"Red Ethel" rose reviews and comments

	Description		Photos		Lineage		Awards		References		Member Ratings		Member Comments		Member Journals		Cuttings		Gardens		Buy From

"Red Ethel" rose Reviews & Comments

My HMF:

☐ POST COMMENT

Discussion id : 166-934 most recent 25 APR 24 HIDE POSTS

Initial post 24 APR 24 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Guildford Nurseries, Ethel Street, Guildford, was owned by Charles Rhodes. (see 1939 advertisement photo uploaded today in “Red Ethel”. )
It is feasible that they may have stocked Alister Clark’s ‘Lady Rhodes’ <1933 rose. Does anybody have access to any of Guildford Nurseries catalogues?

‘Lady Rhodes’ was said to be of moderate height, short stems, and a lasting bloom.
However, the colour was said to be “between red and pink” and “scarlet, passing to crimson carmine” with 60 petals.
How many petals does “Red Ethel" have?

Reply #1 of 6 posted 24 APR 24 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

A quick look at Trove says that he was also Mayor of Guildford and was involved in judging rose exhibitions. One article mentions that 'Billy Boiler' grew at the nursery so it's very likely that he sold other Clark roses. I'm wondering if he might have been family to Mrs. Clark.

From the Perth 'Mirror' 7 June 1930 page 5:

"Roses there are by the hundred from the old time Gloir de Dijon and Marechal Ney [sic] to the new and perhaps more fashionable varieties. There is a grand new scarlet rose, Billy Boiler, which flowers all the year round. But space forbids telling of all the horticultural wonders."

Reply #2 of 6 posted 24 APR 24 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Thanks HubertG.
Alister Clark was born in 1864, so any contemporary may have been Charles Rhodes Sr.

Charles Cecil Rhodes born c1898. was the nursery owner.
His mother's name was Frances Rhodes and it was his father, also Charles Rhodes who was the Mayor. The family's address was 7 Olive Street, Guildford.

From the website Guildfordanzacs:
Rhodes became a noted horticulturalist in WA . He later developed extensive commercial rose gardens in Ethel Street and and another nursery in Market Street, Guildford. Rhodes wrote articles for the West Australian and was noted rosarian. C.C. Rhodes' father was a noted civic figure and was a Mayor of Guildford.

Reply #3 of 6 posted 25 APR 24 by HMF supporting member

Margaret Furness

You can visit the property 'Otahuna' owned by Alister Clark's brother-in-law in the south island of NZ (where I stranded a hire car on a rock - Patricia would remember the Heritage Rose roadtrip in the region). (Edited to remove an error.)	REPLY

Reply #4 of 6 posted 25 APR 24 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

With great clarity Margaret. I recall swearing OUT ALOUD when you hit the rock and I was sitting in the back with Milton Nurse.

I think I have found a births/deaths/ marriages connection to Arthur Rhodes who was Alister Clark's brother-in-law. (brother to Edith Clark (nee Rhodes) and the lawyer for the Clark family.
However, it is my first time at this stuff and I am getting bamboozled a bit. Take the following with some salt for the moment.

Arthur RHODES married
Annie Elizabeth JOY
Their child was

Annie Elizabeth RHODES (c1868-1936) aged 68 who died in Middle Swan, W.A.

Charles Rhodes [Sr,] (c1898-1948) married
Frances ….. (....-1953).
Their child was:

Charles Cecil Rhodes [Jr.] (c1898-1987) aged 89. Died at Boya, W.A.

Reply #5 of 6 posted 25 APR 24 by HMF supporting member

Margaret Furness

Looking at 'The Women behind the Roses', by the Govanstones (Rosenberg 2010).
Arthur Heaton Rhodes and Sophia Circuit Rhodes of 'Elmwood', Christchurch, NZ had 6 children.
Edith Rhodes married Alister Clark in 1888.
Heaton Rhodes married Alister's sister Jessie Clark.

The contemporary baritone Teddy Tahu Rhodes may come from a different line, as his ancestors added the name Tahu (a Maori word meaning 'to set on fire') to theirs soon after arrival in NZ (early 1840s). But someone more competent in tracing families is welcome to correct me.

Reply #6 of 6 posted 25 APR 24 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

Regarding any possible connection between Mrs Clark and Charles Rhodes - both trees seem to have been fairly well researched and are online and although both their Rhodes lines ultimately go back to Yorkshire, I can't see any connection between the two families going back to the early 18th century at least.

Charles Rhodes (1874 -1948) was a Fellow of the Royal Horticultural Society according to the newspapers, so considering that and his surname it's still possible that Alister Clark knew of him, and it would be nice to think that he sent roses over to him. Upon being appointed Mayor of Guildford in 1921 Charles Rhodes tendered his resignation as inspector for the Agricultural Department of the Swan district. Both he and his son Charles Cecil Rhodes are listed as "Nurseryman"at the same address in the 1931 Swan Electoral roll.

Discussion id : 129-719 most recent 19 NOV 21 HIDE POSTS

Initial post 16 NOV 21 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Would those who grow the bush ‘Etoile de Hollande’ please take a look at the photos of “Red Ethel ”. Any information on the arrangement of the pistil and stamens would help a great deal too.	REPLY

Reply #1 of 8 posted 17 NOV 21 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

I used to grow 'Etoile de Hollande' years ago and, although my memory it isn't good enough to comment on its pistil and stamens, I remember flowers usually coming little more than semi-double with broad, rather rounded outer petals like in the photographs here of Hurley's 'Australian Rose Growing for Amateurs' and the 'Womens Weekly'. I guess my overall impression is that Red Ethel isn't what I grew as Etoile de Hollande, although I do look at some of the photographs in European and American catalogues and wonder if it came more well formed in cooler conditions. It did have a wonderful strong sweet scent.

Reply #2 of 8 posted 17 NOV 21 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Thank you HubertG, There seemed to be some inconsistency in the number of petals in ‘Etoile de Hollande’ (1925-43 reference).

Peter Ellis in Perth thought that ‘Etoile de Hollande’ seemed a good possibility for “Red Ethel”. There are excellent photos from Jay-Jay of ‘Etoile de Hollande’s straight thorns in Members Comments and the 1952 reference mentions straight thorns. Perhaps photos of “Red Ethel’s” canes would bring some resolution. It will be at least a year before my tiny plant produces anything to photograph. .

Ps - I am puzzled by John Nieuwesteeg comments - he wrote in the ‘Etoile de Hollande’ 2015 reference that his EdH plant is almost thornless. It may just be this rose is mostly thorny below, with bloom stems almost thornless.

Reply #3 of 8 posted 17 NOV 21 by HMF supporting member

Jay-Jay

Doesn't quite resemble Étoile de Hollande... Maybe Crimson Glory? A strong damask scent too and more resemblance?	REPLY

Reply #4 of 8 posted 17 NOV 21 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Thank you Jay-Jay. I appreciate your thoughts. I see Hillary Merrifield listed ‘Etoile de Hollande’ in her garden and she was the person who uploaded the Perth photos of “Red Ethel” so would have known they were different roses. I will let Peter Ellis know.	REPLY

Reply #5 of 8 posted 18 NOV 21 by HMF supporting member

jedmar

I have both EdH and CG in their climbing versions. While the blooms look similar, there are yet differences to what I see of Red Ethel. I will also add some photos to illustrate:
- RE seems to have very strong reddish prickles. The bud looks globular and the not fully expanded bloom covers its inner petals in the manner of Mme Caroline Testout
- In CG the prickles are much finer and the buds are somewhat ovoid. When the bloom fully expands it shows its stamens like RE
- EdH has less petals, the bloom is flatter and the buds shorter

Reply #6 of 8 posted 18 NOV 21 by HMF supporting member

jedmar

There were many similar dark red HTs with strong fragrance in the early 20th century. Advance search shows e.g. Crimson Queen, Dr G. Krüger, Earl Haig, Etoile de France, Hadley, Helen Gould, His Majesty, Laurent Carle, Liberty, among others. I would also add Richmond to the list. You might check which of these were available in Australia.	REPLY

Reply #7 of 8 posted 18 NOV 21 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Thanks Jedmar. I’ll do that tomorrow. and add ‘Georges Laing Paul’ 1903 to the growing list. Patricia	REPLY

Reply #8 of 8 posted 19 NOV 21 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

Patricia, have you seen any photographs of 'Star of Queensland'? Could that be a possibilty?	REPLY

Discussion id : 129-543 most recent 9 NOV 21 SHOW ALL

Initial post 2 NOV 21 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Reply #1 of 2 posted 8 NOV 21 by HMF supporting member

billy teabag

I grow both Patricia. Both are red and prickly but they are not the same. I'll go over them feature for feature and provide more detail asap.	REPLY

Reply #2 of 2 posted 9 NOV 21 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Thank you Billy. We look forward to that. I have added some possibilities to the main page. If anybody…… can discount any of these names, a short list is better than a long list.	REPLY

Discussion id : 129-440 most recent 23 OCT 21 HIDE POSTS

Initial post 21 OCT 21 by Rachel B

22/10/2021 Today, Peter Ellis visited Blackwood (the remainder of a c. 1920 public garden of Horace Mofflin in Darlington, WA), and identified one of the remaining original roses as Red Ethel ROR. Most of the roses in this garden were modern roses during that era, and were sourced from Hazlewood Bros. I wonder if the original ID of Red Ethel is in the catalogues?	REPLY

Reply #1 of 1 posted 23 OCT 21 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Peter Ellis is a treasure! Hazlewood would have almost certainly listed this rose, but under what name? During my lunchtime rest yesterday, I read through their 1922 catalogue and noted the following:

Novelties of 1922
Crusader 1919. Low fragrance, blooms singly, blues.
Earl Haig <1921. Few thorns, solitary, center flat
Francis Scott Key 1913. Long stems, 95 petals, colour seems different to “Red Ethel”.
Gloire de Hollande 1918.
G. Glassford 1921. Garnet red, long buds.
Mrs. Henry Winnett 1917. Long strong stems
Princess Victoria 1920. Orange base
Souvenir de Claudius Denoyel <1920. a pillar rose
The General 1920. Flushed orange
Yves Druhen <1920. Long stems.

Novelties of 1921
Archie Gray <1916. Crimson, flamed scarlet
Captain Georges Dessirier <1919. Long stems, spreading habit.
Etoile de Hollande
Firebrand 1915. Climbing, possibly a single rose.
Nederland 1919. Long strong stems

General list
Laurent Carle 1907
Hoosier beauty.1915. Long stems
George Dickson 1912. Tall bush
Rhea Reid 1906. Thornless
Red Radiance. 1916. Long heavy stems
C, V. Haworth 1917.
Colonel Oswald Fitzgerald 1917. No fragrance
Triumph 1907. Vigorous upright shrub
Etoile de France 1903. Few thorns, long stems
General Superior Arnold Janssen 1911. Long stems
Chateau de Clos Vougeot. 1908. Spreading laterally, thornless
Liberty
Walter C. Clark 1917. Maroon crimson shaded black
Mrs. Edward Powell 1910. Thornless, long stems
Mrs. R. C. Bell 1920. Long stems, medium height.
John Davison 1919. Mild fragrance
H. V. Machin 1914
Chas K. Douglas 1917. Open informal blooms.
Mary Countess of Ilchester 1910. “Splendid for cutting” therefore long stems? Has circular petals.
Covent Garden 1919. No perfume. Cut flower, long erect stem.
Edward Mawley 1911

Billy sent me down some wood of “Red Ethel” in 2017. It struck successfully and I spread it around to three other gardeners, keeping one for myself. After planting it out, the rose went backwards and disappeared. This year it has resurfaced and this makes me think it could have pernetiana blood, as do the prickles. The center ball I am seeing in Hillary’s photos of “Red Ethel” suggest either a Radiance or Mme. Caroline Testout family.

I also have a similar red prickly HT foundling that I found in two gardens: “Alice Red” and “Birte Venske No. 2” (on HelpMeFind). I wondered for a good while if it could have been Alister Clark’s ‘Mrs. Harold Brookes’, but came to the conclusion that it was perhaps not that rose. I will keep an eye on these three foundlings and compare - and suggest that other Perth members might like to read one Hazlewood catalogue each and put forward suggestions. It would be a process of elimination.