HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
|
|
|
'Clare' rose Reviews & Comments
-
-
|
Considering the discussion here, perhaps I can add what seems to be the significant fact, which I don't think has been mentioned (maybe I overlooked it), that George Ferrars , 3rd Marquess Townsend, not only died December 31, 1855, but died “[a]t his villa near Genoa (where he had lived for many years in the strictest retirement)." See Gentleman’s Magazine, 1856, p. 182. If the name Clare is indeed his pseudonym, it may derive from Clare Hall, Cambridge, of which a son-in-law of the Marquess, the Rev. Redsdale, was a fellow.
|
REPLY
|
-
-
|
At the moment the breeder of this Rose is listed as "unknown Italian breeder".
Shall we change this to Clare?
|
REPLY
|
|
The attribution should certainly be to J. Clare, inasmuch as J. Lindley says that it was sent to him by an English gentleman resident in Como "whose name it bears". I'm sure that my identification of J. Clare as the so-called Lord Compton referred to in many articles written by Giuseppe Manetti and thus of the real George Ferrars 3rd Marquess Townshend is correct. But perhaps it would be wiser to write (bred by Joseph Clare, thought to be George Ferrars 3rd Marquess Townshend (13 December 1778 – 31 December 1855), known as The Lord Ferrers of Chartley from 1782 to 1807 and as The Earl of Leicester from 1807 to 1855).
|
REPLY
|
|
A whole year has passed since we communicated on this subject. In the meantime I should have checked. The information you give - that identifying Joseph Clare as 3rd Marquess Townshend - is correct, but the way it is set out suggests that your authority for this identification is Loudon. In fact Loudon only lists and briefly describes the roses 'Clare' and 'Ruga', attributing both to Joseph Clare, a resident of Como.
The identification of Joseph Clare as 3rd Marquess Townshend is the result of my researches, an account of which I give bothin my book 'Le Rose italiane' and in my article 'Alias Clare and Compton', published in the journal Hortus.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#4 of 16 posted
30 OCT 17 by
 CybeRose
|
In the Transactions of the Horticultural Society of London, vol. 6, p. 535 (1826) there is an article by Joseph Clare, Esq., "On the Cultivation of Nelumbiums." In this he wrote, "A few years ago I made some experiments upon the method of growing water plants in the north of Italy..." and, "In the spring of 1822 I planted some seeds of Nelumbiums in the open air in Italy in a large tub..."
These comments suggest that he may have returned to England by 1826.
In addition, near the end of this volume there is a "List of books, and other articles presented to the Library of the Society, from May 1, 1825 to May 1, 1826. With the names of the donors." Among these gifts:
JOSEPH CLARE, ESQ.
A Drawing of Rosa Sempervirens, var. Major.
A Drawing of Rosa Clare, hybrid.
A Drawing of Rosa Sinica.
Seven Drawings of Nelumbium Speciosum.
A Drawing of Rosa Lorenzana, var. Minima.
A Drawing of the Grape of Brianza, near Milan.
A Drawing of the Carlo Apple.
A Drawing of the Ribston Pippin.
A Drawing of the Hybrid Odorata Ayrshire Rose.
A Drawing of Rosa Bracteata, var.
[Auction catalogue, books of Horticulture Society, 2 May to 5 May 1859, p. 49
977 NELUMBIUM SPECIOSUM. Seven very large Coloured Drawings and Dissection, made in Italy by Joseph Clare, Esq. 1826, in a portfolio, atlas size.]
And another thing, if this is the same guy:
Practical reflections on the nature & treatment of disease ... Fifth edition 1844,
By Samuel Westcott TILKE
List of Subscribers, p. 377
Joseph Clare, Esq., Calverton House, Bucks.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#5 of 16 posted
31 OCT 17 by
jedmar
|
Andrew and Karl, great research and finds! The link to Joseph Clare seems certain. I wonder if these drawings are still somehere in the Library. And what is 'Rosa Lorenzana var. Minima'?
|
REPLY
|
|
Presumably one of the R. Lawrenciana forms.
|
REPLY
|
|
Dear Cyberose,
Thanks for your comment. Did "Clare" alias Compton return to England in or around 1826? It's possible, but the 1826 essay was, I think, read into the record; it doesn't mean that he was in London in that period. The same goes for the donations. They coukd have been made without "Clare" being in England. Certainly the fact that Lindley had both 'Ruga' and 'Clare' in the early 1830s suggests a visit, though a) seeds may have beenn sent and b) these or plants may have ben transported by an intermediary - someone like Ridgeway, the publisher of Edwards' Botanical register, who sems to have acted as an intermediary in the acquisition of "Clare"'s house in Blevio. Possibly the drawings in the Auction catalogue are those in the donation.
As to the Joseph Clare Esq., it's difficult to say; Clare, after all, is not an uncommon surname nor is Joseph an uncommon given name. Joseph Clare Esq. could be anyone. I don't know how porous borders were then either. Could "Compton" have acquired a fake passport (no photographs then) and entered Britain? I suppose so.
I'm waiting to see how the rose pictured on hmf fares in my garden this winter.
All the best Andrew
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#8 of 16 posted
31 OCT 17 by
CybeRose
|
In the Transactions, there are details about the authors, how the papers were received. For example:
XLIX. Description of a Pit and Stoves heated by Fire and Steam jointly. In a Letter to the Secretary. By Mr. William M'Murtrie, Corresponding Member of the Horticultural Society, Gardener to the Viscount Anson, F. H. S. at Shugborough in Staffordshire. p. 440
LII. Account of a Plan for Forcing Grapes in Borders under Glass. In a Letter to Sir George Thomas Staunton, Bart. F. H. S. By the Rev. Blakley Cooper, A. M. Communicated by Sir George Thomas Staunton, p. 454
Then there is this bare note:
LXIII. On the Cultivation of Nelumbiums. By Joseph Clare, Esq. p. 535
Apparently he was not a member of the society, did not send a letter, and the paper was not "communicated" by someone else. Not absolute proof that he was in London at the time, but suggestive.
You're certainly right about the name being fairly common. I found mentions of two men named "Joseph Clare", an innkeeper and a goldsmith, in England during the relevant period. And there was a Joseph Clare, Esq. in Ohio, USA.
Karl
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#9 of 16 posted
1 NOV 17 by
jedmar
|
Wouldn't it be too much coincidence having two horticulturally interested Joseph Clares from Italy having to do with Rose Clare? I believe it is one and the same. He might not have returned to England, but surely he was travelling to and fro at the time.
|
REPLY
|
|
There is a Camellia called 'Lady Clare', I don't know if this has any relevance. .
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#14 of 16 posted
1 NOV 17 by
CybeRose
|
Magnolia Plantation and Gardens - Page 61 (2009)
Derek Fell
C. japonica 'Lady Clare' is an heirloom variety first imported to England from Japan in 1877. Also known as 'Akashigata', it was renamed by the British for commercial sales in the western world.
|
REPLY
|
|
Too much of a co-incidence, yes. Indeed, it was the Nelumbium connection not the rose one that clinched it. I saw that the English journals referred to Clare as someone living in N. Italy and experimenting with lotus plants while Italian references to such experiments were always to someone called Compton, living in the same place. The English texts never mention Compton and the Italian ones never mention Clare. Obviously Clare and Compton were the same person. I subsequently discovered that Compton, when signing legal documents, signed using the name Townshend. Not any Townshend but the 3rd Marquess Townhend.
As to the to-ing and fro-ing, I doubt it. I don't exclude some visit (see my response to CybeRose) but Clare-Compton-Townshend was a disgraced man - he had been accused of transvestism and homosexuality - who carefully protected his identity. Any visit would have had to be very carefully organised.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#13 of 16 posted
1 NOV 17 by
CybeRose
|
I have found multiple references to George 3rd Marquess of Townshend, but no Joseph.
George Ferrers Townshend, also known as Earl of Leicester, married in 1807. Within a year his wife left him, "alleging incapacity and unnatural habits."
In the meantime, George filed suit against the Morning Herald for libel. He won the suit, and wrote about it:
Crimination and Recrimination. Extraordinary Cause ... in which ... Geo. Ferrars Townshend, Commonly Called Earl of Leicester, was the Plaintiff, and the Morning Herald, Defendant, Etc (1809)
George Ferrers Townshend (3rd Marquess Townshend.)
George died in Genoa on December 31, 1855.
Wikipedia has an article about the wife's son, who became "bastardized" by an Act of Parliament in 1843. Along with more family details.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dunn_Gardner
This was certainly a colorful family. George had been disinherited by his father, but because his marriage to Sarah (the bigamist) was never dissolved, she became Marchioness Townshend when the old man died.
I find no mention of Joseph Clare or Compton in these references, though they may have been aliases for a disgraced noble man.
Karl
|
REPLY
|
|
With regard to the first line of CybeRose's comment: of course, there is no Joseph (Clare or otherwise). This (like Lord George Compton) was a pseudonym to conceal the whereabouts of the disgraced 3rd Marquess Townshend. He may have won the libel case but obviously his father believed the accusations and supported his wife's accusations.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#15 of 16 posted
1 NOV 17 by
CybeRose
|
More from Wikipedia:
The title [Earl of Leicester] was again bestowed upon George Townshend, 16th Baron Ferrers of Chartley and 8th Baron Compton, eldest son and heir apparent of George Townshend, 4th Viscount Townshend, later the first Marquess Townshend. Townshend was a female-line great-great-great-grandson of Lady Lucy Sydney, daughter of the second Earl of the 1618 creation. The earldom became extinct yet again upon the death of his son, the third Marquess and second Earl, in 1855 (the marquessate was passed on to a cousin and is still extant).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Leicester
|
REPLY
|
|
Dear CybeRose,
From a rose history standpoint the important question seems to be: was "Clare-Compton-Townshend" also the author of the roses Crivelli and Manetti? The three men were very closely linked, to say the least: on his death Crivelli leaves his estate to C-C-T who, in turn, on his death, leaves the bulk of his estate to Manetti.
|
REPLY
|
|
|
