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'Maman Cochet' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 130-908
most recent 31 DEC HIDE POSTS
Initial post 30 DEC by Margaret Furness
Is the ploidy of Maman Cochet known?
Reply #1 of 3 posted 31 DEC by HubertG
I'm guessing that it's diploid. It normally doesn't set hips it seems because the stigma and stamens are normally replaced by petals, but from my experience if you do get some stigma it fertilises readily and produces hips quickly with plenty of seeds which seem to germinate fairly well.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 31 DEC by Margaret Furness
Thank you.
Have you had any joy from your Maman Cochet seedlings?
Reply #3 of 3 posted 31 DEC by HubertG
Only brief joy because I lost them all except one which is so double that I've never seen a properly opened flower yet. I'm hoping it will improve as it gets bigger.
Discussion id : 115-460
most recent 19 OCT 19 SHOW ALL
Initial post 21 FEB 19 by HubertG
The 1899 reference in the Moniteur d'Horticulture which gives the parentage of 'Maman Cochet' as a seedling of Catherine Mermet by an unknown (name lost) pollen parent is very interesting. The parentage of 'Maman Cochet' is always given as 'Marie van Houtte' x 'Mme Lambard' but in reality the references are exceptionally silent until the 1936 Rosenlexikon reference (unless there are earlier references I haven't seen). There is a report in the Rosenzeitung just before 'Maman Cochet' was released which makes comparisons to 'Catherine Mermet' without directly stating they might be related. The other interesting fact is that in the same article in the Moniteur d'Horticulture (that gives the parentage from Mermet) they state that the English Rose Society classes 'Maman Cochet' and 'August Comte' as synonyms. The French writer declares the two roses are in fact different and speculate that it is the English weather that keeps 'August Comte' paler, like 'Maman Cochet'. They also give 'Auguste Comte's' parentage as 'Marie van Houtte' x 'Mme. Lambard'.
I do wonder if someone compiling parentages back then saw the National Rose Society's listing of 'Maman Cochet' and 'Auguste Comte' as being the same and then assuming that they were identical, by extension, gave the parentage of 'Auguste Comte' to 'Maman Cochet'.
The 1911 list of compiled rose parentages by Mr Robert Daniels published in 'The Garden' does not include a listing of 'Maman Cochet', but does give 'Auguste Comte' with its usual pedigree.

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who grows both 'Catherine Mermet' and 'Maman Cochet' and if they can discern any similarities that might support this supposed parentage.

Here's the original French passage plus my translation:

Cette superbe rose est issue d'un semis de Catherine Mermet, qui avait été fécondé par une variété dont le nom à malheureusement été égaré pendant la maturité de la graine.

This superb rose is the result of a seedling of Catherine Mermet, which had been fertilised by a variety whose name was unfortunately lost during the ripening of the seed.

I guess it could also be read as as (Catherine Mermet x unknown) x unknown, but I do read it as Catherine Mermet x unknown.
Reply #1 of 12 posted 21 FEB 19 by Margaret Furness
Not worth asking in Aus. The Catherine Mermet we have here, imported from Sangerhausen, looks more like an HT, and not enough like its supposed sport, The Bride.
Reply #2 of 12 posted 21 FEB 19 by HubertG
That's interesting to know Margaret. Looking briefly at the 'Catherine Mermet' in California, it seems to match the original variety. There is certainly some resemblance to 'Maman Cochet' in the flower, in my opinion. I often come across photos of 'Catherine Mermet' and its sports in old catalogues but don't bother upload them because I never really thought they were that valuable, but I might post some now.
Reply #3 of 12 posted 21 FEB 19 by Margaret Furness
I should say that Rockhill in WA thinks hers would pass. Renmark's I have doubts about.
Reply #4 of 12 posted 21 FEB 19 by Patricia Routley
1869 Catherine Mermet (unknown x unknown)
1871 Marie van Houtte (Mme de Tartas x Mme. Falcot). Sets hips.
1878 Mme Lambard (Mme. De Tartas x unknown). Sets hips
1892 Maman Cochet (Marie van Houtte x Mme. Lambard) or (Catherine Mermet x unknown). Does not set hips
1895 Auguste Comte (Marie van Houtte x Mme. Lambard) Does not set hips (for me)

I grow on their own roots Maman Cochet, Auguste Comte, Marie van Houtte and Mme Lambard. I bought Catherine Mermet once but it was always tiny and only lived for a couple of years. I also had The Bride once and this lived longer, but it too faded and died.

I can understand the English Rose Society’s belief that Maman Cochet and Auguste Comte were synonymous, as early in the season Auguste Comte certainly is pale. I have often wondered if “Blackwood Inn West” (sets hips) could have been ‘Catherine Mermet’, but people assure me it is not. You raise an interesting question HubertG. Please do add anything you find on ‘Catherine Mermet’.
Reply #5 of 12 posted 22 FEB 19 by HubertG
I guess one observation that could be used for arguing that 'Maman Cochet' is a seedling from 'Catherine Mermet' is that both of these roses readily produced quite a few sports.

Patricia, I looked at the photos of "Blackwood Inn West". It's a beautiful rose and I can see how Catherine Mermet would come to mind. I'd just like to note the photo that shows somewhat pyriform hips (photo id 154181). The sole hip on my 'Maman Cochet' has a little bulge at the base similar to BIW's hips. I can't draw too much from that but if my hip were typical of Maman Cochet's hips (should she normally set hips), it's interesting that a found rose similar to 'Catherine Mermet' also sets similar hips.
Reply #6 of 12 posted 10 JUN 19 by HubertG
I found another reference to 'Maman Cochet' being a seedling of 'Catherine Mermet' in a 1904 Australian newspaper:

"Catherine Mermet is the parent stock of many of our very finest roses. Waban, The Bride, Muriel Grahame, Bridesmaid, are all sports of it, while Maman Cochet and a host of others carry the blood as seedlings."

Of course it may not be correct but it is interesting.
Reply #7 of 12 posted 10 JUN 19 by Margaret Furness
I've had further discussions with Rockhill: Catherine Mermet in Australia appears to be correct. The Bride is less certain but there are apparently few plants of it .
Reply #8 of 12 posted 11 JUN 19 by HubertG
My developing second hip on my 'Maman Cochet' is looking rather round, not pear-shaped like the first one, so I don't know what would be a typical shape were it to normally set hips.
Reply #9 of 12 posted 26 JUN 19 by HubertG
Yet another relatively early reference to 'Maman Cochet' being a seedling of 'Catherine Mermet' from a Cuban government circular of 1913:

From Estacion Experimental Agronómica de Cuba, Secretaria de Agricultura, Comercio y Trabajo, Circular No.44, page 6

"Maman Cochet. - 1892, (Catherine Mermet x ?) Flor de color rosado carne, lavado de carmín. Tamaño muy grande, muy llena, globulosa, muy vigorosa y florifera."

Maman Cochet. - 1892, (Catherine Mermet x ?) Colour of flower flesh pink, washed carmine. Very large size, very full, globular, very vigorous and floriferous.
Reply #10 of 12 posted 27 JUN 19 by Patricia Routley
i have added the 1913 Cuban reference HubertG. Would you add the 1904 reference and author, you mentioned in reply 6 please.
Reply #11 of 12 posted 27 JUN 19 by HubertG
Thanks, and I've added that 1904 reference now with some additional description. There was no stated author.
Reply #12 of 12 posted 19 OCT 19 by HubertG
I found an English reference from 1897 believing 'Maman Cochet' to be a seedling of 'Catherine Mermet'. This is the earliest reference to its parentage so far. It may or may not be correct of course but it certainly shows that early on this was thought to be its pedigree.
Discussion id : 89-811
most recent 16 DEC 15 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 16 DEC 15 by leezen
This rose balls some when foggy or damp / dewey during the night. I lose 15-20% of the blooms during these conditions. Once open, this rose is magnificent.
Discussion id : 58-048
most recent 16 OCT 12 SHOW ALL
Initial post 20 OCT 11 by IanM
This rose is undoubtedly very tough. I found one growing in the middle of a paddock in a rural area where there was evidence that a farmhouse existed there many years ago. Only a few tough garden plants remained, including a couple of peach trees and this rose. I believe it may have been planted as a kind of hedge along the front of the house originally, as it is now forming a huge clump. During the worst of the drought it died back considerably, but would still flower reliably. I decided to take cuttings on my last visit, as it is undoubtedly an extremely hardy rose. The flowers were also very vibrant and eye-catching.
At times this rose seems to have more characteristics of a HT than a classic tea rose. Even the flowers when they first open are rather HT-like. But they soon start to ruffle and it is not hard to see that they are indeed the flowers of a tea rose. The "confused mid-petals" (as Margaret Furness puts it) are also a character trait of this rose.
The leaves sometimes look closer to a HT as well, except when the new growth comes out, fairly large, red and droopy, so typical of tea roses.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 16 OCT 12 by GoldenAge
By "confused mid-petals" do you mean the way the middle petals get sort of stuck over the inner petals?
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