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Initial post 1 MAR by HubertG
A speculative question about Alexander Hill Gray:-
Reading the earliest descriptions for this rose, two things strike me as being discordant to the rose I've grown as AHG. Firstly the yellow colour is described as deepening as the flower develops (mine always fades) and secondly the tea fragrance is described as strong (mine is tea but very weak).
This rose because of it's fine form was understandably marketed as Yellow Maman Cochet. However another rose Mme Derepas-Matrat, introduced by Buatois in 1897 was also called Yellow Maman Cochet. This rose was thornless or nearly so, with little scent and sometimes flushed pink.
The rose I grow in Australia as AHG is nearly thornless with conspicuously smooth stems, a feature that is missing on the early descriptions of AHG.
I'm wondering if the rose grown in Australia as Alexander Hill Gray is really Mme Derepas-Matrat and has been mixed up due to both being called Yellow Maman Cochet.
Does anyone know the provenance of this rose as grown in Australia? Does anyone find the fragrance of AHG strong?
Reply #1 of 3 posted 1 MAR by Patricia Routley
Thornlessness is mentioned in the 2008 reference and I have added that characteristic to 'Alexander Hill Gray'. Thanks.
Do you have the book Tea Roses. Old Roses for Warm Gardens? Provenance of 'Alexander Hill Gray' is also mentioned on p79.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 1 MAR by HubertG
I googled it and found the reference to it being rediscovered. Thanks. It just seemed odd that when the early catalogues extol and almost exaggerate every virtue of a new rose that the thornless nature wasn't included in early descriptions, and that the other 'Yellow Cochet' was described as thornless. I thought that there might have been a mix up very early on in the 20th century.
My AHG sets hips by the way. Not many, but it does set hips.

The fragrance could never be described as strong though.
Reply #3 of 3 posted today by HubertG
Just an additional note:
Both 'Alex Hill Gray' and 'Yellow Maman Cochet' are offered and described as separate rose varieties in the 1918 'Dingee Guide to Rose Culture' catalogue.

No reference to the 1897 Buatois rose is made as an alternative name for Yellow Maman Cochet, whereas 'Etoile de France' is given as the synonym for 'Crimson Maman Cochet', so it isn't clear whether the variety they offer as 'Yellow Maman Cochet' is really Mme Derepas-Metrat.
'Souvenir de Pierre Notting, the other rose sometimes called the Yellow Maman Cochet, is also listed separately in the Dingee guide, so that isn't their Yellow Cochet either.
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Initial post yesterday by HubertG
Does anyone have doubts about the Souvenir de Therese Levet (sold in Australia) as being the authentic item?
I grew it for a few years and always wondered if it was correct:

- it doesn't set hips. I found one hip once with no seeds. It always seemed strange that it could be the seed parent of General Gallieni when it seemed infertile.
- the base of the petals showed white and never yellow like in some descriptions.
- the red colour of General Gallieni would have derived from SdTL, but they are quite different reds, SdTL was rather pinky crimson.
- there were some characteristics of it that suggested some Hybrid Tea breeding - it never seemed a classic Tea to me.
- It was one of the more popular teas that survived into the 20thC, eg. in the Hazlewood nurseries, and I always wondered what would have been so appealing about the SdTL that I grew. It was a nice enough rose, but I couldn't see why it would have been so much more enduring than many other teas that disappeared by then.

Just bouncing this idea around.
Reply #1 of 3 posted yesterday by Margaret Furness
I think a lot of people consider it closer to HT than Tea (I hoicked mine), but it stays listed as Tea because there are so few deeper red ones now on the market.
Reply #2 of 3 posted today by HubertG
The earliest photographs here by Luanne Wilson and Casa de Rosas look like a different variety to what SdTL is in Australia.
Reply #3 of 3 posted today by Margaret Furness
The buds would pass for the same. Maybe it's wrong all round the world.
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Initial post today by 16-Eichen-Rosenschätze
Once established it repeats reliably.
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Initial post today by rozica
I would be very happy if you could help me with identifying this rose. I'm from Croatia (country in Central and South-east Europe, on the Adriatic Sea), so it's pretty worm at summer. This rose grows in a bush shape, the bush is around 1.5 meters high and wide and her flowers have strong and beautiful smell. The rose bush is probably around 100 years old, and she starts blossoming in May. It does bloom only for about a month, it does have a lot of flowers, but they don't last too long. It looses leaves in winter.

Here are some images which I posted in another forum, but unfortunately they werent able to help me. They said it's probably an Old Garden Rose.

Thank you in advance :)
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