HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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Questions, Answers and Comments by Category
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'Papaya Panarosa' is described as 6' by Ludwig's, and the photos for it are more on the copper side than carrot or mango side of orange. Fryer's 'Wildfire' is quite short.
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The description page for 'Alexander Hill Gray' says "sets no hips". I've always found mine sets hips (which hold seeds) fairly readily. I find this a bit puzzling.
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#1 of 19 posted
4 days ago by
 HMF Admin
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And this is exactly why comments like yours are so useful and what makes HMF so special. At some point in time, a permanent reference indicated otherwise and now we know that reference is in question based on your experience.
We need more people take the time to share their experience - Thanks !
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I certainly wouldn't discount that reference Admin. What we need is more of them to say if this rose does, or does not set hips. The fact that we show just one 1922 descendant indicates that it does not, and therefore there is a possibility that HubertG has received a rose other than 'Alexander Hill Gray'. Every reference is valuable.
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#3 of 19 posted
4 days ago by
HubertG
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Thanks HMF Admin,
This site is a veritable commonwealth of rose knowledge; the more contributions the better.
Patricia, I have two bushes of AHG ordered from different nurseries maybe 5 years apart. They are both the same and both do set hips. They do look the same as other AHGs in Australia posted here (I've posted a few photos of mine too) This is a double rose but not what I'd call a full one and so they have normal looking reproductive parts and, if insects can get in, I can't see any reason (barring an odd ploidy) why it shouldn't set hips. That's why I thought the no hips reference was unusual. By the time AHG was introduced Teas were waning in popularity, so that is probably the likeliest reason it wasn't used much in breeding, in my opinion.
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#4 of 19 posted
4 days ago by
HubertG
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There are in fact a couple of hips on Margaret Furness' photo here:
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.304447
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That is interesting HubertG. They are hard to see, but I do see them.
I suspect Margaret didn't note them as she has said in her more recent photo 315211 that her plant didn't set hips.
Unfortunately 'Alexander Hill Gray' never came my way, so I have no first-hand experience. How else can I help here?
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#6 of 19 posted
4 days ago by
HubertG
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Best to wait for more comments on this topic, I'd say.
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Maybe it varies with how the weather has been. There's nothing on mine now that I would call a hip. It doesn't flower much in a dry summer.
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Do your 'Alexander Hill Gray' plants have prickles HubertG?
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#9 of 19 posted
4 days ago by
HubertG
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No, it's virtually thornless. I took some photos this morning of a few hips on one of my AHGs, which I'll post later.
Its thornlessness was the reason I had previously questioned whether it might have in fact been Mme Derepas-Metrat, one of the other "Yellow Cochets", because that was nearly thornless according to references, and thornlessness is a rarity in early roses.
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#10 of 19 posted
3 days ago by
HubertG
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There were five hips on one of my plants this morning. I didn't check the other plant. The split hip is one I collected about April, showing the seeds. I do think the weather conditions play a part; AHG does tend to ball a bit, so if it doesn't open, it won't become fertilised.
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HubertG, I have added a few more references. I have more but it is late and I don't think any more are relevant. Take a look at the 1939 reference. I suspect there may be different versions of 'Alexander Hill Gray' in Australia as the 1998 reference says this rose fades. Most other references says it deepens.
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The plant at Renmark derived from the one at Bishop's Lodge, via John Nieuwesteeg. Mine has fallen off my list of provenances, but it's likely it was a spare from when I grew the one for Renmark from cuttings (which is partly why I have too many roses).
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#13 of 19 posted
yesterday by
HubertG
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Patricia, lots of good new references! The most puzzling aspect for me is not so much the hips or whether the colour fades or deepens but the fragrance which is nearly always described as strong. Sangerhausen gives AHG an 8/10 for fragrance, which is the same they give Marechal Niel, and they also only give Mrs Foley Hobbs (which I find has a stronger fragrance than AHG) a 5/10. I'd only rate AHG about a 3/10 for fragrance. I know fragrance is very subjective, but I think I have a good nose.If the fragrance description in old references varied a lot, or if there were lots of omissions on the fragrance description, I could understand, but it is fairly consistently rated as strong.
Margaret, did Bishop's Lodge have a known specimen of AHG, or was it a found bush that was later given AHG as it's identity? Maybe there are two versions of AHG in Australia. Maybe Mme Derepas-Metrat is one of them, after all they were both "Yellow Cochets". Does your Bishop's lodge AHG with the needle-like thorns have a good fragrance?
Also the 1925 Darlington (English) reference is puzzling because it describes a plant "up to 8-ft, or a little more under glass". My two bushes are barely waist height.
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I think the Bishop's Lodge plant would have been identified by John N and David Ruston. As far as I know, but am willing to be corrected, none of the BL plants were labelled.
The plant from Melbourne General Cemetery was identified by Roy Rumsey, who had grown it years earlier.
I'll check fragrance when it flowers again, but I'm not a good judge. My plant is small too so far.
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#15 of 19 posted
yesterday by
HubertG
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I just found and uploaded a 1919 catalogue photo of a whole bunch of 'Alexander Hill Gray' (photo Id:319773). There are thorns visible on the stems and although they don't seem "needle-like" because they are fairly wide, they are quite straight. If it is to be believed, it is also interesting in that the flower form seems to vary considerably from what I grow as AHG. I'd be interested in seeing more of Margaret Furness' prickled Bishop's Lodge AHG later on when it's in flower to compare.
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#16 of 19 posted
today by
HubertG
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From "The Garden", Oct 10, 1908 page 493:
"SOME NEW ROSES OF 1908.
...there are other Roses not yet distributed which have obtained a gold medal. To refer to them would be going beyond the scope of these notes; but an exception, however, must be made in favour of a yellow Tea named A. Hill Gray. This Rose promises to be a favourite for the garden and suitable for exhibition. The growth is branching but somewhat slender, free-flowering habit, blooms fairly full, colour yellow, shaded white.
Joseph H. Pemberton"
And from "The Garden", Sep 26, 1908, page 465
"NEW SEEDLING ROSES AT THE AUTUMN SHOW.
A. Hill Gray. - A Tea raised by Messrs. Alexander Dickson and Sons of Newtownards, Ireland. A beautiful Rose of excellent shape, well staged on a tall stand. Delightful pale yellow colouring, fragrant and a good grower; undoubtedly the finest Rose staged in the class. The award of a gold medal was practically unanimous. Good Teas are scarce and are very welcome, especially when up to exhibition standards.
Herbert E. Molyneux"
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Thanks HubertG. References added.
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I've just added a few more references to Alexander Hill Gray, including a couple (1954 and 1938) that refer to thornless stems.
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#19 of 19 posted
today by
HubertG
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Billy, they're very interesting because they seem to be the only early references to the lack of thorns, and they are local too. If both AHG and Mme Derepas-Metrat were virtually thornless, I wonder if AHG was bred from the other. It makes sense that if you had a rose praised as a yellow Cochet in MmeDM, to use it to try to raise something better. And if that were the case, AHG's tendency to sometimes blush pink could be inherited from MmeDM's pollen parent Marie van Houtte. Pure speculation of course.
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Half of the nurseries bought like 20-30 Mister Lincolns each, and none of this rose. Holy crap. Why? Mister Lincoln is like 10' here, lol. A few nurseries ordered in 5 or so Lasting Love, which is okay, but completely defoliates here. I will never understand the nursery business mindset.
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Mr. Lincoln is a sparse bloomer, so it doesn't use up the calcium/potassium in a pot, esp. for a high-rain climate, which leaches out those nutrients. Mr. Lincoln always look good in a pot at local store.
Firefighter is a heavy bloomer, which depletes calcium/potassium, and it breaks out in blackspot AFTER blooming, unless those minerals are abundant, as in alkaline clay. My Firefighter improved after I moved from acidic potting soil to heavy alkaline clay. So the stingy roses like Mr. Lincoln look really healthy in a pot, but the heavy bloomers: Firefighter, Buxom Beauty can be blackspot-fest after done with blooming.
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For this area (NW Oregon), Firefighter is healthy enough. Just the lower 1/3rd was affected. 'Velvet Fragrance' was by far the healthiest fragrant red HT I have grown here, but the blooms turn to rice crispies if the sun even looks at it sideways. lol
Mister Lincoln can get up to 2-3" diameter wood here. It is a literal monster. 'Oklahoma's is the same way. The modern garden just cannot accommodate here. My question/rant was more-so local nursery owners not realizing that or reaching out to the local societies for updated information, like they used to do.
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HMF is the best source for info., but I wish folks would specify their soil & climate & planting zone & what region of the country. People want to hold on to "old generalizations", rather than learning. Like nearby rose park, I was shocked to see them dumping sulfur in the spring... they burnt Tamora (prefers alkaline), also induced RRD (rose rosette disease) on Pink Traviata (Meilland rose) which also prefers alkaline. Gypsum is acidic, I killed lots of earthworms using that stuff, and it burns my finger. Gypsum has calcium plus sulfur.
I made the same mistake years ago: dumping sulfur plus high nitrogen chemical fertilizer on a Grandma' Blessing rose, changing my soil pH to acidic. It immediately came down with RRD five years ago. That's the ONLY rose with RRD in my 30+ years of growing roses, among 100+ varieties. I planted Radio Times in the exact spot, but I raised the pH with more alkaline clay, and no RRD ever since. I wish folks would stop generalizations, "Mr. Lincoln for fragrant reds", "roses prefer acidic", and "roses need full-sun". Own-root roses are completely different from each other.
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Rice crispies....got a nice laugh from that lol
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#4 of 7 posted
3 FEB by
ac91z6
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Replying because I want to archive all the information in this post for future reference about Mr. Lincoln and Firefighter. Good information here!
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I would put Claret and Firefighter as the best deep red sniffers sold in North America at the moment, although I know more are coming in the future. I would rate Heart Song behind, although the plant is superior, the scent is only half of the other sniffers.
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Have you tried asking nursery owners how they go about their selections?
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I also did research on Simsalabim. I have wanted it forever and could never get my hands on it.
The word is Scandinavian in origin. Appeared in a America in the 1900 used in a magic show, by a magician named Dante.
And yes Sim Sala Bim = Abracadabra.
Funny I had some thought about how much Simsalabim pictures looked like my Abracadabra!
Thank you Kim for bringing this up.
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#1 of 4 posted
2 days ago by
Xoan Mos
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Hi,
I am looking for a rose called abracadabra.
Can anyone point me to where I can get a cutting???
Much appreciated,
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I do not know about a cutting. You can buy a rooted plant from forloveofroses.com
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#3 of 4 posted
yesterday by
Xoan Mos
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AzRose Lady,
Thank you so much for this its really helpful.
I visited the site and found similar roses but I couldn't find the Abracadabra.
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It is under Floribunda. That is its current classification.
https://forloveofroses.com/product-category/floribunda-roses/
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