HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
|
|
'Alexander Hill Gray' rose Reviews & Comments
-
-
Wikitree says Alexander Hill Gray was bred by AHG, released by Dickson. Are there any references for this? (Alister Stella Gray was bred by AHG and released by Paul).
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#1 of 5 posted
12 MAY 21 by
jedmar
Haven't seen any. In 1909, Alister Stella Gray would have been 72 years old. It is improbable that he named a rose after himself. More so, that Alex Dickson dedicated a rose to the rosarian well-known at the time.
Addition: In the "Stonyhurst Association Newsletter" of February 2017 it is mentioned that he bred a tea rose named after himself. Possibly a mixup with 'Alister Stella Gray', but cannot confirm without access to his autobiography "Wanderings of a Stonyhurst Boy in Many Lands" (1925).
|
REPLY
|
Thank you. Addition: abebooks lists it as available in the UK for 60 pounds (plus postage). I think I'll continue to wonder.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#3 of 5 posted
12 MAY 21 by
jedmar
Here is a list of all libraries that have it. None near me.
www.worldcat.org/title/sixty-years-ago-wanderings-of-a-stonyhurst-boy-in-many-lands-being-the-relation-of-some-of-the-travels-and-adventures-of-alexander-hill-gray/oclc/11602239
|
REPLY
|
-
-
Available from - Peter Beales Attleborough, Norfolk
|
REPLY
|
-
-
The description page for 'Alexander Hill Gray' says "sets no hips". I've always found mine sets hips (which hold seeds) fairly readily. I find this a bit puzzling.
|
REPLY
|
And this is exactly why comments like yours are so useful and what makes HMF so special. At some point in time, a permanent reference indicated otherwise and now we know that reference is in question based on your experience.
We need more people take the time to share their experience - Thanks !
|
REPLY
|
I certainly wouldn't discount that reference Admin. What we need is more of them to say if this rose does, or does not set hips. The fact that we show just one 1922 descendant indicates that it does not, and therefore there is a possibility that HubertG has received a rose other than 'Alexander Hill Gray'. Every reference is valuable.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#3 of 21 posted
21 JUN 18 by
HubertG
Thanks HMF Admin, This site is a veritable commonwealth of rose knowledge; the more contributions the better.
Patricia, I have two bushes of AHG ordered from different nurseries maybe 5 years apart. They are both the same and both do set hips. They do look the same as other AHGs in Australia posted here (I've posted a few photos of mine too) This is a double rose but not what I'd call a full one and so they have normal looking reproductive parts and, if insects can get in, I can't see any reason (barring an odd ploidy) why it shouldn't set hips. That's why I thought the no hips reference was unusual. By the time AHG was introduced Teas were waning in popularity, so that is probably the likeliest reason it wasn't used much in breeding, in my opinion.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#4 of 21 posted
21 JUN 18 by
HubertG
There are in fact a couple of hips on Margaret Furness' photo here:
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.304447
|
REPLY
|
That is interesting HubertG. They are hard to see, but I do see them. I suspect Margaret didn't note them as she has said in her more recent photo 315211 that her plant didn't set hips. Unfortunately 'Alexander Hill Gray' never came my way, so I have no first-hand experience. How else can I help here?
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#6 of 21 posted
21 JUN 18 by
HubertG
Best to wait for more comments on this topic, I'd say.
|
REPLY
|
Maybe it varies with how the weather has been. There's nothing on mine now that I would call a hip. It doesn't flower much in a dry summer.
|
REPLY
|
Do your 'Alexander Hill Gray' plants have prickles HubertG?
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#9 of 21 posted
21 JUN 18 by
HubertG
No, it's virtually thornless. I took some photos this morning of a few hips on one of my AHGs, which I'll post later.
Its thornlessness was the reason I had previously questioned whether it might have in fact been Mme Derepas-Metrat, one of the other "Yellow Cochets", because that was nearly thornless according to references, and thornlessness is a rarity in early roses.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#10 of 21 posted
22 JUN 18 by
HubertG
There were five hips on one of my plants this morning. I didn't check the other plant. The split hip is one I collected about April, showing the seeds. I do think the weather conditions play a part; AHG does tend to ball a bit, so if it doesn't open, it won't become fertilised.
|
REPLY
|
HubertG, I have added a few more references. I have more but it is late and I don't think any more are relevant. Take a look at the 1939 reference. I suspect there may be different versions of 'Alexander Hill Gray' in Australia as the 1998 reference says this rose fades. Most other references says it deepens.
|
REPLY
|
The plant at Renmark derived from the one at Bishop's Lodge, via John Nieuwesteeg. Mine has fallen off my list of provenances, but it's likely it was a spare from when I grew the one for Renmark from cuttings (which is partly why I have too many roses).
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#13 of 21 posted
24 JUN 18 by
HubertG
Patricia, lots of good new references! The most puzzling aspect for me is not so much the hips or whether the colour fades or deepens but the fragrance which is nearly always described as strong. Sangerhausen gives AHG an 8/10 for fragrance, which is the same they give Marechal Niel, and they also only give Mrs Foley Hobbs (which I find has a stronger fragrance than AHG) a 5/10. I'd only rate AHG about a 3/10 for fragrance. I know fragrance is very subjective, but I think I have a good nose.If the fragrance description in old references varied a lot, or if there were lots of omissions on the fragrance description, I could understand, but it is fairly consistently rated as strong.
Margaret, did Bishop's Lodge have a known specimen of AHG, or was it a found bush that was later given AHG as it's identity? Maybe there are two versions of AHG in Australia. Maybe Mme Derepas-Metrat is one of them, after all they were both "Yellow Cochets". Does your Bishop's lodge AHG with the needle-like thorns have a good fragrance?
Also the 1925 Darlington (English) reference is puzzling because it describes a plant "up to 8-ft, or a little more under glass". My two bushes are barely waist height.
|
REPLY
|
I think the Bishop's Lodge plant would have been identified by John N and David Ruston. As far as I know, but am willing to be corrected, none of the BL plants were labelled. The plant from Melbourne General Cemetery was identified by Roy Rumsey, who had grown it years earlier. I'll check fragrance when it flowers again, but I'm not a good judge. My plant is small too so far.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#15 of 21 posted
24 JUN 18 by
HubertG
I just found and uploaded a 1919 catalogue photo of a whole bunch of 'Alexander Hill Gray' (photo Id:319773). There are thorns visible on the stems and although they don't seem "needle-like" because they are fairly wide, they are quite straight. If it is to be believed, it is also interesting in that the flower form seems to vary considerably from what I grow as AHG. I'd be interested in seeing more of Margaret Furness' prickled Bishop's Lodge AHG later on when it's in flower to compare.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#16 of 21 posted
25 JUN 18 by
HubertG
From "The Garden", Oct 10, 1908 page 493:
"SOME NEW ROSES OF 1908. ...there are other Roses not yet distributed which have obtained a gold medal. To refer to them would be going beyond the scope of these notes; but an exception, however, must be made in favour of a yellow Tea named A. Hill Gray. This Rose promises to be a favourite for the garden and suitable for exhibition. The growth is branching but somewhat slender, free-flowering habit, blooms fairly full, colour yellow, shaded white. Joseph H. Pemberton"
And from "The Garden", Sep 26, 1908, page 465
"NEW SEEDLING ROSES AT THE AUTUMN SHOW.
A. Hill Gray. - A Tea raised by Messrs. Alexander Dickson and Sons of Newtownards, Ireland. A beautiful Rose of excellent shape, well staged on a tall stand. Delightful pale yellow colouring, fragrant and a good grower; undoubtedly the finest Rose staged in the class. The award of a gold medal was practically unanimous. Good Teas are scarce and are very welcome, especially when up to exhibition standards. Herbert E. Molyneux"
|
REPLY
|
Thanks HubertG. References added.
|
REPLY
|
I've just added a few more references to Alexander Hill Gray, including a couple (1954 and 1938) that refer to thornless stems.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#19 of 21 posted
25 JUN 18 by
HubertG
Billy, they're very interesting because they seem to be the only early references to the lack of thorns, and they are local too. If both AHG and Mme Derepas-Metrat were virtually thornless, I wonder if AHG was bred from the other. It makes sense that if you had a rose praised as a yellow Cochet in MmeDM, to use it to try to raise something better. And if that were the case, AHG's tendency to sometimes blush pink could be inherited from MmeDM's pollen parent Marie van Houtte. Pure speculation of course.
|
REPLY
|
When there is an equivalent of Trove in other countries, we'll probably find more references like this. Margaret's comment is sadly true. Many of the people responsible for those early descriptions probably only ever handled a bloom on a stem that had been de-thorned by the gardener.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#21 of 21 posted
26 JAN 19 by
HubertG
Just regarding 'Alexander Hill Gray' setting hips - I've mentioned mine does fairly readily, and just in the last three days I've had four seedlings germinate, all from the same hip of 'Alexander Hill Gray' x 'Lorraine Lee'. This shows it can produce viable seed as well.
|
REPLY
|
-
-
A speculative question about Alexander Hill Gray:- Reading the earliest descriptions for this rose, two things strike me as being discordant to the rose I've grown as AHG. Firstly the yellow colour is described as deepening as the flower develops (mine always fades) and secondly the tea fragrance is described as strong (mine is tea but very weak). This rose because of it's fine form was understandably marketed as Yellow Maman Cochet. However another rose Mme Derepas-Matrat, introduced by Buatois in 1897 was also called Yellow Maman Cochet. This rose was thornless or nearly so, with little scent and sometimes flushed pink. The rose I grow in Australia as AHG is nearly thornless with conspicuously smooth stems, a feature that is missing on the early descriptions of AHG. I'm wondering if the rose grown in Australia as Alexander Hill Gray is really Mme Derepas-Matrat and has been mixed up due to both being called Yellow Maman Cochet. Does anyone know the provenance of this rose as grown in Australia? Does anyone find the fragrance of AHG strong?
|
REPLY
|
Thornlessness is mentioned in the 2008 reference and I have added that characteristic to 'Alexander Hill Gray'. Thanks. Do you have the book Tea Roses. Old Roses for Warm Gardens? Provenance of 'Alexander Hill Gray' is also mentioned on p79.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#2 of 9 posted
1 MAR 18 by
HubertG
I googled it and found the reference to it being rediscovered. Thanks. It just seemed odd that when the early catalogues extol and almost exaggerate every virtue of a new rose that the thornless nature wasn't included in early descriptions, and that the other 'Yellow Cochet' was described as thornless. I thought that there might have been a mix up very early on in the 20th century. My AHG sets hips by the way. Not many, but it does set hips.
The fragrance could never be described as strong though.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#3 of 9 posted
23 MAR 18 by
HubertG
Just an additional note: Both 'Alex Hill Gray' and 'Yellow Maman Cochet' are offered and described as separate rose varieties in the 1918 'Dingee Guide to Rose Culture' catalogue.
No reference to the 1897 Buatois rose is made as an alternative name for Yellow Maman Cochet, whereas 'Etoile de France' is given as the synonym for 'Crimson Maman Cochet', so it isn't clear whether the variety they offer as 'Yellow Maman Cochet' is really Mme Derepas-Metrat. 'Souvenir de Pierre Notting, the other rose sometimes called the Yellow Maman Cochet, is also listed separately in the Dingee guide, so that isn't their Yellow Cochet either.
|
REPLY
|
The Dingee catalogue has given you some fascinating research. One comment though: the early English-speaking rose-writers rarely commented on whether a rose had thorns - because they had gardeners to do the hands-on work. For the writers, thorns weren't important, compared to the rose's showbench potential.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#5 of 9 posted
24 MAR 18 by
HubertG
I found in the "New Floral Guide, Autumn, 1913" from Conard & Jones Co. a listing for "Yellow Maman Cochet" which gives its original name as "Mlle Helena Gambier". Incidentally, it is listed under winter blooming roses. It isn't clear from the Dingee catalogue if their Yellow MC is this same French rose, but it certainly does show that plenty of Yellow Maman Cochets sent out in America at that time weren't Alexander Hill Gray.
I'll enter the description of Conard's YMC under Mlle Helene Cambier.
Margaret, that's true about the thorns. Sometimes if a rose is exceptionally thorny or nearly thornless you hear about it.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#6 of 9 posted
25 MAR 18 by
HubertG
"ALEXANDER HILL GRAY (Tea). - After a thorough trial both indoors under glass and in the open ground, we are pleased to offer this lovely yellow Rose to our customers as one of the very best of its class and color. The color, which is a deep lemon-yellow deepening as the flower expands, does not fade in the open ground, as is usual with such. Buds and blooms of perfect formation and of great substance, and produced in the greatest abundance throughout the entire season. Strong grower and hardy everywhere. This Rose awarded Gold Medal by the National Rose Society."
This description is from the "Dingee Guide to Rose Culture" 1918, page 12. AHG is offered with "National Emblem" (HT) and "Mrs. George Shawyer (which they list as a Tea) in a package deal called "The National Collection" of 'New Hardy Everblooming Roses'.
|
REPLY
|
Thanks HubertG. Reference added. A quick skim through the references shows that some say 'Alexander Hill Gray' fades (1926, 1998), and some say it deepens (1912, 1914, 1918, 1940, 1997). I suspect the latter is more likely.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#8 of 9 posted
25 MAR 18 by
HubertG
You're welcome. I imagine quite a few different yellow roses would have been marketed under the name of Yellow Maman Cochet, particularly in the USA.
|
REPLY
|
Yes - ‘Maman Cochet’ was considered such a landmark in the development of Tea roses - approaching the highest perfection of rose form - and breeders aspired to duplicate its qualities in other colours – particularly the elusive definite yellow - or to promote roses by likening them to ‘Maman Cochet’. So we see a number of roses with the synonym ‘Yellow Maman Cochet’. ‘Alexander Hill Gray’, ‘Lady Plymouth’, ‘Souvenir de Pierre Notting’, ‘Mme Derepas Metral’ and ‘Souvenir de Jeanne Cabaud’ have all been named 'Yellow Maman Cochet' at some time and there may be more.
On the subject of fading and deepening colours, it all depends on the light (and latitude). If you cut them in the bud and allow them to open indoors, a much deeper colour develops. If left to open on the bush in full sun, the blooms will usually pale but the blazing Australian sun and the kinder sun of English summers and those of other higher latitudes will affect colours differently . Most Tea roses are very responsive to light and temperature and vary according to conditions. The pot hunters covered yellow buds with brown paper bags, cut-off brown beer bottles or other ingenious shading devices to get the deepest possible shade of yellow in their prize-winning blooms.
|
REPLY
|
|
|