|
'Rosa sancta Richard, not Andrews' rose Reviews & Comments
-
-
The 2007 reference suggests that this rose has actually disappeared from commerce and has been replaced by a form of polliniana. Is there any consensus on this topic? Are there any distinctive traits that would help tell the true rosa sancta richardii from a short version of polliniana? Edit: It seems that while polliniana is described as thornless (or almost), sancta is armed with thorns. I had hoped this might be a good criteria for differentiating the two, but alas, the pictures on both HMF entries show quite a lot of thorns on both. So now I am even more confused about this topic.
|
REPLY
|
-
-
I'm not much interested in Coptic monasteries, or monasteries of any persuasion for that matter, but have always loved ancient Cretan art (I tend more towards the decadent than the monastic).
Various people in Australia claim that this rose is the same rose that appears in a fresco from the palace at Knossos. Does anyone know more about this story?
|
REPLY
|
I have always found the 1967-59 reference of interest. If you can't find it on the internet, I can get you a copy.
|
REPLY
|
Ah. Well you could just quote the relevant bit as part of that reference text. Might be easier than arranging copies for various people. ;)
Something like "But owing to muddles over the colour and other points due to faulty reproductions and mis-statements, the later descriptions seem to have wandered considerably from the real facts..... which are that it is actually a Dainty Bess that was planted there by time travellers just to annoy the archaeologists."
Also found this: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4256886?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
The remaining pages aren't available unless logged in. I think I'll sign up for a free JSTOR account as it would be handy sometimes anyway (not just for roses).
|
REPLY
|
You may be interested in this. I still haven't signed up for JSTOR, but found an open access paper online. Excuse the horrendously long url.
http://www.academia.edu/1524323/_A_Re-Examination_Of_the_Floral_Fresco_from_the_Unexplored_Mansion_at_Knossos_Annual_of_the_British_School_at_Athens_92_1-24_1997_
Anyway, the upshot of it is that the fresco being discussed dates from around the same time as the Blue Bird Fresco, give or take a decade or two. The interesting part is the inclusion of "hybrid" plants that were created by the artist, using real plants as inspiration. In other words, some plants painted in some Minoan frescoes may never have actually existed in real life at all. Some of the others are highly stylised. It's quite conceivable that this would also apply to the Blue Bird Fresco, in which case the type of rose represented could be anyone's guess.
|
REPLY
|
Hmm, that's interesting. Long url's break HMF's CSS. There's a trick you can do with that to solve the problem. I could mention it to the admins if they're interested.
|
REPLY
|
-
-
The rose I have under this name from Mr. Šíp, Skaličany Bohemia, remind me a crossing between Rosa gallica L.(prickles, but more bent, big flowers, long stalk of hips, shape and position of sepals) and R. arvensis (partly hips, scent of flowers and climbing growth). I did not see R. phoenicia Boiss. yet to compare with. Did anybody genetic analysis?
|
REPLY
|
-
-
I am coming to a half-blind conclusion that the R. sancta Andrews was a small and repeating rose. Perhaps it should have a separate entry to that of R. sancta Richard (syn R. richardii)?
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#1 of 5 posted
9 SEP 10 by
jedmar
We can. According to the "The Genus Rosa", R. sancta Andrews was received as Rosa di San Giovanni from Italy. We have this name as a synonym of R. sempervirens. Maybe we should search the original description by Andrews first.
|
REPLY
|
Agree. I'll have a search for the Andrews
|
REPLY
|
You have already done it. Thanks Jedmar. Wonderful picture of R. sancta Andrews in that file.
I think that perhaps the synonym 'St. John's Rose' could now come out of Richards and into the Andrews file?
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#4 of 5 posted
10 SEP 10 by
jedmar
I haven't done so yet, as 'St. John's Rose' seems to be the exhibition name for R. sancta Richard in USA. Clearly this is wrong, but I do not want to confuse the poor exhibitors before the ARS makes the change. Cass?
I am afraid that Andrews might also have made a mistake with calling his Rosa sancta 'Rosa di San Giovanni' (St. John's Rose). This is the name for R. sempervirens in Italy, documented by a source from 1842.
|
REPLY
|
Thanks Jedmar. I have had a search of my literature and can find nothing more of interest.
|
REPLY
|
|