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'Rosa damascena perpetua' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 117-463
most recent 8 JUL HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 8 JUL by AquaEyes
Available from - Foundation Plant Services, UC Davis
http://fps.ucdavis.edu/roseselections.cfm
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Discussion id : 106-821
most recent 10 DEC 17 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 4 DEC 17 by CybeRose
De florum cultura libri IV, 1633, p. 203
Giovanni Battista Ferrari
(Rosa) Italica flore suaviter rubente perpetua, proximè superioribus duabus persimilis, densioribus saeuit aculeis.
= (Rosa) Italica flore pleno perpetua.
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Reply #1 of 10 posted 4 DEC 17 by jedmar
Great find! This moves the 'Autumn Damask' to almost 100 years earlier. The description of Ferrari mentions similarity to the two foregoing entries. Can you see these, too?
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Reply #2 of 10 posted 4 DEC 17 by CybeRose
Jedmar,
I can see them, but reading them is a bit of a challenge. Ferrari used margin notes instead of paragraph breaks. These are not entirely clear. The following passage seems to represent three varieties: Damascena multiplex [Double Moschata?], Subrubens flore multiplici, and Variegata flore pleno. Therefore, the previous two would be Damasks in the modern sense.

Also, è appears to be an abbreviation for et.
Karl

[Damascena multiplex]
[Subrubens flore multiplici. R. Dodon ib. Ioan. Bapt. Porta ibide.]
[Variegata flore pleno. R. Dodon. ib.]
Odoratae pallidaeque pleno flore Damascenae rosae, quam Plinii Coroneolam alii, alii spineolam interpretantur, è viride purpurascentem caudicem, ramosaque inde silvula diffusas saturo colore virentes virgas obarmant spinae admodum infrequentes, breves, durae, rubidae, lata è basi recursos in aculeos uncinatae. Vulgari sativae densis foliis leviter ex albo rubescenti, quam aut Plinianam Alabandicam, aut Trachiniam esse scriptores sanè nobiles autumant, virgei rami breviores, graciliores, subvirides, minorum grandiorumque spinarum promiscuè crebris, languido pallore lividis, intentisque mucronibus minaces. Quae variè diluto foliosifloris rubore maculosa, Praenestina dicitur, asperitate pariter aculeata inhorrescit.
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Reply #5 of 10 posted 6 DEC 17 by jedmar
For two of these roses, Ferrari is referring to Dodoens (probably "Cruydteboek") I can track it from there. The second reference to Ioan. Bapt. Porta is Giambattista delal Porta, who seems to have referred to Roses in his "Magia naturalis" of 1589.
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Reply #8 of 10 posted 8 DEC 17 by CybeRose
Jedmar,
I have looked through a few editions of della Porta's 'Magia Naturalis' (1544, 1562, 1607). I have found no mention of a Rose that was inherently reblooming. However, he did give some vague methods having roses out of season. For instance, to have blooms in January, water the plants twice a day during the summer.

Here is one (the same in 1544 and 1607) for late roses.

Rosas serotinas habere, Modum habet à Florentino edoctum. Si tunc ceraso vitem inseruisti, nunc rosam malorum cortici inoculari permitte; peregrino enim in corpore concrescens, & adolescens, quo dabat arbor fructus tempore, dehiscet rosa, mira odoris iucunditate, & pulchritudine redolens, omnibus spectari, & contemplari se sinit. Et tandem omnes fructus eiusmodi insitione tardiores efficiemus. Alter modus erit prima germina decutiendo; nam alia regerminando tempus teritur, & coelo indulgente, tardissimè maturabunt fructus, & hoc modo valemus.

Google translate is giving me some odd results. It seems that roses were budded onto cherry vines (?). That doesn't sound right.
Karl
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Reply #9 of 10 posted 9 DEC 17 by jedmar
Yes, I have seen these passages; they are not directly relevant for us, so I only added when he speaks of Rosa alba and Rosa rubra. It seems, however, that already in the 16th century roses were being forced to bloom out of season. May be not for decorative purposes, but to have material to prepare medical concoctions.
It is also indeed possible that della Porta was grafting roses on cherry branches (they are also Rosaceae) in order to have a special effect - he speaks of the the strange combination of the beauty of the tree and the sweet fragrance of the Blooms!
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Reply #10 of 10 posted 10 DEC 17 by CybeRose
Also for decorative purposes.
Gerard (1597) These flower from the end of May to the ende of August, and divers times after, by reason the tops and superfluous branches are cut away in the end of the flowring; and then do they sometimes flower even untill October, and after.
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Reply #3 of 10 posted 4 DEC 17 by CybeRose
Jedmar,
Hanmer (1659) also discussed the Monthly Rose = Rosa italica.

Joncquet (1659) Rosa omnium calendarum flore pleno carneo D. Boutin.
Eadem flore simplici purpureo?

Austen (1657), "But besides there is a Rose-tree, called the Monthly Rose, which beares Roses untill the coldness of the winter stop it, about November."
Karl
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Reply #4 of 10 posted 4 DEC 17 by CybeRose
Jedmar,
Some more alleged synonyms listed separately by Loddiges in his 1820 catalog:
71 portland
165 blush monthly
569 pestana
264 red monthly 
276 bifera carnea
280 white monthly 
617 perpetuelle rouge vif
660 tout les mois coeur gris
Karl
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Reply #6 of 10 posted 6 DEC 17 by Andrew from Dolton
I think some of those names are also listed in John Abercrombie's Everyman His Own Gardener.
https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=66.3329&tab=4
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Reply #7 of 10 posted 7 DEC 17 by CybeRose
My point is that Loddiges apparently thought that pestana, monthly, tout les mois, and bifera (at least) deserved different names.

I don't know how these varieties differed, though, because his catalog contained no descriptions aside from the names.
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Discussion id : 106-813
most recent 4 DEC 17 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 3 DEC 17 by CybeRose
A Catalogue of Greenhouse Plants: Hardy Trees and Shrubs, Herbaceous, etc. (1783)
By Daniel Grimwood
menstrua -- Red-flowered Monthly Rose.
menstrua alba -- White-flowered Monthly Rose.
menst. portlandica -- Portland Crimson Monthly Rose.
menst. variegata -- Striped-flowered Monthly Rose.
menst. corymbosa -- Red Cluster-flowered Monthly Rose. (Best for forcing.)
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 4 DEC 17 by jedmar
Karl, it seems that the 'Cluster-flowered Monthly Rose' is distinct from the 'Autumn Damask'. I will move the former synonym to 'Damascena corymbosa'
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Discussion id : 106-686
most recent 28 NOV 17 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 28 NOV 17 by CybeRose
H. C. Andrews (1805) wrote that some people mistakenly supposed that 'La Rose de quatre Saisons' was the same as the Monthly Rose. He insisted that they were quite different. Münchhausen, below, wrote that the quatre Saisons was "probably" the monthly rose.

Der Hausvater: Mit Kupfern. 1. Anweisung, wie kleine Lustwälder, Pflanzungen und ... (1770) p. 364
By Otto von Münchhausen

La Rose de quatre Saisons. (Bermuthlich die Monat-Rose.) [trans. Probably the Monthly Rose]
La Rose de Princesse, ou de May & Septembre.
La Rose à la Reine double & incarnate, très petite & magnifique.
La Rose couleur de feu double.
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