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Discussion id : 110-156
most recent 30 APR SHOW ALL
Initial post 23 APR by rafael maino
Found tea, noisette? rose in Buenos Aires Province, Argentina. Vigorous, fragrant flowers, double or semi double, beautiful when buds, open loose,bushy, 250 cm high x 200 cm width. It flower all season, occasional repeat, later in the season, middle green leaves.I ask if It could be 'L'Ideal', G. Nabonnand 1887??
Reply #1 of 13 posted 23 APR by Patricia Routley
Hello Rafael,
My gut feeling is that it is not 'L'Ideal'. I spent a couple of hours adding a few more references to the 'L'Ideal' file and it seems that 'L'Ideal' may have been small to medium plant, with a small to medium sized, semi-double bloom. It was often mentioned alongside 'William Allen Richardson' and I think that may be a smaller sized bloom. Your photo with your hand in it (315489) seems to show quite a large bloom. Another gut feeling (of which I am not quite sure about) is that blooms with that spiky pointed outline might be that of a more modern rose. I really hope that other people might contribute their thoughts on this beautiful rose.

Perhaps it might be valuable to look at 'L'Ideal's descendants to see if any tiny scrap of knowledge can be gleaned from those roses.

If you would like us to make a file for your foundling, please let us know the "study name".
Reply #2 of 13 posted 23 APR by Margaret Furness
A wonderful find, whatever it is!
Reply #4 of 13 posted 23 APR by rafael maino
And Thank you Margaret!!!, she is very pretty in bud....not so much when open....but have a good fragrance
Reply #3 of 13 posted 23 APR by rafael maino
Thank you Patricia for your interest!!, I take cuttings from the plant (from Buenos Aires) and now grows in my garden, with very different climate and soil ( and I hope she pass the winter...this is the third...), I think that many characteristics match with the references of L'Ideal, especially the color and shape of the flowers when it said that have very good shape in bud, loose when expanded...and it's not so big, no more than 8 cm diameter. Any way this is a strange rose, and L'Ideal become a strange rose too since there are no photos at all, only the chromolithography.
Best regards!!
Reply #5 of 13 posted 23 APR by rafael maino
I give her a study name "Juani de Temperley", Juani is a affectionate diminutive of Juana, the name of the lady owner of the garden where I found the rose, and Temperley is a suburb of Buenos Aires, originally inhabited by many English immigrants.
Reply #6 of 13 posted 23 APR by Patricia Routley
File opened. Let's leave the photos where they are for a couple of days to give others a chance to look at them and respond.
Reply #7 of 13 posted 24 APR by HubertG
How's this for being fanciful/imaginative?

Louise Bourbonnaud was a wealthy Parisian philanthropist and socialite who I believe travelled extensively including to Buenos Airies. She had a Nabonnand rose named after her. Perhaps someone (English or not) had met her during her travels and ordered her rose to grow. The description seems to match fairly well. 'Louise Bourbonnaud' is from G. Nabonnand x Gen. Schablikine.

Chances are it isn't this, but something to think about.
Reply #8 of 13 posted 25 APR by Patricia Routley
Rafael, is there any history attached to the rose? (how long it has been there). I am not sure if the size of the stump (base) will be of any use, as the stump of a 50 year old rose might be the same as that of a 100 year old rose.
You say " It flower all season, occasional repeat, later in the season". Can you be more definite in that?
Does it set hips? Any photos?
Reply #9 of 13 posted 26 APR by Margaret Furness
Teas can get very big, and some don't take long to do it. Do you think your Juani is a climber, or just an old bush?
Reply #10 of 13 posted 26 APR by rafael maino
Hi Patricia and Margaret!, I'm sorry but I can't answer about how old is the "mother" plant, and how it was treated (pruned, etc) to know the size of the plant (people here sometimes prune the roses like HT...), any way she seemed not so pruned at all or not so much...I am telling this vagueness because I am now in my house in Patagonia and the rose it's in Buenos Aires, and the owner is not a close friend (and she is an old lady...). But I remember when I saw the rose was nearly end of autumn and it have only a few flowers and buds (and Buenos Aires have a very temperate climate), the plant looked very vigorous and healthy, and was about 250 cm high (2,50 m), it don't look like a climber, rather bushy. My plant that I take from cuttings it's well growing here in my garden, it's almost three years old and it's near 90 cm high now, it flower all season in flushes, but now (autumn) have no buds and I think she is going to sleep!!, I think it does no hips but any way we must consider that my plant it's very young, and probably she will do when grows. I put a photo here of the general look of the plant mother, I don't know if the photo shows well the appearance. I will try to talk with the lady colleague of Asociaci├│n Argentina de Rosicultura, Buenos Aires, who take me to see the rose to her friend house, may be she can send me more photos. Thank you Ladies!!
Reply #11 of 13 posted 26 APR by Patricia Routley
Our pleasure Rafael.
Reply #12 of 13 posted 27 APR by Patricia Routley
I think it is time to move those photos now. I'll do it for you Rafael. It is a great pity that nobody has replied publicly, but I have shared in a private email from a rosarian who had a most interesting thought on this rose. I'll get her permission to share it with you in the new file.
Reply #13 of 13 posted 30 APR by rafael maino
Thank you Patricia!!
Discussion id : 109-437
most recent 22 MAR HIDE POSTS
Initial post 21 MAR by Ozoldroser
"Vine View Dk Red Purple" I would like to make a new file for this rose. Alerted to this garden in Williamstown, South Australia by the owner in April 2014. At first I thought it was a HP but not so sure now. This cutting grown plant is in some shade and is regularly watered with rainwater and fertilised
Reply #1 of 5 posted 21 MAR by Jay-Jay
Reminds me a bit of Souvenir du Docteur Jamain. (See my post of may 6 2017 for that rose)
Reply #2 of 5 posted 21 MAR by Patricia Routley
New file for "Vine View Dark Red Purple" opened and photos moved. I will comment further in that file.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 22 MAR by Ozoldroser
Thank you Jay-Jay many of the descriptions of 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' fit this rose. Perfume I would rate higher though.
Reply #4 of 5 posted 22 MAR by Jay-Jay
I would rate it (much) higher too, as You might read in one comment for that rose.
Lots of people, that visit our garden, fell as a block for this rose, mainly due to the scent, but to the color, the ability to grow in the (partial) shade and the (almost) lack of prickles too.
It stands at the entrance of our garden to be sniffed regularly, when flowering... and that's what I do.

PS: Members rate the scent as excellent too.
Maybe an idea to rate scent in:
- absent
- faint
- present
- strong
- very strong
- overwhelming
Reply #5 of 5 posted 22 MAR by Ozoldroser
Thank you Jay-Jay.
Discussion id : 107-828
most recent 7 FEB HIDE POSTS
Initial post 7 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
It is rather scant evidence to go on at present, but can anyone tell anything from these pieces of rose as to what variety it might be? There is more information in the Journal section. It climbs to at least 3 metres and has short triangular pale brown and slightly hooked thorns and probably not a rose bred or collected after the beginning of the twentieth century. I will post more pictures as it begins to grow.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 7 FEB by Margaret Furness
I like your fireplace!
Reply #2 of 2 posted 7 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you for commenting on this and not my filthy table cloth. Almost every house around here, grand or small has a fire place almost the same as this, Mine was re-built some years back because of a chimney fire but there should also be a bread oven built in at the side. The picture is of the site where I found the rose.
Discussion id : 97-962
most recent 11 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 11 MAR 17 by Andrew from Dolton
A few minutes walk from where I live, deep in the woods by the river Torridge is the remains of Dye Cottage. Abandoned 100 years ago, today I discovered by the entrance a couple of shoots of a rose. It has small pointed prickles on the older wood but is very unlikely that it will flower this year. It produces suckers. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what it could possibly be? Needless to say it has been rustled!
Reply #1 of 38 posted 11 MAR 17 by Nastarana
Whatever it might be it does have attractive foliage.
Reply #2 of 38 posted 11 MAR 17 by Andrew from Dolton
Indeed, I will just have to wait to see it in flower although it might not be until next year.
Reply #6 of 38 posted 30 JUN by scvirginia
Well, great- now we're ALL impatiently waiting for blooms. Yes, the foliage is quite fine; I like those reddish margins, but have no idea what they might indicate, ancestry-wise.

A nice find.
Reply #7 of 38 posted 30 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
When it stops tipping down with rain outside I will take some better pictures. I don't care if it is something common-place, what fascinates me is just discovering the name of an unknown plant. I would say I have a reasonably good eye and knowlege, but it does not look like any rose I can put my finger on. Just 10 minuites on foot from my door step, I found, 'Paul Lede', 'Turner's Crimson', R carolina 'Plena' and this rose. Then a short drive away a massive multiflora type rose by the side of the road with white flowers and very pretty deep pink buds. And Rosa dumalis, growing in the hedges, when most books say it only grows in the north. Of course none of these are lost, believed extinct or new but they are not common roses, just a few specialist nurseries are selling them. Interesting roses are all around us, where ever we live.
Reply #8 of 38 posted 30 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
Here are some new pictures. Dye Cottage was abandoned by World War I so I would estimate that for a variety of rose to have been bred, marketed and found its way to a remote part of Devon it must have been raised just at the turn of the century or earlier. The people living at the cottage would never have had the money to buy a plant, it would almost certainly have been aquired as a cutting or sucker. I could of course have been an understock, but in the U.K. you only really see laxa or 'Alba Simplex'.
It suckers from the roots and has quite a distinctive row of good sized prickles running along the mid-rib on the back of the leaf and incredibly healthy, not a hint of blackspot on it any where.
The very second a flower opens I will post a picture here.
Reply #9 of 38 posted 1 JUL by scvirginia
With foliage that clean and pretty, it almost doesn't matter what the flower looks like... though I guess it might help with finding an ID. Assuming it ever had a name, and wasn't a no-name volunteer?

I am jealous of your R. carolina plena. It is not in commerce in the U.S., as far as I can tell.


PS There was a period when Manetti was used in England for rootstock, but I don't think that's what you have there?
Reply #10 of 38 posted 1 JUL by Andrew from Dolton
Yes, it is similar to 'Manetti', and similar to other roses too!
Sorry Virginia, I made a mistake, it was cinnamomea 'Plena', not carolina. There is a lots of it growing in a hedgerow where a cottage was until 1900, Patricia helped me identify it last year. If the import/export rules were different I could send you "any amount" of this rose!
Reply #3 of 38 posted 11 MAR 17 by Give me caffeine
"Needless to say it has been rustled!"

Are you saying there was a rustle in the bushes?
Reply #4 of 38 posted 11 MAR 17 by Andrew from Dolton
There was a certain amount of rustling bushes involved and a covert night time operation as the whole area is a nature reserve.
Reply #5 of 38 posted 11 MAR 17 by Give me caffeine
You'd better hope MI5 doesn't have this site under surveillance. ;)
Reply #11 of 38 posted 30 MAY by Andrew from Dolton
The rose is flowering now, every shoot carries buds. I think it is 'Manettii' but the description says "thornless or almost" and this is very prickly.
Reply #12 of 38 posted 30 MAY by scvirginia
I can't tell from just the one photo, but do you think it could be 'De la Grifferaie'?

Just a thought,
Reply #13 of 38 posted 30 MAY by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you Virginia, I'll take more pictures at the weekend when more of the flowers are out, it is very free flowering.

Best wishes, Andrew.
Reply #14 of 38 posted 14 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Here is a picture of the whole plant, it had all flopped over and I had to stake it up so it looks a bit strange whilst the shoots turn around toward the light.
Reply #15 of 38 posted 14 days ago by scvirginia
The stakes make it look like a HP, but could it be a climber if it's that floppy?

The flowers are really beautiful, but too double, I think, for 'Manetti'? Is the color closer to the magenta in the photo of the one bloom above, or more of the mid-pink in the whole plant photo? Lighting, flowers and cameras don't always tell the whole truth... Since she's prickly, I'm wondering about 'Climbing Caroline Testout', or even 'Climbing American Beauty'... I don't think you've mentioned fragrance?

Reply #16 of 38 posted 14 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Hello Virginia,

The blooms just above my satellite dish are very typical, if anything they are a stronger pink than in the picture (almost 'Z├ęphirine Drouhin' pink) with distinctive paler backs to the petals and they fade as they age making more of a contrast between new and older flowers.
It could possibly be a climber. Every leaf node produced a shoot with flower buds, not just on the stems that bent over but on the shorter upright ones as well.
The cottage was abandoned by the first world war so I imagine it would have had to have been bred before 1900. The people living there would not ever have gone to a nursery and bought a plant or even have had one given to them. They would have been very poor and Dye Cottage would have been, and still is to some extent, very remote. The rose sends up suckers around its base and this is how they would have acquired it.
The flowers are mildly scented. I will post a more detailed picture when it's light tomorrow.

Best wishes, Andrew

edit. The sepals are long and twisted together
Reply #17 of 38 posted 13 days ago by Patricia Routley
"Dye Cottage" is a very lovely find, Andrew.
The leaves, long sepals, and suckering remind me of the Australian foundling "Mrs. Something". However, I believe it is not the same because
"Dye Cottage" does not have enough petals, is only mildly scented, and does not have the mass of balling buds at the tip of the canes.
I agree with Virginia, it is not Manetti (either the U.S. or Australian versions)
I suspect it is not 'Mme. Caroline Testout' because I am not seeing the center ball of petals evident in Testout and the leaf seems different.
I don't have 'de la Grifferaie' but you might like to have a look at the 2011 reference for that rose. A photo of the stipule will definitely confirm if it is, or isn't ''De la Grifferaie'.

In the meantime, if there is still a bud to photograph, a side-on shot will help.
Watch the bush for any hip set.
The signature for "Dye Cottage" seems to be that every leaf node produces a flower.
Reply #18 of 38 posted 12 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you Patricia, how exciting.
It is definitely not 'de la Grifferaie', the older blooms do go paler but not to that extent and I can not see much multiflora in it if at all. The sepals are wrong for 'Mrs Something' and it does not have such sophisticated shape as Testout and I'm pretty sure it will only flower once. Yes, producing a flower at every node is one of its most distinctive features. I still think it looks like 'Manettii' , although I have never seen that growing in the U.K., if it was commonly used as a rootstock here I would have thought it would have been more well known or it would be more common as a found rose.
I have to say how disappointed I am in my fellow British countrymen. We are supposed to have some of the world's best gardens, we are passionate gardeners, we even have a rose as our national flower! Yet our contribution to this website is very tardy at best. In Australia, for example, you have a population of less than London yet you manage to find dozens of incredibly interesting found roses. In two years and just minutes walk away I have found five roses. so over the country as a whole there must be hundreds awaiting discovery if only people bothered and spent a little time and effort.
Reply #19 of 38 posted 12 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Reply #24 of 38 posted 12 days ago by scvirginia
Patricia, can this discussion be moved to the comments section for the new rose record? And, regardless of whether the discussion can be moved, shouldn't the photos be reassigned?

How to proceed?

Reply #20 of 38 posted 12 days ago by scvirginia
I guess the color is too blue-ish for either of the roses I named. Also, they do rebloom, and I'm not sure yours does?

I think Patricia's right, that "Dye Cottage" (or whatever foundling name you'd prefer) should have its own page, so that it can easily be found, and I think (maybe?) that she can move this discussion to the comments section of the new page?

Speaking of the cottage, was this rose planted near the building... as in, could it have been a climber growing on the cottage?

It's certainly a lovely thing, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that it could be a chance seedling. Still, if it suckers a bit, that could explain how a named cultivar might have ended up in the garden of folks without money for plants. That really makes more sense than the leftover rootstock theory, since that implies that someone purchased a grafted plant at some point.

It's a lovely find.

Reply #21 of 38 posted 12 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you Virginia. I'll try and get time to post some more pictures this evening. I might even walk down to the river and take a better picture of Dye Cottage, the rose must have grown for almost a hundred years in dense woodland and probably didn't flower for decades. It was near enough the house to have been climbing on the wall, actually near the front door. Just 100M away across the stream is an old derelict mill. I found 'Paul Ricault' growing there and also a rambler that at first I thought was 'Turner's Crimson', but it is not that. It looks like 'Excelas' but the flowers are bigger and darker. I'll post pictures of that too.
It would be great if 'Dye Cottage Rose' could have its own study page, thank you for that.
It grew those canes all last year but only flowered on them this spring so I am making a bit of a guess about it being once flowering. There are masses of new shoots coming from the base but none from anywhere else except to produce a flower. It could too have been spread around by cuttings too, 'Paul Ricault' and the rambler rose struck very easily.
Reply #22 of 38 posted 12 days ago by scvirginia
You can post your photos here:

Please look it over to see what I've omitted or gotten wrong. If you know more about the cottage itself that might be helpful. You said it was abandoned before WW!, so I gave the date as before 1914, but if you know that it was abandoned well before that...

I don't know if I can move this discussion, but I'll give it a try...

ETA: No, I don't think I can move it.

Reply #23 of 38 posted 12 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
That's great Virginia, thank you.
Reply #25 of 38 posted 12 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
I've posted pictures on the "Dye Cottage Rose" study profile.
Reply #26 of 38 posted 12 days ago by Marlorena
Hi Andrew,

Just wanted to say what a gorgeous rose you found there, and if I might take a guess as to its identity, what struck me when I first saw it was that it looked like a Bourbon rose, and the one closest to it, I think, is 'Bourbon Queen'.... have you considered that at all?... let me know what you or Virginia think about it...

Hi Virginia, hope you're doing o.k. nice to 'see' you here again..
Reply #27 of 38 posted 12 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Hello Marlorena,

I was just thinking today when I was taking the pictures that the stems were like 'Boule de Neige' and yes I think you are right it is very similar to Bourbon Queen', look at this picture from orsola,
Well that solved that little mystery, thank you.
Are you enjoying this warm sunny weather? My roses, and garden in general, have never looked healthier!


Ps. my comments above about the British and roses wasn't aimed at you.
Reply #33 of 38 posted 11 days ago by Marlorena
Hi again Andrew, nice to talk to you, I'm so thrilled about your found rose, and such a romantic and historical location to find it.

I'm also pleased that you think my suggestion maybe close to the mark, and no problem about the British, I couldn't agree more, and I blame t.v. to some extent - gardening programmes now seem terrified to mention roses, you wouldn't think anyone grew them here if your only source was television... they even get a scant mention on the Chelsea Flower Show... It's all about landscaping today I think...

Incidentally, we all grew up in a Cob cottage back in the 50's/60's.. still standing today... most of my family lived there from 1904-1960's... all rather quaint and old worldly...

Yes great year for roses, one of the best I've had.... not much rain about either to spoil the effects...
Enjoy your roses today Andrew, talk again soon..
Reply #31 of 38 posted 11 days ago by scvirginia
Marlorena, you are very clever to see the resemblance to 'Bourbon Queen'.

I was looking at 'Champion of the World' as a possibility, but it is thornless, apparently, so no go there. I hadn't thought of 'Bourbon Queen', though. It is described as having a strong, sweet fragrance, but we all know that fragrance is variable, as is our ability to perceive it, so that's hardly a deal-breaker.

Hope your summer garden is all abloom,
Reply #34 of 38 posted 11 days ago by Marlorena
Hi Virginia... thanks so much, I'm delighted you think I was on the right track..

Roses in full bloom here, I'm almost swamped but I rather like it that way... I hope all is blooming in SC...we miss you at the other place... take care, talk again soon..
Reply #28 of 38 posted 12 days ago by Patricia Routley
Thank you Virginia. The new page for "Dye Cottage Rose" looks good. Andrew, are you happy with the word Rose? I am thinking if there may be another rose found at Dye Cottage later on.
I have tried to move a photo out of this comment and into "Dye Cottage Rose". It was the initial one of the old cottage in the forest.
However, there is a problem which Admin has not quite got to as yet.

(ADMIN - You need to add that image type (eg bloom, leaves, hips) to photos added to comments.)

So...Andrew, I thnk it best if you just re-add your wonderful photos in this comment, direct into "Dye Cottage Rose".
I won't copy and paste all the comments, (thinking here of the doubling up of HelpMeFind's data) but will glean them for pertinent points and add material to "Dye Cottage Rose".
Reply #29 of 38 posted 12 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Thanks so much Patricia, yes just "Dye Cottage" is fine. However I think Marlorena might have solved the identity as 'Bourbon Queen'.
Reply #30 of 38 posted 12 days ago by Patricia Routley
I will respond further in "Dye Cottage Rose".
Reply #32 of 38 posted 11 days ago by scvirginia
Thanks, Patricia- I'd thought that the problem with being able to reassign photos had been fixed, but apparently not. I didn't try it myself, but assume that if you can't, I can't.

Please feel free to "flesh out" the skeleton of the record.

Reply #35 of 38 posted 11 days ago by HMF Admin
Hi Virginia,

The plant photo tab will now include photos which do not have any image type designation but they should be edited to include the appropriate image type attributes.
Reply #36 of 38 posted 11 days ago by scvirginia
Thanks- I've moved the photos, and designated the image types.

Reply #37 of 38 posted 11 days ago by HMF Admin
Thank you for your participation, and patience, on HMF.
Reply #38 of 38 posted 11 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you Virginia and Patricia from me as well.
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