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'Papa Gontier' rose Reviews & Comments
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I had heard that some of the old teas take a while to establish, and this appears to be one of them. Out of several varieties of roses, including a couple of Teas and several David Austins, this was the only type that died--one of two plants. The other remaining plant is the slowest grower of all the roses. Has AMAZING flowers, had a HUGE flower this January, albeit on a plant a foot tall! It has been planted about a year.
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Have you considered that it might grow faster if you debudded it until it had some structure? Some plants will put far too much energy into blooming when they are really too small to sustain it.
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Sorry didn't see this. I'm bad, I love the flowers so much, can't do it. The flowers are surprisingly large too, must take a lot out of the plant.
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#2 of 3 posted
9 FEB 21 by
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I have my doubts about whether the rose I grow as 'Papa Gontier' (from Ross Roses) really is the correct variety.
Mine never sets hips. Nabonnand (who bred this rose) used it as a seed parent for quite a few varieties, and as dedicated crosses too, not just as randomly gathered hips. Also, 'Lady Hillingdon' is supposed to have PapaG as its seed parent as well.
I remember reading quite an old reference in one of the rose annuals (1950's, 60's?) that it was a triploid, which is all good for my rose, but doesn't make a lot of sense if Nabonnands were actively pollinating it.
Also, the commonest characteristic in the early descriptions is its very long pointed bud. I can get longish buds in cooler months but no longer than other tea roses introduced at the time. During the warmer months the flowers actually come very small and are rather irregular in shape. The early descriptions of a very large flower just don't match. The few photos that exist don't really match either. It's hard to imagine the plant I grow being used as a florists' rose, even by late 19th century standards.
So I'm in two minds about whether this is correct. Does anyone else's 'Papa Gontier' set hips? Has anyone else had doubts about this rose before?
Another thing is that Papa Gontier's sport 'Rainbow' resembles the early descriptions (apart from the stripes of course) but doesn't resemble my rose, in flower form etc.
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The Tea book says "hip small, globular, yellow to orange". Its photo of the bud looks like yours.
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#2 of 14 posted
9 MAY 18 by
 HubertG
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Thanks Margaret. It also says "only an occasional small, yellow hip matures, containing one or two seeds.".
There are seven offspring listed here with Papa Gontier as the seed parent, five of which are Nabonnand roses. I guess the Nabonnands were just very persistent in making crosses.
I also felt the shape of the rose didn't quite match the early photos, and some descriptions such as the 6cm long bud and 5" open flower ones seemed discordant.
Also the 1880's Nabonnand catalogues describe the centre as shaded yellow, which I can only see on one Papa Gontier photo here, and an old illustration, but never on mine (but which also seems to occur on 'Rainbow').
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If yours isn't especially prickly, you may have something else.
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#4 of 14 posted
10 MAY 18 by
HubertG
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Quite possibly, but mine does rather look like the other Australian Papa Gontiers here.
Does anyone who grows Papa Gontier get flowers up to 12-13cm across like the 'Journal des Roses' describes?
Or gets yellow in the base?
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Flower size is generally a bit 'how long is a piece of string'-ish with Teas. It depends on whether they are maiden plants, chopped back hard or lightly trimmed (or not trimmed at all); whether they open quickly in heat or slowly in cooler weather; whether grown under cover or the open air.
My 'Papa Gontier' has yellow petal nubs lightening to pale, creamy yellow in the eye zone.
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#6 of 14 posted
10 MAY 18 by
Rockhill
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The Tea Rose book gives the size of 'Papa Gontier' flowers as 10-15 cms and when conditions are favourable my very big, long-established bush does have flowers that are up to 15 cms in width. The buds are long and pointed and open quickly, the irregular just-double flowers are deep carmine-pink to paler pink, variable in shape and the stems are prickly. All the other 'Papa Gontier's that I have seen in Australia are the same. There are plenty of stamens and carpals and it looks like a very fertile rose. The fact that it only sets an occasional hip is probably due to genetic complications resulting from its being triploid. As for its being a florists’s rose, I have found if picked before they begin to open on the bush and put into a vase, they last very well as cut flowers. On HMF there are a few pale pink flowers that do not look much like what we call 'Papa Gontier' here. Overall, I think that the rose I grow as ‘Papa Gontier’ very well matches the early French descriptions and the rose recognised as being 'Papa Gontier' by the Friends of Nabonnand Roses.
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I think the Papa Gontier at Renmark was imported many decades ago by Alex Ross, and passed on to David Ruston. From there it was likely to have been the major source of budwood in Australia.
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#9 of 14 posted
10 MAY 18 by
HubertG
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Margaret, probably all the Papa Gontiers in Australia are from that same source (unless some old known specimen has been discovered here) but whether it is the correct variety or not was what I was questioning.
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#8 of 14 posted
10 MAY 18 by
HubertG
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Rockhill, thanks, that's encouraging to know someone does get large flowers.
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I would go along with 15cm for 'Papa Gontier'. That pen in my Oct 16, 2010 photo (158840) measures 13.5c. My plant does not grow very well, possibly being set back in its youth by a small shrub which smothered it.
I haven't really done any homework on these roses, but I would look ar two roses and their sports: I wonder about the difference between 'Improved Rainbow' and 'Mme Driout' and it may be the height.
'Papa Gontier' 1882
'Rainbow' 1889 (broad stripes')
'Improved Rainbow' c1893 (fine stripes)
'Reine Marie Henriette' (a climber)
'Mme. Driout' 1901 (A climber)
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#11 of 14 posted
11 MAY 18 by
Rockhill
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At one time, Patricia, my 'Papa Gontier' plant measured about 5 metres wide by 3 metres high but I had to cut it back before it took over that part of my garden. This is just part of what it looked like in its prime.
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How absolutely wonderful. Good gardener. Good conditions.
But I am thinking of the height of 'Papa Gontier's sport/s and I will respond further in 'Rainbow's file.
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#13 of 14 posted
4 SEP 18 by
HubertG
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I'm beginning to wonder if the rose sold in Australia as 'Papa Gontier' could in fact be 'Rose d'Evian'.
'Rose d'Evian has the same contrasting colours on the inner and reverse of the petals, large blooms, long buds, dense bushy growth.
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#14 of 14 posted
9 JAN 19 by
HubertG
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See 'Beauté Inconstante' comments for some recent opinions of mine concerning 'Papa Gontier', "Bermuda's Papa Gontier" and "Mrs Heggie's Red Tea".
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It is said that 'Papa Gontier' was named after "a notable nurseryman in Montrouge in France".
In fact it has been named after Louis Gontier's father.
Louis Gontier was an accountant and husband to G. Nabonnand's daughter.
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#1 of 6 posted
1 JAN 09 by
Darrell
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That's fascinating. Two different accounts. How did you discover that? Currently I'm doing some research on a rose, 'The Doctor.' One source states it was named after the hybridizer Dr. Nicolas, and another source claims it was named after longtime editor of American Rose Society J. Horace McFarland. Who's correct? Where might I be able to unravel the contradiction? What source or sources might help?
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Re the date of 'Papa Gontier'.
We have 8 refs which quote 1882, and 10 which quote 1883.
And then there is 1898 Chateau Eleonore reference which quotes 1878.
Does anybody know what date the Nabonnand Society are quoting?
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#3 of 6 posted
19 AUG 16 by
jedmar
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They are quoting 1883 1880, the latter with a reference to an article in the "Journal des Roses", April 1890. I will check the original article and revert.
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#5 of 6 posted
22 AUG 16 by
jedmar
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The article from 1890 states 'Papa Gontier' was commercialized in 1880; however, there are no references from that year (yet).
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Again - thank you for all your searching and work.
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'Papa Gontier' can grow bigger than the stated dimensions. My two plants are about 4' x 6' and 5' x 8'.
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