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'Cherub' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 129-873
most recent 3 DEC SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 30 NOV by petera
I am posting a comment on behalf of John Nieuwesteeg that he is convinced the rose in commerce as Cherub is actually Blush Rambler. He used to grow it and got his bud wood via Trevor Nottle.
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 3 DEC by Patricia Routley
It is good that he has the provenance and good to hear his thoughts.
These ‘Cherub’ contenders are difficult. I favour ‘Apple Blossom’ because of its 1936 reference which quoted “ruffled petals”. Here is what I grow as at Dec 3, 2021 and the provenance is Melville Nursery->. Del Bibby (at a 2004 HRiA cutting day and came as Cherub)->. Ros-O-SW.
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Discussion id : 30-184
most recent 8 OCT 14 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 6 SEP 08 by Patricia Routley
There are opinions that the 1923 Alister Clark rose 'Cherub' in commerce, is not the original rose.
This seems to be borne out by the class changing from the earlier wichuraiana to the later references to multiflora. My rose in Western Australia seems to closely resemble the ruffled petalled Burbank, 1932 'Apple Blossom'.
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Reply #1 of 5 posted 7 OCT 14 by Jane Z
Interestingly the earliest references I've found to Cherub are both from WA newspapers, the first being in 1920, (prior to its release), where the rose was described as a pink multiflora!
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Reply #2 of 5 posted 8 OCT 14 by Patricia Routley
Thanks Jane.
The 1920 Western Mail reference was possibly sourced from another Victorian newspaper, but it has enabled us to put the date of 'Cherub' back further to <1920.

As for the 1924 Daily News reference, many of the descriptions for the roses are very similar to those from the Hazlewood's 1924 catalogue. It is possible that the journalist was having a sleepy day and typed in the colour description for 'Cherub' as "crimson, overlaid scarlet" which was almost the same as the "crimson, shaded scarlet" entry for the rose listed above 'Cherub' - 'Captain Kilbee Stuart'.
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Reply #3 of 5 posted 8 OCT 14 by Jane Z
The 1920 item was a column, "A Woman's Melbourne Letter" written for the 'Western Mail'. The same story hasn't appeared in any of the mainstream Victorian papers.

I don't see how the date of introduction is affected, as I read it the story simply showed that the rose had been displayed & described as a multiflora prior to its commercial release.
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Reply #4 of 5 posted 8 OCT 14 by Patricia Routley
Thanks. "A Woman's Melbourne Letter" makes it clear.
Bred <1920.
Introduced 1923.
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Reply #5 of 5 posted 8 OCT 14 by Jane Z
yup that's wot i ment 2 LOL ...
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Discussion id : 64-804
most recent 12 SEP 12 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 4 JUN 12 by Simon Voorwinde
There is a 1930's comment saying 'Cherub' is thornless. The main listing says that the real 'Cherub' was lost after the 1950s so would I be correct to assume this description is of the real 'Cherub'? Is the rose now in commerce as 'Cherub' thorny? I have two small potted plants sourced from a friend near Hobart that are completely smooth. Her plant is an old very large plant but I am unsure of its origin. I checked the listing for 'Apple Blossom' and there is no reference to the thornlessness of it in the referecens section or the comments (though there is for 'Blush Rambler') and imagine it might be hard, though not impossible, to get thornlessness with a rugosa Mum.

If this variety is a seedling of 'Claire Jacquier'... where does the wichurana come in?
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Reply #1 of 7 posted 5 JUN 12 by Patricia Routley
Simon, I had a quick look yesterday at my climber (which came as 'Cherub') and the long canes are thornless, except for the top foot, where there were thorns. Sorry no time for a photo then.
You need to read the references - from the bottom up - to gain an insight into this rose. It is a difficult one.
Patricia
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Reply #2 of 7 posted 5 JUN 12 by Simon Voorwinde
Yep.. read them all.. a few times... still don't see the wich connection other than someone lumping it with that group... noted that in 1955 descriptions change from repeat flowering in autumn to once-flowering. I've not noted mine to rebloom down here but they are only small and in pots. Also around 1955 descriptions change from thornless to almost thornless. Mine did flower this season but I don't recall what the colour range was.
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Reply #3 of 7 posted 5 JUN 12 by Patricia Routley
Wich or multi?
There is the possibility (so, so slight) that Hazlewood didn’t know exactly what a multiflora was. In his 1926 catalogue he put into his Climbing multiflora class, ‘Mlle. Cecile Brunner Cl.’, ‘Orleans Rose Cl.’, ‘Moonlight’, ‘Mrs. F. W. Flight’, Prosperity’, ‘Tausendschon’, and ‘Veilchenblau’.

It could be that the 1934 Patrick Grant comment was just re-reading an old Hazlewood catalogue But Dr. A. S. Thomas in 1950 definitely would have know what was a multiflora and what was a wich and he says ‘Cherub’ repeated lightly in autumn. Or did he too copy from past publications?

The main point for ‘Cherub’ being a multiflora was the 1930 U.S. reference where the rose, submitted by Hazlewood, gained a Silver Medal in Portland as a Multiflora. (But why did Hazlewood keep the rose in his Wich class for another eight years.) I’ll guess and say that many things slipped past busy nurserymen.

Repeating or Once flowering
The 1938 ref lists Cherub with other “early Summer Climbers” such as ‘Lady Medallist’ and ‘Milkmaid’ and those two in my garden are mostly once flowering. I have uploaded a 1924 reference which says “It also flowers in autumn when although the flowers are not numerous, the colouring is superb”. I think that most once flowering roses could produce a few flowers in autumn in superb conditions and perhaps other authors took this reference too literally. Hazlewood in 1925 said it flowered in autumn.

Thorns or Thornless
My plant has a few thorns, but I would call it thornless (or almost).

Is the Australian rose in commerce ‘Cherub’ or ‘Apple Blossom’ or ‘Blush Rambler’?
The 1997 reference, p213 shows that Trevor Nottle and Susan Irvine found roses “purporting to be ‘Cherub”, But was it? Or was it Apple Blossom or Blush Rambler? They did not have the resource of HelpMefind in those early days to help them through the tangles, and even now, with HelpMeFind, the three roses seem very similar.
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Reply #4 of 7 posted 5 JUN 12 by Simon Voorwinde
Can I callous up some cuttings of the one I have here and send them to you? I think they need growing side-by-side.
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Reply #5 of 7 posted 6 JUN 12 by Patricia Routley
Sigh. I have three plants already Simon. However, send them over. I have one at the end of this garden behind the sick walnut/wisteria on the left - and I can put another behind the May bushes on the right. That would balance things up a bit and although they would be about 10 metres apart, I think that would be close enough to see any difference. You had better add a distinguishing "study name" to the package so that we know which plant we are talking about in years to come. .
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Reply #6 of 7 posted 11 SEP 12 by Simon Voorwinde
Patricia, I forgot to add the study name. It should have read "Huonville Cherub". I haven't spoken with the people from whom I received cuttings in a while but will do so soon to ask them where their clone came from.

This evening, whilst checking the seed bags, I noticed some of the OP 'Cherub' seeds have germinated. I'm hoping for some repeaters but won't get too excited just yet.
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Reply #7 of 7 posted 12 SEP 12 by Patricia Routley
Thanks. Noted "Huonville Cherub" in my records.
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Discussion id : 58-155
most recent 25 OCT 11 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 25 OCT 11 by Patricia Routley
A recently added 1930 reference calls 'Cherub' a multiflora. This prompts a tiny doubt that the rose was ever a wichuraiana. .
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