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"Bird Children rose Reviews & Comments
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Initial post
18 SEP 14 by
Jane Z
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Patricia, what is "Rookwood Cream" reference, I've not heard that before.
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Don't know. But Margaret may be able to help. She mentioned on May 1, 2010 that at Renmark in a listing of teas, there was "Bird Children". and "Rookwood Cream" which may be another "Bird Children" - being observed.
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Patricia has emailed me that conversation. Looks like "Rookwood Cream" was a cutting that BM sent, that grew for a while in the igloo, but didn't survive long enough to be planted out.
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Margaret, your photo of "Bird Children" with the three blooms is looking similar to my photo of "Mystery Cream Tea". Although Jane's close-up photos seem more imbricated than my "Mystery Cream Tea" does.
Nevertheless, I wonder if "Bird Children" could be 'Mlle. de Sombreuil' 1851? Its parent was possibly the pink 'Gigantesque' 1834 which may, in part, explain the pink sport/reversion "Bird Children Pink".
(ps - I really liked your study-name suggestion of "Jane's Pink Bird" for the pink sport which occurred in Jane's garden.)
pps - I have deleted the Note to "Rookwood Cream".
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#4 of 18 posted
19 SEP 14 by
Jane Z
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unusual that BM would send wood out without the grave name as synonym. might it have meant to have been Rookwood McLean, mis spelt - clutching at straws here, but apart from "Stephi's Red", susbsequently changed to "Mary Ann Murray" around 2004/5 for memory, all study name roses were given earliest known grave or a location name, such as "Derek's Ofice Rose".
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Could well have been. The grower used to write the plant names on wooden icecream sticks, which are quite narrow, and reading them at times involved some guesswork. Barbara did send us McLean in that batch.
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#6 of 18 posted
19 SEP 14 by
Jane Z
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ok, that's probably what happened, deciphering BM's handwriting on to an ice cream stick - LOL - & given you don't have McLean, (one of theOphelia tribe) it's a reasonable assumption - wouldn't pass a strict provenance due diligence test, but ... :)
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#7 of 18 posted
20 NOV 18 by
 HubertG
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I made a comment under one of the photos of the pink "Bird Children" comparing it to a catalogue photo from 1910 of 'The Queen'. The habit and shape of flowers is strikingly similar. Also the foliage seems to be semi-glossy with slightly undulating edges. This can be seen even more clearly in other "Bird Children" photos as well.
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The bloom of ‘The Queen’ looks a little more heavily (more?) petalled than “Bird Children”, but I do see the wavy edges in the leaves. The stance of the flowers in the half-standard illustration is also similar. I am sure those who are interested will take this on board HubertG. Many thanks.
Searching further. I do see similarities between “Bird Children” (which I don’t have) and “Mystery Cream Tea” (do have) and I wonder if they are the same. I note the same three suggestions have been put forward for both roses - ‘Mme. Melanie Willermoz’ 1845, ‘Mme. De Sombreuil’ 1851 and ‘Cornelia Cook’ 1855.
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"Mystery Cream Tea" is definitely different.
We have also been wondering whether this pair are 'Souvenir d'Un Ami' and its white sport and have been trying to get the rose to us here in Western Australia so we can observe it closely over time.
Very frustrating as almost every attempt has met with misadventure.
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#10 of 18 posted
21 NOV 18 by
HubertG
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It would be wonderful if someone who grows either of the "Bird Children" roses could post a photo of the bloom at about the same stage of opening as in the 1906 Howard Hitchcock photo of 'The Queen' for comparison.
Also, regarding the leaves, there does seem to be a distinctive valley/fold/crease along the midvein of the leaves in the "Bird Children" and photos of "The Queen" giving it a shallowly V-shaped effect.
I did grow "Mystery Cream Tea" (as Susan Irvine's Cream Tea) quite a while ago, and just going from memory and looking at the photos of the "Bird Children" roses, my impression too is that they aren't the same rose.
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The "Bird Children" roses - both pink and white forms, hang their heads so persistently, you could only get a photo like that by supporting it in that position.
I'll upload a few photos to show you what I mean and include a couple where I've lifted them up to show the face of the bloom.
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#12 of 18 posted
22 NOV 18 by
HubertG
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Thanks Billy, I certainly got my wish. There certainly is a distinct similarity with the 1906 photo of "The Queen". There is even a similar slight crimping effect on the petals.
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#14 of 18 posted
22 NOV 18 by
HubertG
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How is the scent?
Interestingly, the Rosenlexican 1936 references give 'The Queen' a 5/10 and 'Souvenir d'un Ami' a 7/10.
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Well it's always subjective and dependent on the conditions of the day, so lots of luck to anyone trying to corral that feature into a reliably repeatable format!
I have a tiny wee plant of the pink bird child and it has a single bloom that has that elusive sweetish, floralish, mysteriousish Tea rose scent. A hint of violet today, a hint of floral lifesavers if you're old enough to remember them.
The plant - it's posture and gesture and all its features - is so much like the picture from "Die Rose - ihre Anzucht und Pflege" Jedmar has uploaded.
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#16 of 18 posted
22 NOV 18 by
HubertG
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Thanks, at least it has a scent and it sounds nice! I do remember Lifesavers but not the floral ones.
Also compare the JaneZ 2008 photo of an open bloom of Pink BC (id 254978) to the 1912 photo of 'Souvenir d'un Ami' (id 156351). Again striking similarity there too. The bud in that photo looks rather egg-shaped and the edges seem to lift and scroll a little. Is this bud pattern typical of the "Bird Children"?
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We have yet to have established plants here in the west to watch and learn from.
The photos on HMF provide a record of how they have looked when I have visited them at the HRIA Repository at Renmark and Margaret and Janes' photos show the same range.
Thanks to the kindness of friends in SA, we have been trying to get plants here for some years but have been frustrated at almost every turn. The fumigation required to pass quarantine combined with postal delays is hard on tiny roses and rose bits and we've not had success with budwood to date. I have one very small cutting grown plant that is being nurtured in the hope that there will be some propagating material next season.
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#18 of 18 posted
23 NOV 18 by
HubertG
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I just found another catalogue photo of 'The Queen' (id 325632) which gives a good view of an elongated receptacle. Compare to the "Bird Children" photo id 325602. They appear to be identical.
So far, everything is indicating that there is a exceptionally good possibility that the white "Bird Children" is 'The Queen'/'Souvenir de S.A. Prince'. at least in my mind.
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