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'Rosa racemosa Andr. synonym' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 120-326
most recent 26 FEB 20 SHOW ALL
Initial post 23 FEB 20 by CybeRose
Medecyn-boec (1582)
Dr. Christoph Wirsung (Wirtsung in the book)

Rosa autumnalis — winter roose

Dodoens (1578) identified Rosa autumnalis as the Musk rose.

Wirtsung, however, gave a handful of Musk rose synonyms (Alexandrina, Caroneola [sic], Damascena, Muscata/Moscata, and Syriaca) but distinguished R. autumnalis as the "winter roose".

Ein neuwes Artzney Buch (1577)
Dr. Christoph Wirsung

Rosa autumnalis — haberrose
Reply #1 of 8 posted 23 FEB 20 by jedmar
There is some confusion about these early German names. "Haberrose" means "Oats Rose" and was apparently a name given to a wils rose which was often found on oats fields. I have seen it identified as Rosa arvensis, Rosa canina or Ros rubiginosa, with white or red blooms.
Wirsung in his "Ein new Artzney Buch" in the register for
Rosa autumnalis. HerbstRose. Such Pappelen. (see Poplars).
Under Pappeln, we find: "Das vierdte Geschlecht der Pappeln/ ist das schöne Gewechs/ dass wir Ehrenrosen/Herbstrosen/Halssrosen/Breunrosen/ unnnd Winterrosen nennen/ heisst Griechisch Molóche, Lateinisch bey dem Apuleio Hastula regia, Bey den Bräutlern Malua transmarina, Rosa transmarina, Rosa hyemalis, unnd Rosa autumnalis. Die Apotecker nennen es Maluam arboram."
[The fourth species of poplars id the beautiful plant which we call Honour roses/Autumn roses/Neck roses/Brown roses/called Moloché in Greek/ in Latin by Apuleius Hastula regia, with brides Malua transmarina, Rosa transmarina, Rosa hyemalis, and Rosa autumnalis. The apothecaries call it Maluam arboram.]
Moloché is Malva, i.e. mallow. For Hastula regia I find White asphodel or Pseudoasphodelus alpinum = Anthericum ramosum. Rosa hyemalis means Winter rose. For Rosa transmarina = Mauve de Jardin, Malva romana, Pappel-Rosen, Rosen-Pappel, Herbst-Rosen (Rosa autumnalis, as it apperas only in autumn), Winter-Rosen (Rosa hyemalis, as they bloom at the harvest until into winter).
Clearly Rosa autumnalis and Rosa hyemalis in this context is the Mallow.
Reply #2 of 8 posted 23 FEB 20 by CybeRose
Thanks, Jedmar. I was google-translating, and getting Pappelen = Apples (Dutch).

I assume that Rosa Punicea was another name for the dark red rose, rather than R. foetida bicolor. The same name was sometimes later used for the Crimson China.

It is strange to see Rosa palustris and R. arvensis as names for non-roses.

What is "Bisem Rose"?

Reply #3 of 8 posted 23 FEB 20 by Jay-Jay
Apples = Appels in Dutch.
Pappel is German for Poplar
Reply #4 of 8 posted 24 FEB 20 by jedmar
Bisam-Rose (Bisem is an old spelling) is Rosa moschata. Bisam is the Musk rat Ondathra zibethicus.
Reply #5 of 8 posted 24 FEB 20 by CybeRose
Thank you, Jedmar. You are a great help as always.

And how peculiar. Reading Wirsung's lists, it is no surprise to see a Hondroose (Dog Rose). Then I learned that the yellow rose (gele, geel, gheele) was also called Rosa vulpina, Fox Rose. And now you tell me about the Musk Rat Rose.

I'm still puzzling over: soeckt Roose, Rosa punicea.
Reply #6 of 8 posted 24 FEB 20 by jedmar
Yes Fuchs-Rose (fox rose) is Rosa foetida. Punicea comes from Latin puniceus (purplish red) and was used for Austrian Copper; but often also in the form phoeniceo/phoenicea when a purple colouring was meant. I think you have "soeckt Roose, Rosa punicea" from a index in Dutch, where "soeckt" is an old form for see/seek.
Reply #7 of 8 posted 25 FEB 20 by CybeRose
So, I was trying to reconcile two lists, one German and one Dutch. No wonder I was getting confused.
Thanks again for your valuable help.
Reply #8 of 8 posted 26 FEB 20 by CybeRose
And ultimately from the Greek Phoiníkē (purple people).

However, I have a sense that some later writers may have been referring to pomegranate flowers (Mala punica / Punica granatum).

Ferrari (1633) described a Hippeastrum (possibly H. puniceum). The flowers were "purpura in crocum languente coloratos". This reads like a recipe: purpura (from the Murex mollusk) mixed with a little saffron. In the Italian translation of 1638 the color was simply "rancio" (orange).
Discussion id : 88-528
most recent 10 OCT 19 SHOW ALL
Initial post 5 OCT 15 by Salix
It is interesting that the hips have the same shape as Fedtschenkoana. They all seem to contain 1 giant nut of a seed(achene).
Reply #1 of 1 posted 10 OCT 19 by Hardy
I'm happy to say that the marginal female fertility is not very heritable. My AD seedlings have all been significantly better seed bearers than that, and one which looks for all the world like a selfing, eventually displayed one non-damascena trait; it developed spherical hips almost like a musk's, but bigger, with 5 or so achenes each. R. damascena cannot be expected to breed true, its mixture of gallica, musk and fedtschenkoana is going to recombine and express itself slightly differently almost every time, even in selfings. Pink Leda was also a good seed bearer for me, despite looking like a 100% pure damascena. So if anyone's interested in breeding Damasks, but finds the very low hip fertility of the oldest types to be a hinderance, cross them with anything, even themselves, and expect it to go away.
Discussion id : 117-463
most recent 8 JUL 19 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 8 JUL 19 by AquaEyes
Available from - Foundation Plant Services, UC Davis
Discussion id : 106-821
most recent 10 DEC 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 4 DEC 17 by CybeRose
De florum cultura libri IV, 1633, p. 203
Giovanni Battista Ferrari
(Rosa) Italica flore suaviter rubente perpetua, proximè superioribus duabus persimilis, densioribus saeuit aculeis.
= (Rosa) Italica flore pleno perpetua.
Reply #1 of 10 posted 4 DEC 17 by jedmar
Great find! This moves the 'Autumn Damask' to almost 100 years earlier. The description of Ferrari mentions similarity to the two foregoing entries. Can you see these, too?
Reply #2 of 10 posted 4 DEC 17 by CybeRose
I can see them, but reading them is a bit of a challenge. Ferrari used margin notes instead of paragraph breaks. These are not entirely clear. The following passage seems to represent three varieties: Damascena multiplex [Double Moschata?], Subrubens flore multiplici, and Variegata flore pleno. Therefore, the previous two would be Damasks in the modern sense.

Also, è appears to be an abbreviation for et.

[Damascena multiplex]
[Subrubens flore multiplici. R. Dodon ib. Ioan. Bapt. Porta ibide.]
[Variegata flore pleno. R. Dodon. ib.]
Odoratae pallidaeque pleno flore Damascenae rosae, quam Plinii Coroneolam alii, alii spineolam interpretantur, è viride purpurascentem caudicem, ramosaque inde silvula diffusas saturo colore virentes virgas obarmant spinae admodum infrequentes, breves, durae, rubidae, lata è basi recursos in aculeos uncinatae. Vulgari sativae densis foliis leviter ex albo rubescenti, quam aut Plinianam Alabandicam, aut Trachiniam esse scriptores sanè nobiles autumant, virgei rami breviores, graciliores, subvirides, minorum grandiorumque spinarum promiscuè crebris, languido pallore lividis, intentisque mucronibus minaces. Quae variè diluto foliosifloris rubore maculosa, Praenestina dicitur, asperitate pariter aculeata inhorrescit.
Reply #5 of 10 posted 6 DEC 17 by jedmar
For two of these roses, Ferrari is referring to Dodoens (probably "Cruydteboek") I can track it from there. The second reference to Ioan. Bapt. Porta is Giambattista delal Porta, who seems to have referred to Roses in his "Magia naturalis" of 1589.
Reply #8 of 10 posted 8 DEC 17 by CybeRose
I have looked through a few editions of della Porta's 'Magia Naturalis' (1544, 1562, 1607). I have found no mention of a Rose that was inherently reblooming. However, he did give some vague methods having roses out of season. For instance, to have blooms in January, water the plants twice a day during the summer.

Here is one (the same in 1544 and 1607) for late roses.

Rosas serotinas habere, Modum habet à Florentino edoctum. Si tunc ceraso vitem inseruisti, nunc rosam malorum cortici inoculari permitte; peregrino enim in corpore concrescens, & adolescens, quo dabat arbor fructus tempore, dehiscet rosa, mira odoris iucunditate, & pulchritudine redolens, omnibus spectari, & contemplari se sinit. Et tandem omnes fructus eiusmodi insitione tardiores efficiemus. Alter modus erit prima germina decutiendo; nam alia regerminando tempus teritur, & coelo indulgente, tardissimè maturabunt fructus, & hoc modo valemus.

Google translate is giving me some odd results. It seems that roses were budded onto cherry vines (?). That doesn't sound right.
Reply #9 of 10 posted 9 DEC 17 by jedmar
Yes, I have seen these passages; they are not directly relevant for us, so I only added when he speaks of Rosa alba and Rosa rubra. It seems, however, that already in the 16th century roses were being forced to bloom out of season. May be not for decorative purposes, but to have material to prepare medical concoctions.
It is also indeed possible that della Porta was grafting roses on cherry branches (they are also Rosaceae) in order to have a special effect - he speaks of the the strange combination of the beauty of the tree and the sweet fragrance of the Blooms!
Reply #10 of 10 posted 10 DEC 17 by CybeRose
Also for decorative purposes.
Gerard (1597) These flower from the end of May to the ende of August, and divers times after, by reason the tops and superfluous branches are cut away in the end of the flowring; and then do they sometimes flower even untill October, and after.
Reply #3 of 10 posted 4 DEC 17 by CybeRose
Hanmer (1659) also discussed the Monthly Rose = Rosa italica.

Joncquet (1659) Rosa omnium calendarum flore pleno carneo D. Boutin.
Eadem flore simplici purpureo?

Austen (1657), "But besides there is a Rose-tree, called the Monthly Rose, which beares Roses untill the coldness of the winter stop it, about November."
Reply #4 of 10 posted 4 DEC 17 by CybeRose
Some more alleged synonyms listed separately by Loddiges in his 1820 catalog:
71 portland
165 blush monthly
569 pestana
264 red monthly 
276 bifera carnea
280 white monthly 
617 perpetuelle rouge vif
660 tout les mois coeur gris
Reply #6 of 10 posted 6 DEC 17 by Andrew from Dolton
I think some of those names are also listed in John Abercrombie's Everyman His Own Gardener.
Reply #7 of 10 posted 7 DEC 17 by CybeRose
My point is that Loddiges apparently thought that pestana, monthly, tout les mois, and bifera (at least) deserved different names.

I don't know how these varieties differed, though, because his catalog contained no descriptions aside from the names.
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