to her from an elderly Frenchman as Souv. de Therese Levet, but it isn't that.
My K. Elyena is about 1.8m high.
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#32 of 43 posted
21 OCT by
HubertG
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Just throwing this out there as idle speculation ... Is it possible that "Joanna" isn't identical to "Kombacy Elyena", just very similar, and it could be in fact the real 'Souvenir de Therese Levet'? Does anyone have any photos of "Joanna" so we can compare? 'Francis Dubreuil' and 'Souvenir de Therese Levet' were always being compared to each and said to be very similar, so if a rose with some sort of provenance (correct or otherwise) as SdTL is thought to be the same as a foundling that we are considering to be FD, perhaps "Joanna" needs closer scrutiny.
The rose distributed as 'Souvenir de Therese Levet' in Australia doesn't have a yellow base as in early descriptions and it doesn't set hips (unlikely to be the seed parent of 'General Gallieni') so perhaps this Frenchman did have the real SdTL.
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I haven't seen "Joanna", but have just asked Leonie for cuttings so we can compare them in the ground.
Re K Elyena: I don't think such a tightly-petalled rose would open quickly.
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#34 of 43 posted
21 OCT by
HubertG
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That's great Margaret. They very well could be identical but it's certainly worth comparing them. The Tea Rose book says SdTL was reintroduced into Australia in 1982 from Sangerhausen. If this old French man's SdTL predates this it could be authentic and the Sangerhausen one incorrect.
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#35 of 43 posted
22 OCT by
HubertG
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Thanks too, Margaret, for uploading those couple of photos of "Joanna". My first impression is that it isn't the same as "Kombacy Elyena" - the petals seem broader and longer, lighter crimson - but that's only comparing the photos here. It would be good if it turned out to be the true 'Souvenir de Therese Levet'. It certainly isn't the rose sold in Australia as SdTL, which (as I've commented before) possibly isn't correct.
Do you think "Joanna" looks to be the same as "Kombacy Elyena"?
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Margaret, perhaps if you could get wood of “Kombacy Elyena” up to Leonie so she could compare the both too.
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Will do. I need to check current quarantine restrictions re bringing cuttings here, but the other direction should be OK.
I'm not sure Joanna has as many petals as K. Elyena, but Teas are so variable.
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To turn the question around: if Leonie K's rose from the elderly Frenchman turns out to be the same as "Kombacy Elyena" when they're grown side by side, are both the true Souvenir de Therese Levet?
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Do you think at least one ‘Souvenir de Therese Levet’ reference might have made mention of “Kombacy Elyena’s” drooping blooms?
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#40 of 43 posted
3 days ago by
HubertG
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I'd like to know if either "Kombacy Elyena" or "Joanna" can develop very dark blooms in summer like a few of the early SdTL references mention. I'm imagining that it's a bit like what 'General Gallieni', the offspring of SdTL, does at times. I can see jonquils in the vase in LeonieK "Joanna" photos, so I'm assuming that was taken late winter. Also, are there any more details known about how or when the elderly French gent started growing his 'Souvenir de Therese Levet'?
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The yellow base for S de TL doesn't fit either.
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#42 of 43 posted
2 days ago by
HubertG
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Margaret, do you mean the yellow base description doesn't fit for "Joanna", "Kombacy Elyena", or both? I thought I could see a yellowish tone in the photos of "Joanna" but it could be the lighting.
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It doesn't fit K Elyena.
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Pretty rose.
The name is creeping me out, lol. I think it is supposed to be romantic, however.
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Maybe rose growers should get together and select new names for the new introductions with the weird names. 'Crush on You', for example. I understand that the breeders don't get to select the names, or even which roses will be introduced into commerce; that gets done by marketing departments.
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Not only that. I wish they would leave "eyes" alone for the Hulthemia looking types. Perhaps this has some of that in the background, but it doesn't look like it and they don't advertise it has any of the heat or drought benefits you would hope might come from those genes. Apparently little to no attention has been paid to those traits. Only to the "target" in the flower center.
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