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'Excelsa' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 114-359
most recent 12 DEC 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 8 DEC 18 by Margaret Furness
I feel stupid asking this, as Excelsa is wichurana / luciae and Turner's Crimson is multiflora, but would someone who grows both please post comparison photos? Trying to ID a foundling. It has feathery stipules, but so does what I assume to be Hiawatha (luciae) from the same roadside patch.
Reply #1 of 18 posted 8 DEC 18 by Patricia Routley
Quit feeling stupid. You’re LOOKING at a rose and that is smart. It is well known that most multifloras have feathery stipules, but in my garden most wich’s ALSO have this trait. Just take a look at the parentage tree of ‘Excelsa’ and you will see where the feathery stipules come from.
I think basically, a multi has matt leaves and a wich has shiny. Ignore the word luciae - just concentrate on multi and wich. You might also like to read the 2008 reference for ‘Turner’s Crimson Rambler’ which may help you know what sort of bush it is.
Reply #2 of 18 posted 8 DEC 18 by Andrew from Dolton
Hello Margaret,
Here are leaves from 'Excelsa' and 'Turner's Crimson'. 'T C' has a more shrub like grow whilst 'E' shoots are quite brambly with its Wichurana blood. 'T C' often has two little leaflets by the stipule facing the opposite way to the other leaves. There is a good picture that Patricia has posted of 'T. C'. 'T. C' leaves are paler and generally not so shiny as 'E'. Both have featery stipules but 'T. C' are particularly bristly.
Regards Andrew.
Reply #3 of 18 posted 8 DEC 18 by Margaret Furness
Thanks Andrew. I have the impression from your photo that Excelsa's leaves are slightly rounded, compared to Turner's Crimson.
Ramblers are survivors here, reflecting their ability to root down (layer themselves). I'm adding a couple of photos of what I think is Excelsa, where it can't have been watered for decades. The first has Excelsa in the foreground, Hiawatha climbing the tree; fortunately both just reach the road verge now, because you don't walk into places like that in summer. The second photo is an old country churchyard, which I like for the horse-trough in the foreground.
Reply #4 of 18 posted 8 DEC 18 by Andrew from Dolton
Yes, 'Turner's Crimson' leaves are much more pointed and multiflora like. I found my 'Turner's Crimson' in a derelict mill along with what I believed to be 'Paul Ricault' but it now appears to be 'Paul Perras'. I know you aren't having anymore roses but 'Turner's Crimson' is such a historically important rose, and pretty as well.
Reply #5 of 18 posted 9 DEC 18 by Patricia Routley
I am not sure if this will help - the photo might be too small. I have included some ‘Mlle Cecile Brunner’ buds to help discern the ‘Dorothy Perkins’ pink colour.
Reply #6 of 18 posted 9 DEC 18 by Margaret Furness
Maybe not! It makes Turner's Crimson's leaves look rounded. Thank you anyway.
I'm collecting cuttings of ramblers to try to make sure one nursery has a full house as far as those in SA go. Very few nurseries selling heritage roses are left in Aus now. I need to make sure I get them right.
Reply #7 of 18 posted 9 DEC 18 by Andrew from Dolton
Here is a picture of a foundling rose that was later identified as 'Turner's Crimson', it shows the slight puckering of the leaves (Bullate?) quite well.

Ed. The member Palustris has many good pictures of these types of ramblers including 'Excelsa'.
Reply #9 of 18 posted 9 DEC 18 by Palustris
Andrew, that plant can't be 'Turner's Crimson Rambler'. Look at the pedicels: they should be covered with tiny hairs. I can't believe I don't have any good photos of it. Next year I'll take some good photos.
Reply #10 of 18 posted 9 DEC 18 by Andrew from Dolton
Oh! That's interesting. I wonder what this rose could be!? The plant I took my cuttings off would have been planted around 70 years ago and is grown in other gardens in the village too.
Reply #11 of 18 posted 9 DEC 18 by Palustris
I'm not certain, but the color looks about right for TCR.
Reply #8 of 18 posted 9 DEC 18 by Palustris
'Excelsa' and 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' are quite distinct once you have had the opportunity to see them both in full flower. TCR has much more maroon flowers than 'Excelsa' whose flowers are red fading to a dull pink. However, the absolutely easiest method it to look at the pedicels. On TCR they are absolutely covered with a profusion of tiny hairs.

This can be easily seen in Patricia's photo:

It can also be seen in the picture from the book: Rosenbuch für Gartenliebhaber by J. Hoffmann, Berlin

Once the plants are out of flower, identifying them may be more difficult.
Reply #12 of 18 posted 10 DEC 18 by Margaret Furness
I think I have (access to) both, flowering at present on roadsides. On the left, near the restored bootmaker's shop from 1904 at Mylor, is what I think is Turner's Crimson Rambler, based on what I'm told about the pedicels. It grows in shade for at least half of the day, and has quite a bit of mildew. Some petals develop an ugly mauve tinge as it fades. On the right is the one about 5km away, at Bradbury, which I think is Excelsa, growing in full sun. The watsonia, and bracken and blackberry in a previous photo, are declared weeds.
Reply #13 of 18 posted 10 DEC 18 by Andrew from Dolton
I doubting whether my 'Excelsa' is correct now as well.
Reply #14 of 18 posted 10 DEC 18 by Palustris
Margaret, please look at my photos of 'Excelsa' that show the pedicels, peduncles, and small stems:

I think that the mildewed rose in your photo could be 'Excelsa'. Notice that the pedicels of TCR are completely covered by the tiny hairs, but on 'Excelsa' they are much fewer and they sparsely populate the pedicels.
Reply #15 of 18 posted 10 DEC 18 by Margaret Furness
It's complicated when both are found roses, and I think Patricia's are too. I should check at a nursery (which is going out of business) has named plants and re-photograph them.
Reply #16 of 18 posted 10 DEC 18 by Patricia Routley
Yes you should. Take the book 'Tea Roses' and photograph an average coloured bloom on page 206.
Reply #17 of 18 posted 11 DEC 18 by Palustris
Well, I'm sorry I haven't taken any good photos of 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' showing the extraordinary pedicels. I know there are a few plants in town all bought from Michael Walsh about 100 years ago. One plant was recently cut to the ground by the homeowner, but I am certain there are layered plants near it that I need to rescue so I can have my own clone.
Reply #18 of 18 posted 12 DEC 18 by Margaret Furness
This is Excelsa as grown at Thomas for Roses nursery (sorry Patricia, I forgot to take the Tea book). Nearer pink than red. Admittedly they have what I think is the same rose as Paul's Scarlet, but it's not that.
Discussion id : 2-899
most recent 4 MAY 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 25 FEB 04 by Unregistered Guest
could you please tell me how to prepare this rose tree for winter ?
Reply #1 of 10 posted 25 FEB 04 by Unregistered Guest
In early July just after bloom finishes, completely cut allcanes that have had blooms down to the ground. Tie up the new shoots that have sprung from the ground. They will grow enormously and bear next years flowers. Do every year. You'll have to wait till next year now. Wear very long gloves and get help
Reply #2 of 10 posted 30 MAR 09 by Chris
don't do a thing. it grows wild around town here, it was the rose that was planted on railroad banks to keep folks off the tracks. it grows and grows when it stops, nobody knows. no one does anything for it. i suspect there are times when zealous people try to kill it by pruning it and it comes back anyway. no one winterizes or automatically prunes it and it is always smiling back the next year.
Reply #3 of 10 posted 5 APR 17 by Gdisaz10
This rose is very susceptible to Mildew! It's a disaster!
Reply #4 of 10 posted 5 APR 17 by Andrew from Dolton
I just dug-up a plant of 'Super Excelsa' and gave it to a neighbour, I found it rather too boring. I planted 'Cerise Bouquet' in its place.
Reply #5 of 10 posted 2 MAY 17 by Gdisaz10
How is Cerise?
Reply #6 of 10 posted 2 MAY 17 by Andrew from Dolton
It is still quite small but growing well. I grew it from a cutting I stole from a garden in a nearby town. I remember I saw it flowering in the summer, this strange half rambler half shrub, full of double pink flowers. Individual flowers not a mass of blooms smothering the whole plant like 'Dorothy Perkins'. I returned in the autumn to commit the crime. I don't think there will be flowers this year but it is making good growths for next season.
Reply #7 of 10 posted 4 MAY 17 by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Andrew: Thank you for the info. on nutrient deficiencies you sent to me. How do you root cuttings in your cool climate? What type of soil medium? How do you root in high-rain weather? Thanks for any info. I tried rooting indoor this past zone 5a winter, and only 3 rootings made it . perhaps my house is too cold (57 F or 14 C at night).
Reply #8 of 10 posted 4 MAY 17 by Andrew from Dolton
You are most welcome.
Ideally in October I take lengths of stem about 30cm long and bury them about two thirds their depth, Using a spade I make a V shaped hole that I refill with sharp grit. Generally they will have rooted by the spring but I leave them in situ until the following autumn when I pot them up and grow them on. If I had a green house then I could do the same in a deep pot. I get a reasonable success rate except Gallica which won't root this way at all. This is standard proceedure for any type of shrub or tree.
In general I get a zone 7 winter, In parts of Europe with colder winters I have seen people using my technique but they place a coffee jar over each cutting
Reply #9 of 10 posted 4 MAY 17 by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Thank you & much appreciated. Sharp grit is the same as our coarse sand/or paver's sand. I tried that one year but we had so much rain which eroded the sand ... will try putting a glass jar over to block out the rain.
Reply #10 of 10 posted 4 MAY 17 by Andrew from Dolton
It is courser than builders' sand, the sand you would use to make cement, but not so course as balast that you would use for concrete.
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