HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
DescriptionPhotosLineageAwardsReferencesMember RatingsMember CommentsMember JournalsCuttingsGardensBuy From 
'White China' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 104-120
most recent 6 AUG 17 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 6 AUG 17 by CybeRose
Annalen der Blumisterei, 5: 216-217 (1829)
Rosa Thea alba
Die weiße Theerose

Blühte in einem prachtvollen Eremplar in des reichen Pflanzensammlung des hrn. Magistratsrathes Sröttner zu Nürnberg im Glashause im Mai.

Beschreibung

Das Laub ist sehr lebhast grün, das mittelste der 5 Blätter das längste, die bieden untersten die leinsten, der Blattstiel etwas röthlich. Die Rose halt 4 Zoll im Durchmesser, und it 1 1/2 Zoll hoch, ganz gefüllt, die schmälern Blätter, welche innen stehen, ausrecht, eng aneingnder, die außern gewöldt, 1 1/2 Zoll hoch, 1 3/4 Zoll breit, weiß, mit geringerm röthlichen Schimmer, als die innern. Ist die Blume vollfommen ausgeblüht, dann werden alle Blätter weißlich. Ie hat, wie die vorige, den lieblichen Theegeruch.

Kultur.
Die der bekannten Theerose.

[The foliage is very bright green, the middle of the 5 leaves the longest, the lowest the lesser, the petiole somewhat reddish. The rose is 4 inches in diameter, and it is 1 1/2 inches high, quite full, the narrow leaves that stand inside, right, close-fitting, the outside arched, 1 1/2 inches high, 1 3/4 inches wide white, with a less reddish glow than the inner ones. If the flower is full blown, then all the leaves turn whitish. It has, like the previous, the lovely tea-smell.]
REPLY
Discussion id : 76-342
most recent 4 NOV 15 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 29 JAN 14 by CybeRose
There must have been another White China besides the Tea(s). Donald Beaton (Cottage Gardener 7(163): 97-99 (Nov 19, 1851)) discussed the "Old White China" apart from the Tea-scented roses.

China Roses:
"For filling up the bottom of a rose-wall, Gloire de Rosamene is the best of all Roses; and for making bouquets of Roses in bud from September to Christmas the Rosamene and Old White China are the best; "

Tea-scented China Roses:
"I never saw a real white Tea-Rose yet; Niphetos and Devoniensis were once called white, but they are far from it; light buffs, blushes, and yellows, are their prevailing colours."

Perhaps this is the White China illustrated by Andrews in his "Monograph".

"Our drawing was made from plants in the Nursery of Mr. Knight, who first raised them in the year 1816 by importations received from a Bengal vessel, and called them Rosa Bengalensis rubra et alba. They are, however, only seminal varieties from the Common China Rose. Their period of inflorescence is mostly during the summer and autumnal months;"

The one on the left of the picture has a pink bud and white blossom.
REPLY
Reply #1 of 9 posted 30 JAN 14 by jedmar
Very interesting reference to yet-unknown early imports from China. How would you then interpret the text by Andrews on Rosa indica alba? One imported 1816 by Knight as Rosa bengalensis alba, one raised 1825 from seeds of R. lucida, then a further double variety by Rollinson?
REPLY
Reply #2 of 9 posted 30 JAN 14 by CybeRose
Jedmar,

The Rosa indica alba was stated to be a seedling of R. lucida (bracteata).

Rollinson's Odorata seedling was reported to be similar, but double-flowered.

Perhaps these were reciprocal crosses of Odorata and Bracteata -- forerunners of 'Alba Odorata'.

Karl
REPLY
Reply #3 of 9 posted 30 JAN 14 by CybeRose
Hortus Addlestonensis (1829)
Plants cultivated and sold by John Cree (county of Surrey)

p. 32
ROSA
14 bracteata C.E.P. Macartney May, Oct. 15 white
15 b. plene C.E.P double ditto 15 ditto

p. 33
80 Bengalensis alba 16 blush

p. 34
99 odorata P. sw scented China March, Oct. 10 blush B.R. 804
100 b. flavescens P. yellow ditto ditto 6 pale yellow

A double-flowered Macartney had turned up (Rollinson's?); Bengalensis alba is available; no white-flowered Odorata listed.
REPLY
Reply #4 of 9 posted 30 JAN 14 by CybeRose
Hortus Duroverni (1831)
William Masters

p. 62
251 indica - blush China
252 semperflorens - everblowing

p. 63
Garden Varieties from the two latter Species.
253 White China
254 Yellow China
255 Animating
256 Bichonii
257 Indica minor
258 Purpurea
259 Brooke's Climbing
260 Odoratissima
261 Longifolia
262 Bengalensis rubra
263 Bengalensis alba
264 Semperflorens major
265 Barclayana
266 Sadi
267 Subalba
268 Thisbe
260 Armata
270 Florida
271 Roxburghii
272 Bengal formidable
273 Lawrenciana
274 Odorata
275 Duchess de Berri
276 Indica major
277 Purpurea rubra
278 Soulangiana
279 Crimson odorata

307 bracteata - Lord Macartney's - China
308 plena - double - gardens

Here we see 253 White China separate from 267 Subalba, and that the double Macartney was a garden variety rather than a direct importation.
REPLY
Reply #5 of 9 posted 30 JAN 14 by CybeRose
And some more references:

Sweet's Hortus Britannicus (1839)
p. 216
subalba - whitish China (under indica)
flavescens - yellow China (under odorata)
(No other white varieties mentioned)

American Flower-garden Directory (1832)
Hibbert & Buist (Philadelphia, Pa.)
p. 184
No. 11. Rosa odorata alba, or White-tea, is not so odorous as No. 8 [Rosa odorata, or Tea-rose], but blooms more profusely, and grows more freely. The beautiful and neat appearance of the buds, when half expanded, is not surpassed; and when full blown, they are a fine delicate white. The bush in that state is showy, much admired, and scarce; we are not positive of its being hardy.
No. 12. Rosa Bengal, or Yellow-tea, is a very free flowerer, the shape of the flower is more like No. 8. than any of the others; the petals are large and gracefully set, having a peculiar scent or flavour, and is of a sulphur colour. We cannot say as to its being hardy, but suppose it as much so as No. 8.
p. 186
No. 20. Rosa Indica alba pleno, or white China, is a rose of free growth, abundant in flower, and pure white, which renders it very desirable; is larger than No. 1 [Rosa indica, common China or daily], is greatly admired, and rare; requires rich light soil.
REPLY
Reply #6 of 9 posted 30 JAN 14 by CybeRose
Catalogue of kitchen garden, flower, tree and grass seeds, etc (1843)
By George C. THORBURN (New York)
p. 49
White China, or daily rose - French white, very constant bloomer
'Bourbon' is the only "white" Tea Scented listed.


Flora Odorata (1843)
Frederick Thompson Mott (Great Britain)
p. 93
"The White China Rose, R. indica, is much esteemed for its elegant and delicate flowers, and also for its delightful fragrance. It is rather tender, requiring protection during the Winter, when planted in the open air; but it is generally grown as a pot plant, for which it is well adapted. It may be propagated by cuttings taken off during the Summer, and planted under a hand-glass in light rich soil, or they will root more quickly if planted in pots on a little heat."

[This is a little ambiguous because of the fragrance. However, it was not a seedling of Old Blush, as Andrews assumed.]

Proceedings of the Annual Meeting, NY State Agric. Soc. vol. 6 - 1846 (1847)
p. 86-87
"By Elwanger and Barry, of the Mount Hope Nurseries, Rochester, twenty-nine varieties of Roses ... Vanilla scented, White China and Madonna."

The Illustrated London News, Volume 2 (July 1, 1843)
Grand Floral Fete at Glazenwood
p. 12
"... a perfectly unique specimen of the double yellow China or magnolia rose; ... and a beautiful mixture of the dark red and white China roses;"

The Rose Manual (1844)
Robert Buist
p. 112-113
"Flavescens, or Yellow Tea, pale straw colour, extremely large bold petals; it is very splendid when half expanded, but when full blown is loose and not fully double; it bears an abundance of seed, but we have never produced a good rose from it. This plant was introduced into England from China, by Mr. Parks, about the year 1824. In fresh sandy rich loamy soil it grows very strong, and flowers profusely, but does not thrive in heavy soils. My late partner, Mr. Hibbert, introduced this rose and the White China into this country in 1828, and the first plants that were sold of them was in 1830; they are now found in thousands over every part of the United States."

[The White China mentioned by Buist was called "Sarmeteuse" [sic] elsewhere in the book. It was most likely a Noisette-type.]

The Cottage Gardener 4: 392-394 (Sept. 26, 1850)
Donald Beaton
"This White China rose had the good fortune to come into the world before they found out the way to give roses such hard names, and, like old gardeners, very few people care anything about it; in short, I do not know if the nurserymen grow it at all, it is so old; but this I do know, that they grow no China rose half so useful. It is in full flower every day from May to December, and late in the season it is the only white rose one can pick to make a variety in the glasses. In November the buds of it are as hard as acorns, and as pointed as a bayonet, and if it is wet weather, the out side row of petals look much faded, and nine persons out of ten would pass it as gone; but strip off the faded covering and you have the nicest white rose bud you ever saw, and it will keep ten days fresh in a dry warm room. All the autumn roses for house decoration ought to be cut before the buds are more than half blown; they will keep all the longer, and look as well if not better than if they were quite open; they escape the damp, and will open in the glasses."
REPLY
Reply #7 of 9 posted 30 JAN 14 by CybeRose
Page's Prodromus (1818)
Cultivated in the Southampton Botanic Gardens
William Bridgewater Page
p. 156
Greenhouse Plants -
Rosa.
berberifolia - Barberry-leaved
Laurenceana - Miss Laurence's
Sinica - Three-lvd: China
suaveolens - Tea-scented
Rosa subalba - Nearly White

Rosacearum Monographia vol. 1 (1823)
Leopold Trattinnick
p. 40
XI. Rosa Indica. 1. turbinata. 2. fragrans. 3. subalba

Catalogue of Plants, which are Sold by Conrad Loddiges and Sons, Nurserymen (1820)
p. 25
Rosa indica bichonia, centifolia, major, minor, purpurea, subalba
REPLY
Reply #8 of 9 posted 2 FEB 14 by CybeRose
I jumped the gun on "subalba". Redoute painted this one, said to have been raised from seed by Cels in 1804.
REPLY
Reply #9 of 9 posted 4 NOV 15 by scvirginia
I also think it likely that there was both an old white daily/monthly Bengal/China rose AND an old white Tea or tea-scented China. See the 1844 reference from Buist:
"Indica Alba is the very popular White Daily Rose first imported by this country in 1828, and now spread through every town, village, and garden of the Union. It is very much like the old White Tea Rose, though the petals are not so thick and waxy as that variety; the plant grows more freely and blooms more profusely..."

Both the "Old White" Tea and China roses that were popular seem to have been mostly white with some (occasional?) pink streaks to the outer petals; the Tea may have had a tendency to proliferate, but I only saw one mention of it, so that could have just been that particular clone.

Something that isn't clear from early references is whether some early breeders thought China roses were all of one species, and so seedlings should 'come true' and be identical to the parent? If that's so, there may have been any number of mostly-white Chinas called R. indica alba (and a number of pink Chinas and a number of red Chinas) all treated as if they were pretty much the same species, and sorted only by color?
Virginia
REPLY
Discussion id : 77-166
most recent 14 MAR 14 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 14 MAR 14 by CybeRose
E. P. Ventenat: Descritions des Plantes nouvelles ou peu connues du Jardin de J. M. Cels. Paris, 1800

Obs. 2. Le citoyen Cels cultive deux varietes de la Rosa diversifolia; l'une dont les fleurs sont presque doubles, et l'autre dont les petales sont blanchatres.

Obs. 2. Cels grows two varieties of Rosa diversifolia; one whose flowers are almost double, and one whose petals are whitish.

The latter is presumably 'Subalba'.
REPLY
Discussion id : 76-388
most recent 31 JAN 14 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 31 JAN 14 by CybeRose
Could this "Odorata alba" be the same plant that is currently distributed as 'Alba Odorata'?
REPLY
© 2024 HelpMeFind.com