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'Marjorie Haven' rose Reviews & Comments
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Hi how are you ! I would remove the comment , that some authors thinks this rose and morletii seems identical . The roses is commerce are very different, and it creates only confusion.
Cheers Giulio
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#1 of 6 posted
7 JAN 21 by
 jedmar
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HMF reflects the information gathered from various sources. The fact that the roses in commerce today are distinct, does not mean that they always were and that today's identification is correct. The note is a reminder that there was some question mark to it.
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#2 of 6 posted
7 JAN 21 by
AquaEyes
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We seem overly quick to assume errors happened closer to the present. Authors from the past were just as capable of making mistakes as are authors today. I agree the references should remain as a matter of record, but I do not think that all "matters of record" are correct in their assertions. After all, authors from the past have also stated things we know today to be incorrect, such as the origin of Damasks.
:-)
~Christopher
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#3 of 6 posted
7 JAN 21 by
....
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#4 of 6 posted
7 JAN 21 by
AquaEyes
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Here's my take, having just read through the references.
An old rose is found, unidentified, in the late 19th Century, This rose is then named 'Mme Sancy de Parabere', if it is deemed unique. A few years later, an author writes that the found rose was, in fact, 'Morlettii', and declares them to be synonymous. Now keep something in mind -- by the time that author made that decision, Boursaults were already long out of fashion. So this was really a disagreement about a "found" rose of older type. Note that not all later authors agree with them being the same, and others actually note differences between the two. So while I think the references claiming synonymity should be kept, their context should also be noted, if the disagreement is mentioned at all on the description pages for these roses.
:-)
~Christopher
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‘
Journal de la Société Centrale d'Horticulture de France (1871-1879)
Magazine (1874) Page(s) 269.
Séance du 28 mai 1874....Les objets suivants ont été déposés sur le bureau: ....
6° Par M. Jamin (Ferd.), pépiniériste à Bourg-la-Reine (Seine), quelques fleurs d‘un Rosier grimpant, sans épines,qui paraît être inédit. Ce Rosier a été donné à M. Jamin (Ferd.), en l873, par M. Bonnet, horticulteur à Veuves (Seine), qui, ayant consulté à ce sujet divers spécialistes, a reconnu ainsi qu’aucun d’eux ne le connaissait. Supposant donc que cette variété n'a pas encore de nom, M. Bonnet propose de la nommer, du moins provisoirement, Madame de Sancy de Parabère.
M. Bachoux fait observer qu’il croit l’avoir cultivée, il y a 40 ans environ, chez M. de Boîsmilon, où elle était nommée R. inermis.
De son côté, M. Trufl‘aut croit également la connaître.
M. Jamin (Ferd.) ne pense pas que la qualification de inermis donnée au Rosier grimpant dont vient de parler M. Bachoux prouve l’identité de ce Rosier avec celui qu’il possède lui—même, car il y a plusieurs autres Rosiers grimpants qui sont dépourvus d’épines. Dans son établissement il en-possède de nombreuses sortes et aucune ne ressemble à celle qu’il présente aujourd’hui. Les Roses de cette variété ne sont pas très-belles si on les considère isolément; mais elles sont produites en si grande quantité que l’arbuste en devient magnifique dans son ensemble. Il est de plus très-vigoureux.
Translation:
Meeting of May 28, 1874 .. The following objects were deposited at the office [of the society]
6. By Mr. Jamin (Ferd.), nurseryman at Bourg-la-Reine (Seine), several blooms of a climbing Rose, without prickles, which seems to be novel. This Rose was given to M. Jamin (Ferd.) in 1873 by M. Bonnet, horticulturist in Vanves (Seine), who, after consulting several specialists on thsi subject, has recognized that none of them knew it. Thus assuming that this variety does not yet have a name, M. Bonnet proposes to name it, at least temporarily, Madame de Sancy de Parabère.’
This translation is missing the second and most important part
M. Bachoux observes that he believes he cultivated it, about 40 years ago, at M. de Boîsmilon's, where it was named R. inermis.
For his part, Mr. Trufl‘aut also believes he knows her.
M. Jamin (Ferd.) Does not think that the qualification of inermis given to the climbing Rose of which M. Bachoux has just spoken proves the identity of this Rose with the one he owns, because there are several other Roses. climbers that are thornless. In his establishment he has many kinds and none resemble the one he presents today. Roses of this variety are not very beautiful if we consider them in isolation; but they are produced in such large quantities that the shrub becomes magnificent as a whole. The plant is also very vigorous
This gives a clear body of evidence of this earlier confusion of the early French references stating they are syn: Nomenclature de tous les noms des roses , journal de la sociétè nationale d’ horticulture.
Germans have persevered in this error ( Rosenlexicon, Rosen zeirung, deutshes rosenbuch and another German source plus the Luxembourg quote from the Klettern frères .
So out of the 58 references on both roses just 7 ( they would be 10 but 3 are the same sources) say they are syn , so it is a rather scarce proportion anyway ....
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#6 of 6 posted
8 JAN 21 by
jedmar
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Thank you for the additional translation, which we have added. In any case, 'Mme Sancy de Parabère' seems to have been given to a found rose of earlier unknown origins. Which early Boursault would be comparable?
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My Rose club (The Syracuse Rose Society) was given access to an old garden where some plants were taken to be transferred to our city garden and others were made available to members. I had Mme Sancy as the top of my list, but the club decided the plant would be given to the city garden. I was able to take the cuttings from the top of the plant home. Somehow, the label got lost in the van.
As I stuck the cuttings, I completely forgot I had ones from Mme Sancy and stuck the cuttings under the name "Strawberry Smoothie". The strawberry shaped leaves, and smooth reddish canes were very distinctive. Later, when studying some of the roses in this old garden, I saw the pic from Pat Routley highlighting the foliage and stems. Suddenly I realized my strawberry smoothie was this one!
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Mme sancy de parabère (Maiden name Charlotte Lavinie LEFEBVRE DESNOUETTES1815-1887) was a Dame d'honneur of the empress Eugénie , wife of NapoléonIII and not of Joséphine de Bauharnais, wife of Napoleon I
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#1 of 2 posted
30 SEP 17 by
jedmar
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Thank you, corrected! Still, it seems strange to name the rose after her in 1873, as Empress Eugénie was already exiled from France 3 years ago and the Baroness would have been 58 years old at the time. Isn't this rather late for a Dame d'Honneur? There was also a daughter Marie Ernestine Blanche Lefebvre de Sancy de Parabère, Born August 1, 1836, i.e. of the right age to become Dame d'Honneur in 1855.
Addenda: There is a painting of Franz Xaver Winterhalter of Empress Eugènie and her Dames d'Honneur from 1855. Mme de Sancy de Parabère is not one of them. But in the Armorial général of 1868, Charlotte Lavinie is mentioned as "Dame du Palais de S. M. l'Impératrice Eugénie".
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The picture of winterhalter shows that "les dames du palais" are not young women but women "of age wall".
Moreover, if the rose was dedicated to Mademoiselle Ernestine, Charlotte's daughter, she would have been called "Mademoiselle (Miss)" and not Madame. To know the reason for the dedication, it would be necessary to have more element on Bonnet, the introducer of the rose.
Perhaps it is related to the paranormal Sancy family or well, would he be a gardener of the castle of Boran, property of the family.
I researched the "Bonnet" which introduced the variety MMe sancy de Parabère.
In 1873, there is only one horticulturalist family bearing this name and installed in Vanves.
Louis Jean Julien BONNET was born in Croissy-sur-Seine (Department of Yvelines) on 21 June 1820 and died in Vanves (Hauts-de-Seine Department) on 23 September 1880.
In his death certificate, he is described as "horticulturist".
He married Elisabeth SAPOULIN in Paris on 1 December 1842.
They had two children:
- Elisa Félicité born on 4 July 1847 in Paris
- Louis Félix born on May 16, 1851 in Vaugirard near Paris, who succeeded his father as a horticulturist.
He seems not to have been married and I did not find the date of his death.
I have not yet found any connection with the Sancy de Parabère family.
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Modern roses XI lists this rose as diploid
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