'Le Vésuve' rose reviews and comments

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'Le Vésuve' rose Reviews & Comments

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Discussion id : 114-924 most recent 8 AUG SHOW ALL

Initial post 15 JAN 19 by Les Racines du Vent

According to Dominique Massad, Le Vésuve in commerce is actually Rosabelle (Bruant, 1899).
See in Bulletin n°25 Automne 2018, Roses Anciennes en France:

"L'ensemble de ces caractères me conduit à privilégier le nom de 'Rosabelle' pour cette variété commercialisée sous la dénomination erronée de 'Le Vésuve'."

He says that Le Vésuve in commerce doesn't ressemble a typical Bengal rose, at least what a Bengal rose would have been at the time (1825), but its habit is more one of a tea.

Any idea, comment, or personnal experience on that matter would be much appreciated!

Reply #1 of 13 posted 16 JAN 19 by HMF supporting member

Margaret Furness

Reply #2 of 13 posted 16 JAN 19 by Les Racines du Vent

Very interesting! Massad says that Le Vésuve grows up to 3m50, therefore somehow is a climber.... In my climate (zone 5) it is too cold for it to grow well, let alone climb so I cannot have an opinion on this matter.	REPLY

Reply #3 of 13 posted 16 JAN 19 by HMF supporting member

Margaret Furness

I suppose that raises the question, of whether there are two roses currently being sold as Le Vesuve - one a climber, one not. I don't grow it myself but the two plants I've seen, at Renmark (climate zone 9b, this week in a heatwave to 47C) aren't what I'd call climbers.	REPLY

Reply #4 of 13 posted 17 JAN 19 by Les Racines du Vent

Reply #5 of 13 posted 18 JAN 19 by HMF supporting member

Margaret Furness

Reply #6 of 13 posted 7 AUG by HMF supporting member

billy teabag

I can well believe FDY is an ancestor of the rose sold as Le Vésuve which has a similar wiry growth habit and shape, sharpness and density of prickles seen on Fortune’s Double Yellow.

Photos of Rosabelle (Bruant, 1899) appear to be the same as those of Le Vésuve (Laffay, 1825) and Climbing Le Vésuve on HMF.

Does anyone know whether there is a plant of Rosabelle with an unbroken link to a reliably named old plant, or are we looking at photos of the same foundling with several suggested identities?

I have only seen the rose sold as Le Vésuve grown as a free-standing shrub, where it is either kept to a moderate-sized mound by very regular trimming, or allowed to form a much larger mound of long, prickly canes, interlocked by those vicious prickles. I’ve not seen it grown on a supporting structure to see how tall it grows as a climber.

I believe Dominique Massad's suggestion should be seriously considered.

Reply #7 of 13 posted 7 AUG by HMF supporting member

jedmar

I had been looking at 'Rosabelle' at Tête d'Or (originating from L'Haÿ) in the context that it is a another seedling of Bruant from FDY, beside the lost 'Fée Opale'. FO is a good contender for the false 'Park's Yellow'. PY in commerce matches well the description of FO. It is a vigorous once-blooming climber, with foliage very similar to that of FDY. However, it does not have the nasty spiny prickles of FDY. At the time, I could not come to a conclusion. We should also remember that 'Hermosa' in commerce also has very nasty spines.

Reply #8 of 13 posted 7 AUG by HMF supporting member

Margaret Furness

Intriguing discussion. One problem though; would a seedling of FDY repeat as much as the rose in commerce as Le Vesuve does? One of its seedling is described as having few prickles!	REPLY

Reply #10 of 13 posted 7 AUG by HMF supporting member

billy teabag

The early refs mention this - running the French text through a translator: eg "..... a truly remontant rose bush. This character is very remarkable, given that it comes from the non-everbearing Yellow Fortune Rose." (Journal of the National Horticultural Society of France,1903) Page 469.)

and, from Horticultural Review Magazine (1900) Page 7 - "Two new sarmentous roses. — M. G. Bruant, horticulturist in Poitiers, to whom we already owe great gains in Roses (Rose Madame Georges Bruant, Rosa calocarpa, etc.), has just obtained two remarkable new features. Both will be put on sale. They come from the exquisite yellow Fortune’s Double Yellow, fertilized by various varieties of teas.
One of these Roses has a pearly white background, a yellowish center, and flesh pink edges. She will be called Fée Opale.
The other, with flowers in bouquets, light pink with salmon reflections, will be called Rosabelle. It is remontant, while the first is not."

Reply #9 of 13 posted 7 AUG by HMF supporting member

billy teabag

I absolutely agree that 'Fée Opale' seems right for the false Parks' Yellow and hope there will be a smoking gun to provide the final piece of evidence. Jedmar - do you have access to any information regarding the provenance of L'Hay's Rosabelle?	REPLY

Reply #11 of 13 posted 8 AUG by HMF supporting member

jedmar

'Rosabelle' is listed in Gravereaux's first catalogue of 1900. The catalogue card in the archives is also of the period up to 1910 or so. The same with 'Fée Opale'. So there is a good chance that they were both planted immediately after Bruant commercialized it. 'Rosabelle' is still there, 'Fée Opale' not.
We can also find both in the catalogue of Bagatelle of 1912, where they were apparently planted side by side.

Reply #12 of 13 posted 8 AUG by HMF supporting member

billy teabag

Do you think the plant of Rosabelle growing at L'Hay dates back to that time Jedmar?

Thanks very much for that early Journal des Roses reference. Most of that description would describe the rose sold as Le Vésuve very accurately but the concluding remarks about certain features of Fortune's Double Yellow being less evident in Rosabelle gave me pause:

"Dans cette variété, l'influence du père (le rosier thé) s'est fait plus sentir; la vigueur est encore considerable, mais les caractères extérieurs de la mère, bois, feuillage, épines, se manifestant avec moins d'apparence."

(In this variety the influence of the Tea rose father can be felt more, its vigour is again considerable, but the exterior characteristics of the mother, wood, foliage, prickles, are less evident.)

If Rosabelle is/was viciously prickly like Fortune's Double Yellow, do you think the breeder might have mentioned it here? An oversight or a reason to back away from this identification?

Prickliness is something that is most evident to the hands-on gardener, and in earlier times many rosarians had gardeners to do the hands-on work while they took care of the eyes-on side of things. The prickles of Le Vésuve are sharp and sneaky, with many concealed beneath the leaves, but.....

I'd love to hear what others make of this.

Reply #13 of 13 posted 8 AUG by HMF supporting member

jedmar

After more than 120 years, I doubt that it is the original plant. However, comparison of the L'Haÿ plan of 1902 with the current one reveals that Noisettes, which include 'Rosabelle' at L'Haÿ, are still in the same location within the garden (section 33 of 1902). I hope Dominique Massad sees this thread and comments on it.	REPLY

Discussion id : 168-097 most recent 5 AUG HIDE POSTS

Initial post 5 AUG by HMF supporting member

billy teabag

It's worth noting that this rose has many very sharp prickles and always demands payment in blood if you dare cut blooms without gloves. It is a very tough, healthy and generous rose for us (Perth, Western Australia. Mild winters, very hot summers). In our garden it's a big prickly mound of fairly lax canes and is rarely without its really lovely buds and blooms.	REPLY

Discussion id : 146-146 most recent 18 JUN 23 HIDE POSTS

Initial post 18 JUN 23 by HMF supporting member

Orianne Courmes

Available from - Lens-roses https://lens-roses.com/fr_FR	REPLY

Discussion id : 132-646 most recent 2 MAY 22 HIDE POSTS

Initial post 2 MAY 22 by HMF supporting member

AndromedaSea

Some online vendors say that this rose is hardy in Zones 7-11. I bought one without checking here first. I’m in NJ, in zone 7a. Can this rose survive my winters? Should I keep it in a container on my (south-facing, concrete) porch? Can it thrive in a pot? And, if it actually IS hardy here, how big will it get? The one I ordered just arrived last week. It’s still in its original pot, and is bursting with buds and flowers. What a beautiful plant! I really hope it can survive here.