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Recent Questions, Answers and Comments
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I feel stupid asking this, as Excelsa is wichurana / luciae and Turner's Crimson is multiflora, but would someone who grows both please post comparison photos? Trying to ID a foundling. It has feathery stipules, but so does what I assume to be Hiawatha (luciae) from the same roadside patch.
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Quit feeling stupid. You’re LOOKING at a rose and that is smart. It is well known that most multifloras have feathery stipules, but in my garden most wich’s ALSO have this trait. Just take a look at the parentage tree of ‘Excelsa’ and you will see where the feathery stipules come from.
I think basically, a multi has matt leaves and a wich has shiny. Ignore the word luciae - just concentrate on multi and wich. You might also like to read the 2008 reference for ‘Turner’s Crimson Rambler’ which may help you know what sort of bush it is.
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Hello Margaret,
Here are leaves from 'Excelsa' and 'Turner's Crimson'. 'T C' has a more shrub like grow whilst 'E' shoots are quite brambly with its Wichurana blood. 'T C' often has two little leaflets by the stipule facing the opposite way to the other leaves. There is a good picture that Patricia has posted of 'T. C'. 'T. C' leaves are paler and generally not so shiny as 'E'. Both have featery stipules but 'T. C' are particularly bristly.
Regards Andrew.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.147304
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Thanks Andrew. I have the impression from your photo that Excelsa's leaves are slightly rounded, compared to Turner's Crimson.
Ramblers are survivors here, reflecting their ability to root down (layer themselves). I'm adding a couple of photos of what I think is Excelsa, where it can't have been watered for decades. The first has Excelsa in the foreground, Hiawatha climbing the tree; fortunately both just reach the road verge now, because you don't walk into places like that in summer. The second photo is an old country churchyard, which I like for the horse-trough in the foreground.
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Yes, 'Turner's Crimson' leaves are much more pointed and multiflora like. I found my 'Turner's Crimson' in a derelict mill along with what I believed to be 'Paul Ricault' but it now appears to be 'Paul Perras'. I know you aren't having anymore roses but 'Turner's Crimson' is such a historically important rose, and pretty as well.
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I am not sure if this will help - the photo might be too small. I have included some ‘Mlle Cecile Brunner’ buds to help discern the ‘Dorothy Perkins’ pink colour.
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Maybe not! It makes Turner's Crimson's leaves look rounded. Thank you anyway.
I'm collecting cuttings of ramblers to try to make sure one nursery has a full house as far as those in SA go. Very few nurseries selling heritage roses are left in Aus now. I need to make sure I get them right.
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Here is a picture of a foundling rose that was later identified as 'Turner's Crimson', it shows the slight puckering of the leaves (Bullate?) quite well.
http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=21.319991
Ed. The member Palustris has many good pictures of these types of ramblers including 'Excelsa'.
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Andrew, that plant can't be 'Turner's Crimson Rambler'. Look at the pedicels: they should be covered with tiny hairs. I can't believe I don't have any good photos of it. Next year I'll take some good photos.
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Oh! That's interesting. I wonder what this rose could be!? The plant I took my cuttings off would have been planted around 70 years ago and is grown in other gardens in the village too.
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#11 of 13 posted
yesterday by
 Palustris
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I'm not certain, but the color looks about right for TCR.
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'Excelsa' and 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' are quite distinct once you have had the opportunity to see them both in full flower. TCR has much more maroon flowers than 'Excelsa' whose flowers are red fading to a dull pink. However, the absolutely easiest method it to look at the pedicels. On TCR they are absolutely covered with a profusion of tiny hairs.
This can be easily seen in Patricia's photo: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.187524
It can also be seen in the picture from the book: Rosenbuch für Gartenliebhaber by J. Hoffmann, Berlin
Once the plants are out of flower, identifying them may be more difficult.
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I think I have (access to) both, flowering at present on roadsides. On the left, near the restored bootmaker's shop from 1904 at Mylor, is what I think is Turner's Crimson Rambler, based on what I'm told about the pedicels. It grows in shade for at least half of the day, and has quite a bit of mildew. Some petals develop an ugly mauve tinge as it fades. On the right is the one about 5km away, at Bradbury, which I think is Excelsa, growing in full sun. The watsonia, and bracken and blackberry in a previous photo, are declared weeds.
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I doubting whether my 'Excelsa' is correct now as well.
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the flower is 7-8cm in size, with round petals forming nicely in good order(like Gold Celebration), the color is apricot.
I think the flower endures better than most Austins, it lasts on stem around 5 days. but the color does fade.
the shrub is small in size , and most flowers face to the ground , with makes you hard to appreciate the flowers.
It likes to flower, like most austin shrub roses.
the fragrance is only mild, with tea scent. As I am a fragrance lover, i won't keep it(send it to my friends)
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In the hot CA sun, Pat faded to a most unattractive pink color. Yuck. Weak necks and small shrub as you say and constant bloom, its' one virtue, IMO. I discarded mine after the first season because I couldn't stand looking at the faded pink.
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#2 of 3 posted
yesterday by
jeffbee
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strange that i haven't seen the pink tone in Pat yet,it's just pale apricot(not orange), maybe due to the cold here(it's winter now, about 5 degree Celsius). IMO, Austin company is really boasting the fragrance of some of its productions.
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Where I lived in CA it got very hot and dry in summer and many roses faded in the bright sun. PA might show better color in a more temperate climate.
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I really tried to like this rose, but it never worked out. It has a lot of the flaws of the early 1900s orange polyanthas, which is that the plant is consistently in mildew, and the color fades rapidly to a really trashy shade of off-pink. For landscape roses, Fire Meidiland is an orange hint of scarlet, is also smaller scale, and it does not mildew here. Flower Carpet Coral is also okay, but it is single and very airy, which doesn't always give the full effect in landscape roses.
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#1 of 2 posted
today by
goncmg
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Its a cold, windy night here in Charleston and I'm poring over roses on HMF. I love your commentary, Michael. I lol for real with the "trashy pink" mentioned here.
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hah, thanks.
I caught an error, too. I meant Ruby Meidiland :D I still have Ruby M., too, although the HMF pics dont do it justice.
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When I do a Search/Lookup on 'William R. Smith,' I get the error message "We did not find any plants matching your search name." However, when I Googled the rose name, it led me to the correct page at helpmefind! That page is http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.6582, but you can't access it from within helpmefind.
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The search engine doesn't cope well with punctuation. William R Smith finds it.
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