HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
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Initial post 29 NOV by Isobel
Can anyone recommend a large (6m or larger is fine) climber with dark/deep red blooms that will thrive in the SW of WA once established....... preferably Heritage, preferably fragrant
Reply #1 of 57 posted 29 NOV by Patricia Routley
'General MacArthur Cl.' 1923 or 'Marie Nabonnand' 1941
Nice to see your name Isobel.
Reply #2 of 57 posted 30 NOV by Margaret Furness
In my garden (Adelaide Hills), Marie Nabonnand is a medium climber re height; it spreads further than it climbs. It has a lot going for it - flowers well through winter, has few prickles, and is fragrant. It's red, not deep pink as in the description.
Then there's good old Black Boy (1918), and more shapely flowers in Climbing Crimson Glory, 1940s, which I haven't grown. I don't think either are more than medium climbers.
Reply #7 of 57 posted 1 DEC by Isobel
Thank you Margaret, I already have Black Boy and Crimson Glory. I need something as dark and rich as Black Boy if possible. Your insight that Marie Nabonand grows horizontally rather than vertically is useful. I am growing them on the paddock fence up the driveway to the house, so that would be most convenient. How red is Marie Nabonand, I thought it had more pink in the shading?
Reply #6 of 57 posted 1 DEC by Isobel
Hello Patricia how are you both and how is your beautiful garden? Do you still have Patricia's Secret growing? I need the deep red rose for my fenceline..... I only have 2 left to fill, out of 32. I need Alberic Barbier, which is surprisingly hard to obtain in WA and the deep red rose. I'll try to find MacArthur and Marie Nabonand and see if either of them are dark enough. I already have Crimson Glory and Black Boy as suggested by Margaret Furness. I would like something as dark and rich as Black Boy if possible. Thanks for your help.... talk again soon.
Reply #3 of 57 posted 30 NOV by billy teabag
Hi Isobel - My thoughts immediately went to the same roses Patricia suggested.
'Marie Nabonnand' is a wonderful rose - the foliage is very healthy and attractive and, once established, it repeats well, flowering through winter in Perth and the fragrance is gorgeous. It's very biddable in its habit - I've seen it used as a wall or screen, on fences and walls, up trees and up and over various structures. My plant is approx 4 metres. Prickles are rare so it's a good rose to grow near paths and gateways etc.
You might be able to find it in nurseries under the name "Beales' Monsieur Tillier", otherwise it may have to be a special request.

I also love Climbing General MacArthur. It is vigorous (though I suspect 6m would be quite a stretch) and has exquisitely fragrant and opulent blooms that are often a deep, rich pink colour rather than true red
The Perth region of Heritage Roses in Australia is planning to plant both 'Marie Nabonnand' and 'Climbing General MacArthur' on one of the pergolas at Falls Farm in Lesmurdie.

Racking brain trying to think of a healthy and fragrant repeat flowering red climber that would reach 6 metres and nothing is leaping to mind. The fragrant deep red rose I received as 'Climbing Crimson Glory' (a question mark over whether it is the real thing) is lovely but modest in size, and our 'Blackboy' has lovely blooms with a nice fragrance but the foliage often looks pretty ordinary and I wouldn't be inclined to make it a feature plant. (I'd be interested whether others find this as well).
If you are looking for a rose to plant against a wall, there are some wonderful healthy and floriferous shrub roses that exult in Perth conditions and will reach impressive heights if given something to lean against. Mutabilis is one of these.
Perth Region of Heritage Roses in Australia are having a Christmas get-together at Falls Farm this Saturday afternoon/ evening and you'd be very welcome to come along if you are free - an opportunity to ask others with first hand experience in local conditions. If you need any help finding any of these plants we can help with propagating material.
Reply #4 of 57 posted 30 NOV by Margaret Furness
Yes, Black Boy has huge sentimental value - so many of us grew up with it - but it wouldn't be my first recommendation.
Reply #5 of 57 posted 30 NOV by Andrew from Dolton
Would 'Climbing Étoile de Hollande' do any good?
Reply #8 of 57 posted 1 DEC by Isobel
The photo of Cl Étoile de Hollande looks the right colour. The strong fragrance is also very appealing. How does the colour compare to Black Boy. I would really rather have an Heritage rose but I'm guessing since none of you have suggested an older rose that there are very few or none in this colour?
Reply #9 of 57 posted 1 DEC by Margaret Furness
A few older ones. Bardou Job 1882 is a parent of Black Boy, but it's only a small climber. Cl Cramoisi Superieur 1885 is a China, not much scent. Noella Nabonnand 1901 is scented.
Marie Nabonnand is red but not the dark colour of Black Boy.
Reply #12 of 57 posted 1 DEC by billy teabag
I'm wondering what you have in mind when you say 'heritage' rose Isobel, as all the varieties suggested here so far are heritage roses.
Reply #14 of 57 posted 1 DEC by Andrew from Dolton
Maybe some of David Austin's modern English roses could be another option. They repeat, have good red colours and scent, a more traditional shape than floribundas and hybrid-teas, some quartered and with a button eye. But I don't know how they would grow in your climate. You seem to want your cake and eat it..... :-)
Reply #15 of 57 posted 1 DEC by Margaret Furness
Many of David Austin's roses can grow very big in hot climates. "Good scent" depends on how you feel about myrrh, for many of them. I like Jude the Obscure.
The definition of heritage roses varies depending on who you talk to, but taking it as "introduced 75 years or more ago" lets us include the later Teas and Alister Clark roses. I would add the roses that the Chinese (for example) have been growing for a long time, but are recent introductions to Europe etc.
Reply #18 of 57 posted 14 days ago by Isobel
I guess I mean older roses (maybe pre 1900??) and perhaps Teas.
I've looked up all of your suggestions and of them Etoile de Hollande is dark enough for what I want. Noella Nabonand and Marie Nabonand and M Tillier are all a bit too pink in the photo. I'm not sure how close it is to the real thing! Photos are always a bit out depending on the light and the season too probably.
I like Alister Clarke. I have a few of his on the line. i'll try and take a good pic, so you can see what I'm trying to achieve.
Reply #21 of 57 posted 14 days ago by billy teabag
Do you have General Gallieni? Not a climber but a splendid Red Tea.
If good, bushy shrub roses will do the job, either alone or in groups, General Gallieni and Cramoisi Superieur will give you a good deep red colour on a very healthy and ever-blooming plant.
Alister Clark's 'Restless' and "Camnethan Cherry-Red" are also worth consideration.
Reply #22 of 57 posted 14 days ago by Isobel
I have Restless further up the fence. That's the trouble really, I already have a good number in and it has reduced my options for the gaps. A China(?) would fit the bill Margaret. Can you think of a largish dark red one?
Thank you all for you advice and expertise. I'm writing down the candidates and will follow up with more research to try and determine if the colour will fit in between Chateau d'clos Voggeott and Black Boy.
Reply #23 of 57 posted 14 days ago by Margaret Furness
Have a look at Ten Thousand Lights - the biggest China we have. Starts pink, ages red, like many other Chinas. Not a climber but will reach 3m, and you could prune it flatter than its usual solid bush.
There is Cl Cramoisi Superieur, if you can get hold of it.
But consider this: three of us have recommended Marie Nabonnand. I guess you need to see it in the flesh.
Reply #10 of 57 posted 1 DEC by Isobel
Hello Billy
Thanks for the invitation and for the offer of propagating material. I've noticed that some of the roses I'm growing seem to have pinker tones or flush pink in the cold. I put in Gypsy Boy thinking it was a red colour but it blooms more a bright pink/mauve here. We are having a very strangely cool spring. I wonder if that is the cause?
Reply #11 of 57 posted 1 DEC by Andrew from Dolton
Some of the hybrid perpetuals like 'Général Jacqueminot' make tall plants they could be trained as climbers.
Reply #13 of 57 posted 1 DEC by billy teabag
Yes - we have seen some unexpected colours too.
Are you in Perth Isobel, or further south?
Reply #28 of 57 posted 13 days ago by Isobel
We're between Donnybrook and Boyup Brook (Mumballup actually) Where the ****'s Mumballup? Half way between Yabberup and Noggerup!
Reply #32 of 57 posted 13 days ago by billy teabag
That is very funny!
Reply #16 of 57 posted 1 DEC by Jay-Jay
Naturally, I would recommend (as I always do) Cl. Étoile de Hollande. But there is some discussion, whether the real-one is available in Australia.
Not that large, but deep dark red, very fragrant and available in Australia: 'Souvenir du Docteur Jamain'
Maybe plant two, instead of a larger-one?
Of course, I do not know, if it thrives in Your climate and soil.
Reply #17 of 57 posted 1 DEC by Patricia Routley
Isobel - Yes I still have what you call Patricia"s Secret. I call it 'Wisteria Stump Seedling'. At certain times of the year, the wisteria wins, at others, the rose leaps out of the top.
I have 'Alberic Barbier' and it grows well from cutting. You only have to ask.
If the criteria is a dark/deep red climber, 'Etoile de Hollande' seems a good suggestion. Andrew Ross (Ross Roses in S.A.) is quite sure he has Etoile de Hollande' and the photo he sent me looks very similar to those from Jay-Jay. I suspect my presumed 'Etoile de Hollande' came to me misnamed from another source.
Find another place on your property for 'Marie Nabonnand'. You might find the 2009 reference for it of some interest.
Reply #19 of 57 posted 14 days ago by Isobel
I'd love a bit of Patricia's Secret/Wisteria Stump Seedling. Also a cutting of Alberic Barbier please. Also did you ever discover the real name of your found rose no.25?

Bother, I mean Alfred Carrriere NOT Alberic Barbier. I always mix the names of these two. I want the yellow buds and cream flowers. I had Alberic Barbier there but it has a pink flush in the base of the petals so I've moved it.
Reply #20 of 57 posted 14 days ago by Margaret Furness
This is what Thomas for Roses have as Cl Etoile de Hollande, but they don't send to WA. Today at least the flowers aren't dark red. It has red new shoots, as Teas do, which attract parrots (be warned).
Reply #24 of 57 posted 14 days ago by Patricia Routley
Just tell me what season you want the cuttings and I can post them.
Rose No. 25? Sorry that is an early number, way back before I computerised my garden records.
Now, I am not sure what you want. (You do know that you can search HelpMeFind for information on any rose in SEARCH/LOOKUP)
'Mme. Alfred Carriere' has a pink flush.
'Alberic Barbier' has yellow buds.
Reply #29 of 57 posted 13 days ago by Isobel
I really am mixed up aren't I? The yellow buds...... Alberic Barbier..... that's what I want.
Reply #26 of 57 posted 14 days ago by Jay-Jay
I can confirm, that Cl. Étoile the Hollande HAS red new shoots.
And lighter red flowers in summer/bright sunlight, or when the temps are high.
Reply #33 of 57 posted 12 days ago by Nastarana
For us in cold climates who think parrots are charming birds, could you please explain why attracting them would be a problem?
Reply #34 of 57 posted 12 days ago by Margaret Furness
Rosella parrots know that red new shoots on roses indicate sugar-filled sap running in them...delicious! Which is pretty clever, considering that roses aren't native to the Southern hemisphere. Cockatoos know how to tackle walnuts, too; standing on one foot and holding the walnut in the other. But none of them know that stone fruit and apples should be left to ripen.
The rose damage is mainly an irritant for the home gardener, but for display gardens it's more of a problem.
Reply #25 of 57 posted 14 days ago by Jay-Jay
At my place, Mme Alfred Carrière is the pinkish-one at the base of the petals and not yellowish in the bud-stage.
Reply #27 of 57 posted 14 days ago by Margaret Furness
I like the idea; but I would suggest that you don't let the ramblers root down (I speak from bitter experience).
Reply #30 of 57 posted 13 days ago by Isobel
Have the rambler's suckered?
Reply #31 of 57 posted 13 days ago by Margaret Furness
Ramblers mostly don't sucker (multiflora understock certainly can), but in general they will layer themselves if allowed to trail on the ground. That's partly why Dorothy Perkins, American Pillar, Hiawatha, Excelsa etc thrive on road verges in the Adelaide Hills.
Reply #35 of 57 posted 10 days ago by Isobel
Thankyou. That's useful information. I have Excelsa grown in a pot as a cutting.... I don't actually like it much so I must dig it up before it gets away! I also take your point about Marie Nabonand. Clearly I will have to get it, I'm just not sure it's dark enough for the position I'm wanting to fill. I can try some and see what they colour they are when they flower. Billie do you know of anywhere in WA that would sell any of these? Particularly: Marie Nabonand, Etoile de Hollande, Camnethan Cherry Red, General Gallieni, S. de Docteur Jamain. I can't find any of them on M's or SRG's lists. (not sure if I can name business' on this site)

Parrots are a scourge! I have trouble with '28' parrots. One year I had Buff Beauty shaping up to be absolutely gorgeous with lots and lots of buds. The next day they were ALL on the ground. Why??????
Reply #36 of 57 posted 10 days ago by Patricia Routley
I highly recommend 'Excelsa' and on a long fenceline as yours, it may be ideal. And if it suckers there, so what?
Perhaps you might give some thought to the timing of blooming. Many ramblers come into blooming for me in December, weeks after the main flush of other roses.

You can certainly name nurseries on HelpMefind. I would guess and say that those roses are unobtainable on Melville's Rose n Garden, or on Swiss Rose Garden catalogues. I know they would sell umpteen 'Marie Nabonnand' if only they would stock them. Both Billy and I could help with cuttings of "Camnethan Cherry Red" and 'General Gallieni', but I have been unable to strike 'Marie Nabonnand'.

Photos of 'Excelsa':
Reply #37 of 57 posted 7 days ago by Isobel
I seem to have most success with cuttings started around the break of season. So could you send me some of "Camnethan Cherry Red", 'General Gallieni', 'Wisteria Stump Seedling', 'Alberic Barbier' and I would like to try 'Marie Nabonand' but perhaps I should try it grafted. I would also like a grafted 'Cl. Etoile de Hollande' but it seems I may have to get that from somewhere in the east. Ross Roses perhaps? Maureen Ross has been very helpful in advising me on colours for my fence perhaps they could also supply me with 'Marie Nabonand'.
Reply #38 of 57 posted 7 days ago by Margaret Furness
I doubt they have Marie Nabonnand for sale yet, but you could ask. I haven't had difficulty striking it from cuttings, using the ziplock bag method in warm weather.
Reply #39 of 57 posted 7 days ago by Jay-Jay
How do You perform that trick, Margaret?
Would You be so kind and explain?
I'm curious!
Reply #40 of 57 posted 7 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
I only try to strike cuttings from hardwood stems put in gritty soil over winter, it would be really interesting to try this method.
Reply #41 of 57 posted 7 days ago by Margaret Furness
I've tried to add the link to the HRIAI website, but it isn't getting through. This is a variant of Mike Shoup's technique. In theory it works for any plant without fuzzy leaves. It needs at least 6 weeks of warm weather; so in South Australia I can start cuttings from mid-November till mid March.
Use ziplock food storage bags ("doggybags") about 35 x 25cm, and cut off the bottom corners for drainage. Add about 10cm of your favourite potting mix, and mix in a handful or two of an aerator - Perlite is OK but non-clumping kittylitter is much cheaper (that's what people buy to put in plastic trays for cat toilets). Fill with water to the top of the soil then close the bag and leave it to drain for a couple of hours.
Cuttings should have had a flower. For climbing roses, use a climbing branch. Thicker stems, up to pencil size, have more stored carbohydrate and should do better, but old-rose-rescuers often have to use much smaller ones. Cut off the top bud. Remove the leaves from the lower 2 nodes; these will go into the potting mix. Leave some leaves on the upper nodes (ideally 2 or more, depending on the height of the doggybag). Cuttings without leaves are much more likely to fail.
Re-cut the bottom of the stem obliquely below a bud, and scrape a bit of the bark off down the side away from the bud (about 2cm long). I dip the cutting into rooting hormone, some people use honey, some don't use anything. Make a hole in the potting mix to near the bottom of the bag, and put the cutting into it. Each bag will take 3 or 4 cuttings. Ideally they should all be from the same cultivar. If you put different cuttings in, write the name or an understandable abbreviation on each stem, with an Artline Garden Marker, otherwise they will get mixed up when you take them out of the bag. (Believe me on this!) Seal the bag and write the date and the name of the cultivar on it.
Put 3 or 5 bags in a cheap plastic tray so they can support each other, and won't stain what you put them on. Put the tray where it will get light but not direct sunlight. You can open bags to remove fallen leaves, flower buds, and dead cuttings, but make sure you re-seal them. You can blow into the bag to plump it up. If there aren't many moisture droplets inside the bag, you can add a teaspoon of water, but this is usually not necessary. It's important that the drainage holes aren't blocked, and that the developing roots aren't disturbed.
After some time (4 weeks for ramblers, 6 for Teas, Chinas and polyanthas; HTs may take much longer), look at the bottom of the bag for developing roots. When good root systems have developed, open the bag and leave it for a few days or a week for the cuttings to acclimatise. They may need some water. (If you are going on holiday, you can leave the roots to grow for several more weeks before opening the bag.) Then scoop out the rooted cutting with a handful of potting soil. Pot up (I use 12cm pots) and water in with dilute Seasol or other root stimulant. Tiny new leaves will wilt straight away so you might as well remove them. I expect to lose at least 1 in 12 plants after potting up. Protect from wind for some weeks, as the young plant will be top-heavy. Introduce gradually to sunlight. In SA in summer the plant will need daily watering; and I water weekly with dilute Seasol, alternating with a dilute trace-element provider.
It doesn't work well with Old European roses, but I don't like having suckerers on their own roots anyway.
Reply #42 of 57 posted 6 days ago by Jay-Jay
Thank You for this, Margaret!
It's a variant of using pet-bottles, like I do, but the 6 weeks of warm weather never is guaranteed over here in summer!
People might use a greenhouse to obtain that goal.
Question: Do You use 1 liter or 3 liter zip-lock bags?
Best regards and a good take-off to Christmas, Jay-Jay.
Reply #43 of 57 posted 6 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
That's fascinating Margaret thank you. Do certain types root better than others? Christopher Lloyd writes about taking cuttings 4cm long with just one node and laying them horizontally on the compost in a propagator with bottom heat. Has anyone any experience of this?
Jay-Jay I hope you enjoyed Sinterklaas Day last week.
Reply #44 of 57 posted 6 days ago by Margaret Furness
I find yellow HTs harder to strike ... which was mentioned in early Rose Annuals! Chromatella is still too hard. Ramblers are the easiest, which fits with their ability to layer themselves.
Some people doing large numbers of cuttings put them into pure kittylitter, in a broccoli (polystyrene) box - about 40 at a time.
One HRIAI member puts cuttings into gravel, with water circulating through from his fishtanks, and gets very good results very quickly. He said you have to choose the gravel to get the pH right, so it doesn't kill the fish.
I haven't tried using bottom heat.
I prefer the doggybag technique to in-ground cuttings in autumn, because there's time to try again if some fail, you can try to rescue found roses most of the year, plants can be planted out the next autumn, and there isn't the labour of digging them out of the ground eventually. Veilchenblau can become very tenacious between autumn one year and winter the next year.
The ziplock bags are labelled with dimensions, not volume. I guess they're nearer 1L than 3. Their vertical dimension limits the length of cuttings you can use.
Reply #46 of 57 posted 6 days ago by Jay-Jay
What do You mean in this context with the word tenacious regarding Veilchenblau? My English isn't that good, that I understand the quintessence.
Reply #47 of 57 posted 6 days ago by Margaret Furness
I think your multi-lingualism is impressive, and brave. I wouldn't attempt a philosophical discussion in the French I learnt at school. In Esperanto I would, because that's a language where everyone starts equal.
I meant that Veilchenblau wouldn't let go (of the ground) - it was too hard for me to dig it up.
I tried filling a ziplock bag with water. It took more than 5L, but I don't think they are designed to hold liquids. If you are going to try that technique for cuttings, I suggest you choose the bag by its measurements.
Reply #48 of 57 posted 6 days ago by Jay-Jay
Thank You for Your explanation and Your compliment.
In retrospect, I think, that that discussion was better held in private messages, not on a rose-forum.
I hope You enjoyed it.
Reply #45 of 57 posted 6 days ago by Jay-Jay
Andrew, this Year, I was a bad "boy", I think. For Sint Nicolaas didn't visit my home at all.
For Christmas I hope that Santa will bring some gifts. Maybe he will not be that harsh on me ;-)
Reply #49 of 57 posted 5 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Christopher Lloyd, The Adventurous Gardener. Published by Penguin Books. 1987 edition.
Page 22.

Unusual Ways with Rose Cuttings.

We keep learning, and it is chastening to be reminded how little we yet know...
    ...With roses, grafting is still (except for miniatures) the principle commercial practice. The entire organization of a rose nursery, its machinery, equipment and labour force, are geared to rose production by bud-grafting and it would be such an upheaval to change over to the very different technique of raising them from cuttings 9or from tissue cultures) that this is unlikely to happen in the near future. But it could depend, all the same, and especially now that it is understood that roses themselves can be propagated by the very economical method of intermodal, or single-node, cuttings.
    The traditional method for preparing a stem cutting is by making the bottom cut just below the node, the top cut (unless the tip of the shoot is left intact) above a node. Thus, at least two nodes are included in every cutting and this is potentially extravagant in plant material. It is the principle reason why cuttings have never been made much used as a commercial method for propagating roses, seeing that only one node is needed for budding.
   I first learned about the single-node way of taking rose cuttings at a conference of the International plant Propagators' Society which I attended some years ago now (1970) at Nottingham University's School of Agriculture, where Dr Elizabeth Marston had been carrying out experiments.
    To make a single-node rose cutting, all you to do is to cut with secateurs (those having a scissor action, not the anvil type) half an inch above a node and two inches or less, if necessary, below it. A surprising point arising here is the fact that exposing soft intermodal pith at the cutting's base does induce rotting. You insert your cutting in a suitable rooting medium -- say half peat and half grit -- and wait for results. If, as in the Nottingham University experiment, the cutting go under mist and are given bottom heat at 65 degrees F, they root quickly. But one conference member told me that he had succeeded by inserting them straight into open ground under Add to dictionary tunnels (such as are extensively used nowadays for forcing strawberries). Twice-daily hand-watering from a can was the only attention required.
    In the actual experiment, whose results I witnessed two years later, an entire plant of the H T rose 'Prima Ballerina' was chopped up and used for cutting material, some wood being ripe, some half-ripe and some soft. This was done on 8 August and the plant made some 130 cuttings. Two years later there were sixty nine plants, nearly all of them sturdy bushes, in the experimental plot. On getting home I forthwith tried the method out for myself. I made one seedbox-full of thirty cuttings of 'Peace'; another divided between three floribunda cultivars: twelve of 'Allotoria', thirteen of 'Europeana' and seventeen of 'Red Wonder'. They went into my cold frame with its double walls and double glazing.
    By the end of August some of the floribundas were showing roots through the bottom of the box. A point I noticed was that, although each cutting had only one leaf, it was very large and horizontally space-consuming. Where one leaf overlapped another, the lower one yellowed and decayed prematurely. I should have shortened each leaf by at least its terminal leaflet, if not also the pair behind that.
    I did not disturb the cutting that autumn, the season being well advanced. They over wintered in a ventitated cold frame and many of them retained their foliage throughout. When I dealt with them, potting them off individually at the end of March, twenty-six 'Peace' had rooted, six 'Allotria', ten 'Europeana' and nine 'Red Wonder'. Not a startling result but sufficiently encouraging. If you took your cuttings a month earlier than I did and had them well rooted by early August, they could be potted individually then, instead of waiting till the next spring.
   Internodal rose cuttings have many possibilities and implications. As private gardeners growing roses for fun, we can now ask our friends fro cutting material without plunging deep into their bushes in search of heels. Commercially this economic method of getting roses on their own roots could be a boom to the container trade at garden centres. Grafted H T and floribunda roses are stunted and uncharacteristic when their roots are confined in even quite large containers. Yet the container trade has a a tremendous outlet for the sale of roses in their flowering season, when the impulse buyer can not only see what he wants but carry it off with him on the spot. Own-rooted plants might turn out to be the answer. Little is known about the performance of different varieties when grown this way, but then singularly little is known about the performance of different varieties when grafted on different rootstocks. These rootstocks are nearly all seedlings, and every one of then genetically different from the next and thus establishes a different relationship with the scion grafted on to it. On its own roots, the internodal imponderables of the rootstock will be eliminated. And so will its suckers.
    Suckers lead me to the other relevant subject of Dr marston's experiments, which was rose propagation from root cuttings. The necessary ingredient for success in propagation by this method is that a detached piece of root shall be capable, when given its independence , of making a shoot bud. Shoots are not normally produced by stems, not by roots, so the latter capacity is no to be taken for granted.
    Roses have it, as we always knew, for how else should their rootstocks sucker, as they all too frequently do? I recently had a striking example of suckering buy rose roots in my own garden. I had planted the ultra-vigorous 'Paul's Himalayan Musk' rambler to go through a Judas tree. I had struck this rose from a cutting off one in Maurice Mason's garden, so I knew it was on its own roots. The Judas tree got blown to bits in a gale and had to go, and so did the rose, since it had lost its support. After its removal the whole area up to a distance of 16ft from where the rose had been extracted became riddled with suckers from the broken roots we had left behind. Yet until then the plant had shown no inclination or tendency to sucker at all.
    Dr Marston showed that even the more specialised and man-made H T rose can be propagated from root cuttings if the stock plant is growing on its own roots (quite big 'if'; the stock plant is only likely to be growing on its own roots if it was one you propagated from a cutting yourself). In her experiment, 2-in. long root cuttings were taken in January and laid horizontally in a peat and grit mixture. They were all thicknesses, but the thinnest produced no shoots while the thickest produced shoots prematurely, before new roots had developed to support them, and these shoots withered. (in such a case it would be wise to anticipate trouble  and make stem cuttings of these shoots while they were in good condition.)
    Rather surprisingly (to me) it was found that horizontally orientated cuttings gave better results than cuttings inserted vertically, and of course, they tax the intelligence less because there's no need to remember which is top and which is bottom. No growth  substances were used, but the cuttings were gently shaken in a polythene bag with 15 per cent Captan dust, as a protection against fungal infection.
    Some cuttings were placed in a warm greenhouse with bottom heat, and these developed quickly. Others in a cool greenhouse from which frost was only just excluded took some months to regenerate, but the final take was as good. Cuttings taken in December and January gave better results than later batches in April.   
    Not one but a number of shoots are likely to develop from a root so your young shrub might have the appearance of suckering instead of growing on the normal leg. I cannot see that this should matter. Varieties used successfully include 'Fragrant Cloud' and the repulsive but ebullient 'Prima Ballerina'.
    The young plants were potted off into 3 1/2-in. pots and developed very quickly, but the first flowers born that summer were thinor even single and not characteristic. To build up a strong plant it would be wise to not to allow flowering at this early age, but to disbud, as you would a stem cutting.
   One disadvantage in root cuttings is that you are virtually obliged to sacrifice the parent plant. You can't deprive it of all its roots and then expect to keep it as a thing of beauty and a joy forever. Probably the method has no general application, but it is none the less intriguing and open to us to try who already grow roses on their own roots.           
Reply #50 of 57 posted 5 days ago by Margaret Furness
Thank you: a lot to think about from Mr Lloyd.
Reply #51 of 57 posted 4 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Some more stuff from Lloyd.

Christopher Lloyd, The Adventurous Gardener. Published by Penguin Books. 1987 edition.
Page 90.

Roses Take Their Place.

What place, I often ask myself, should roses take in our gardens? A silly question, really, because each of us has to make up his mind about it for himself and each will reach a different conclusion, right for him, wrong for his neighbour.
    Let me be a little more aggressive. It is not a fact that roses are much over planted and feature too prominently in the majority of gardens? Even in June-July, when at the height of their glory, I think as I look at the endless succession of front gardens that line our roadsides what a horrible jarring jumble of strong colours they comprise. True, they don't have to be a jarring jungle when selected and arranged by someone with an eye for what goes with what. But still, when the flowers have gone, you're left with singularly unlovely shrubs occupying the most prominent positions.
    A garden can be, by careful mixed planting, be made to absorb a certain number of non-cooperating shrubs such as these, but not too many. It is a question of getting your proportions right. If we can train ourselves to make our roses take their place among other kinds of shrubs and with herbaceous plants, with lilies and alliums and certain other bulbs, and a few clematis, then we shall enjoy their contribution far more but we shall not be able to grow so many of them.
    There must surely be some roses that you're growing now but could do very well without. Better, in fact. What about those muscular modern hybrid tea rose bushes, for instance, with their great thick stems, huge thorns and course foliage. You must have their blooms for cutting; did I hear you say? But really, you know, they don't look much less stiff or more enduring when you've arranged them in the house. A bunch of stocks or pinks would look far more relaxed and be a great deal freer with their scent.
   The floribundas, then? You haven't the time for annual bedding and they take its place. What a pity. Because actually the notion that roses are labour-saving is a complete fallacy. I don't hold it against any plant that it makes work if it is worth it in other ways, but to pretend that it doesn't make work is another matter. I won't run through different kinds of attention that roses demand, here, but having seen to their needs, beds of floribundas are very inflexible. There they are, making the same display year after year with only their blossoms to recommend them. Now, bedding out ( as I have indicated in another chapter) gives you endless scope for change and experiment at least twice a year; three times if you're enterprising.
    If a permeant planting is de rigueur, you could include shapely and harmonious ingredients like junipers and cistuses, santolinas and yuccas (for contrast), that give pleasure for most of the time and among which a few roses would contribute with their own special ebullience in their season without hogging it all the time.
    Some gardeners, while reviling the H T and floribunda rose, go all out for the old shrub roses and themselves get bogged down. I grant their appeal; flower colour, shape and scent all work together. Colours may be bright, but there is never the crude admixture of yellow and geranium red in them that we find (a) since Pernet-Ducher introduced the blood of the bright yellow Austrian briar, Rose foetida, into the old roses, and (b) since the post-war mutation which introduced pure red geranium pigment into our roses and all the hot colours that have ensued.
    But the old shrub roses are exacting plants. They demand a deal of careful management. I remember being shown a garden devoted to this type of rose which its owner, clearly dissatisfied, as well she might have been, exclaimed that she was never again going to allow other plants among and under her roses (there were a few spindly nigellas, with an under-the-axe look about them). One has to do things for the roses, she remarked, implying that any competition was a threat to their well-being. And yet there were acres (they felt like acres, anyway) of unappetising ground among the shrubs, many of which were looking wretched, as though longing for a package holiday on the Costa Brava.
    If only, I thought for the umpteenth time, if only roses can be absorbed into our gardening, then the dog can wag its tail once more and a proper balance is restored.
    John Treasure manages then beautifully in his garden at Burford House (in the Teme Valley on the Shropshire/Worcestershire border). In the first place he knows how to prune and train them, and most need a good deal of this every year. He keeps those that inclined to make long, leggy shoots down to 3 1/2 ft at flowering time so that they are fully furnished with leaves and blossoms right to the ground. A triangle of stout chestnut spiles forms a 3 1/2-ft tall framework round a bush like the gallicas 'Duc de Guiche' and 'Hippolyte' of the bright pink damask 'Ispahan'. To this the roses' new canes are trained in a spiral, being tied in individually to a post only as often as is necessary to keep them in position. The posts and string, I may add, are of muted natural colouring, so that you only see them if you are looking for the mechanics of the job.
    Pftizer's junipers, of oblique rather than prostrate habit, are used a good deal among or in front of the roses, and I especially noticed and liked (when on a June visit) the way his 'Duc de Guiche', which has flat, double carmine flowers with an open greenish centre, had one of its canes straying 'naturally' forwards into a juniper, whereas the rest were secured behind and at a higher level to their chestnut supports.
    These mixed borders with their accent on old roses were very wide, which gives elbow room for large specimens and allows considerable planting choice. At the back a 10-ft Rosa rubrifolia has a splendidly vigorous R, turkestanica (chinensis mutabilis) to one side. It is 6 ft tall and not a bit leggy, and anyway you wouldn't have seen its legs because a group in front of the 3-ft herbaceous perennial Baptisia australis, with indigo blue, lupin-like spikes of clean colouring and outline. 'Duc de Guiche' was by the side of this and then, in front the juniper with a summer-flowering clematis threading through it. You can cut this type hard back almost to ground level annually, without an embarrassment to its supporting neighbours.
    In front of Rosa damascene 'Rose de Resht' -- bright carmine, very double and flat -- and the deep crimson 'Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallee', which is of semi-sprawling habit but in need of no support, there were plantings to give later interest of Iris pallida 'Argenteo-variegata', an Agapanthus campanulatus cv., and a pleasing perennial labiate that I once grew from Thompson & Morgan seed, Scutellaria canescens. It has 3-ft spikes of soft greyish-blue flowers.
    Cistuses are not unlike roses and I liked the juxtaposition of Cistus x purpureus, which is rosy magenta, 3 1/2 ft high, with Rosa centifolia 'De Meux', whose tiny, absolutely formal, flat double flower are only 2 in. across. They are whorled in the centre, thanks to their superabundance of petals. This is a weakfish grower, only 3 ft high. With behind it, in delightful contrast, Buddleia alternifolia 'Argentia'. so much prettier and a little less vigorous than the type-plant with plain green leaves. Silver shoots and wands of lavender blossom, at its best in June.
    Another good grouping combined the white flowers (pink in bud) of Cistus x corbariensis against a white York rose, Rosa alba, which has glaucous foliage; a stooled plant of Eucalyptus gunnii. bearing its rounded glaucous, juvenile foliage only, a huge mound behind of the purple-leaved form of Cotinus coggygria, the Venetian sumach, and an enviably large specimen of the glaucous Berberis temolaica to one side. Only a foreground apron of heathers seemed a bit of a wasted opportunity.
   With all their free-and-easy appearance, these roses at Burford House are carefully pruned and trained annually and repeatedly sprayed against fungal diseases in the growing season. The old roses need this attention just as much as modern varieties do.
    Another garden where the owners, the Allan Camerons, love roses but let them take their place with other garden flowers is at Allangrange on the Black Isle near Inverness. The mauve panicles of Campanula latifolia look well with every kind of large-growing rose, in this case in front of the soft pink Rosa alba 'Celestial'. White rugosas made a pleasing background to this same campanula, to blue delphiniums and the uncompromising scarlet Lychnis chalcedonica. It is always worth finding the right place for this.
    White (and grey) delphiniums look good with white roses, there being such a contrast in form. Here it was the vigorous double shrub rose 'Mme Hardy' behind the modern single-flowered 'White Wings' in front. I'm very fond of 'White Wings', and its purple stamens make a special feature of the flower centre, but alas that it should make such a miserable stalky plant.
    The single white Rosa x paulii is so overwhelmingly vigorous that it needs a great deal of space. Allangrange it billows in front of Hydrangea petiolaris, growing up an old tree, and there were white foxgloves all around.
    Sissinghurst Castle gardens are especially famed for their roses, but so well are they absorbed into and digested by their surroundings that when someone recently referred to their rose garden, I said, 'Where's that?' It hadn't occurred to me that the roses were thicker on the ground in one place than in another, and there is so much else of interest growing around and near them that you never get that terrible feeling, familiar to old-rose nuts, that after the middle of July the year is over.
    There's no part of my garden where roses are excluded either. We do also have a rose garden. It was designed and planted before the First World War and it is hard to think of it in any other role. But roses are a varied lot and of every age up to sixty years. And I allow other plants to interlope: violets, hyacinths, teazels, and the purple-leaved, yellow-flowered Oxalis corniculata 'Purpurea'. The tall, stemmy, purple-flowered Verbina bonariensis has introduced itself and is a happy ingredient, and around the margins where weedkillers don't reach there is a pink-and-white balsam that would take the whole place over given half a chance. Tom Wright, in his book on the gardens of Kent, Sussex and Surrey (in Batsford's Gradens of Britain series), kindly describes this as 'probably the most successful rose garden of those mentioned in this book'. Any dedicated rosarian would strenuously disagree, and I cannot win prizes from it even in our local flower show. But, within a firm, well-designed framework, it is a happy community.
    It is true, as I said at the start, that if you treat the rose as just one among many desirable garden flowers, and if you allow it to take its place with the rest, you won't have room to grow as many as if you made of them a speciality. That should be no loss, considering the range of plants that beckons to us and insists that they have comparable charms on our favours. And it is certain that our practices in the art of gardening will be greatly enriched when the rose is considered as a companion for other plants rather than as an isolate.
Reply #52 of 57 posted 4 days ago by Margaret Furness
Another gem, especially the last sentence.
Of course his comments on old roses aren't intended for a climate where Teas can flower all year round.
Reply #53 of 57 posted 3 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
and it was also written at a time (thirty years ago) when a lot of people still grew roses in the rather horrid mono-culture of the rose garden. Thankfully that's largely died out now and roses are most often grown in mixed borders and more imaginative ways, it's better for their health as much as anything.
There is another good piece by Lloyd about ripping out his old roses to plant a tropical garden, I'll post that as soon as I find the book, between my partner and my cleaner they move and hide EVERYTHING. I have time on my hands at present, in Devon, the weather is rubbish and I can't play outside.
Reply #54 of 57 posted 3 days ago by Isobel
Part of my 'Red Garden'. As you can see, I'm a lazy gardener.
Reply #55 of 57 posted 3 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
The natural looking wildness of the bed and a glimpse of the landscape beyond are beautiful.
Reply #56 of 57 posted 3 days ago by billy teabag
Apologies for the delay in replying Isobel.
It's worth giving Melville's Rose n Garden a call to see if they have 'General Gallieni' or any of the others. They would probably be more familiar with the name "Beales' Monsieur Tillier" than 'Marie Nabonnand', so mention both names.
The Perth Region of HRIA will be having both 'Marie Nabonnand' and 'Clg General MacArthur' budded this season, so let me know if you'd like one done for you.
"Camnethan Cherry Red" strikes fairly easily from cuttings, but if you prefer budded plants, a number of people in Perth have plants and can supply budwood to a Perth region nursery. Ditto 'General Gallieni' and 'Cramoisi Superieur'. Should be able to find some 'Etoile de Hollande' budwood.
I don't know anyone who grows 'Souvenir du Docteur Jamain' here - it doesn't thrive in Perth heat.
Reply #57 of 57 posted 3 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Christopher Lloyd, In My Garden. Published by Bloomsbury. Paperback edition 2010.
Page 79.

The Old Rose Garden, 1.4.93.

The rose garden at Dixter is a gem of a construction by Lutyens, made around 1912 against an old cow house or hovel, with a round, brick cattle-drinking tank as its focal point. Lutyens framed its other three sides with scalloped yew hedges. There are four beds set against these (but divided from their roots by vertical sheets of strong galvanised iron); the other six are island beds (divided by flagstone paving) two of them square, the others long but angled to points at one end. It is a restful and satisfying design.
    Intending from the outset to make a rose garden, my parents planted two pendent beds with a mixture of vigorous hybrid perpetual and Bourbon roses, such as 'Candeur Lyonaise' (which they bought with them from their first London garden: it dates from around 1905 and still has immense vigour), 'Madame Isaac Pereire' and 'Gruss an Teplitz' (a German admiral famous in the early years of the century). The other beds, again treated in pairs, were each planted with two varieties of Hybrid Tea rose. 'La Tosca' and 'Prince de Bulgaria' is one coupling I remember. It was entirely replaced by 'Madame Butterfly' in the early thirties at which time the square beds were given over to 'Shot Silk' and 'Betty Uprichard'.
    From the time the garden gradually came under my direction, mixtures of varieties became increasingly indiscriminate. I loved propagating roses from cuttings and I loved to have them on their own roots, so I would either buy one plant and thereafter take cuttings from that, or else beg cuttings from the roses I admired that friends were growing.
    It was only gradually that we came to appreciate the significance of replant disease and of how materially it affects rose. Getting rid of an old bush replacing it with plants of my own raising was only partially successful. The majority of new ones did not survive. Other made excellent bushes, following a slow start.
    Seeing that my planting methods are piecemeal and that old bushes of fifty years' standing may grow side by side with young plants newly raised from cuttings, it does not at all suit me to change the soil in between replacing bushes. On the scale of a rose society's garden, this task can be mechanised, replacing the contents and soil of entire beds all in one operation. It is still an expensive exercise, but for the sake of the rose it is still gladly undertaken.
    Not so in my garden. The rose garden is far from any other soil supply, its entrances are narrow; there is little space for manoeuvring machinery and the wholesale treatment -- out with the old, in with the new -- doesn't appeal to me anyway. Seeing that the soil is excellent for any other plant except for the rose, which has fouled its own patch, I do not see why I should be made a slave to this one flower, which occupies no greater place in my affection than any other.
    But what would suit a formally designed garden of this kind, other than roses? Some that would not be outrageously extravagant in terms of labour and outlay? Few things are impossible, but to get me going, I needed the physical and emotional backup of a similarly minded confederate. Fergus Garrett, a friend during and since his college days, is now my head gardener. We're going places and it is exciting. The site is very sheltered and very hot in summer. Last year, we tried plugging gaps left by defunct roses with cannas -- an elegant, easy and prolific one, Canna indica 'Purpurea'. It has narrow, purplish leaves, an upright habit to six or seven feet and small red flowers in considerable abundance. It revelled in the rose garden and was particular striking with a margin between it and the paths of self-sown Verbena bonariensis.
    What we shall therefore now aim for is a summer garden of voluptuous luxuriance. The garden is cut off from other areas, so you will suddenly and unexpectedly be plunged into it. As you fight your way through an over hanging jungle on either side, you progress may sometimes be entirely blocked. But there are plenty of paths and alternative routes, so you can try again along one of these. There'll be no planting plan and I have as yet only unformulated ideas of what will be included, aside from cannas, the verbena, castor-oil plants (Ricinus), perhaps dahlias, Melianthus major (of course). There are a whole lot of seeds I ordered with this project in mind but quite what they were I forget. That can wait till we have the plants ready to put out. We'll need a lot of them, but then we have a lot of seed.
    Lush-looking hardy plants can be included. John Treasure has given me a sucker off his colony of Rhus glabra 'Laciniata'. Cut to the ground annually, this shrub produces large, pinnate, elegantly dissected leaves. Beth Chatto has promised me seedling from her Paulownia (but I've bought some seed in case she forgets). In contrast to anything pinnate, that has enormous, hairy heart-shaped leaves. Foliage is bound to be on the dominating theme, because it is so much more imposing than flowers and remains in good order for several months. But I can add in an annual like the spider flower Cleome 'Helen Campbell', whose palmate leaves are as handsome as its long-flowering, terminal heads of white blossom.
    Yesterday we had a grand exhumation of the old rose bushes -- I contemplate calling this 'The Old Rose Garden'. The rending noise of huge old roots reminded me of a hyena devouring a plank of wood. Friends of up to fifty years standing, they had given me great pleasure in their time but now we're moving on. I have, for the first time being at least, left room for a chink of sentimentality. A few old rose bushes remain, including 'Candeur Lyonnaise' and 'Madame Issac'. Also 'Madge', a blush white, deliciously scented polyanthus rose, which no one seems to be offering any longer. Also, and for much the same reason, 'Florence May Morse', a commendably long-flowering, straightforwardly red floribunda rose. And we've left Rosa foliolosa, which many rose, addicts find hard to recognise as a rose at all, with its lax habit very narrow leaflets. Small, single magenta flowers is its floral contribution.
     Come and see how we're progressing in five months' time.
most recent 4 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 11 OCT by thebig-bear
Please can someone tell me when and where La Reine was rediscovered? And, not that I am casting doubt on its identity, but how do we know that the plant we have today is the original La Reine?

I haven't been able to find out anything about its rediscovery - all I know is that Graham Thomas mentions in his book "Shrub Roses of Today" ,first published in 1962, that "It is sad and inexplicable to me that how such a famous pink rose as La Reine (1842) can have disappeared. In its heyday it was in every catalogue and its portrait in every book. Perhaps it may yet be retrieved." Yet it seems to have been around for quite a while now. If anyone can enlighten me, I would be very interested to know the story.

Edit: I have just noticed in the references that the discovery was made somewhere in East Germany, but I would still like to know where and when, and the circumstances behind it.
Reply #1 of 23 posted 11 OCT by Margaret Furness
I can't tell you anything about its history in Europe. In Australia, a rose (or roses) similar to it is a survivor in old gardens and cemeteries. We've tried to work out if it's La Reine or its offspring Anna de Diesbach, because a found rose was circulated under the latter name in the 1980s, but early descriptions and pictures weren't distinct enough. I went through a stage of calling it "Anna-La Reine". It's further complicated by mix-ups between La Reine and John Hopper, apparently soon after they reached Australia. John Hopper is also a survivor, and there appears to be a form which is more scented than the usual. Now in listing the foundling collection at Renmark, I just use "La Reine family" for those whose outer petals stay curved upwards, and "John Hopper family" for those whose outer petals eventually turn down.
Reply #2 of 23 posted 12 OCT by thebig-bear
Thanks Margaret, I appreciate your answer.

I am always interested in stories about roses that are lost in one or more parts of the world, and how they can turn up in another, or how their histories can diverge in different countries.

I remember reading somewhere of two American guys supposedly finding “La Reine” in amongst a number of old varieties growing in an old cemetery in the States in the late 60’s, but I don’t know which “version” it was, or how it was corroborated other than through comparing it to old prints. A shame that no original early photos of La Reine seem to exist from the time before it was lost from sight.

Yes, I thought I had heard once before about the mix up with John Hopper in Australia. I haven’t seen “La Reine” in the flesh, but having seen John Hopper (at least in the guise for sale in this country!) and having compared it to the photos of La Reine, I can see how the mistake could have taken place, even though I still find it strange. I too thought I had seen a couple of different “John Hopper” roses just from the pics here on HMF compared to the one I saw for sale (not helped by being a very changeable rose by all accounts), and to be honest I thought that there might be two different “La Reine” in the pics on here. Some seem to have more thorns/prickles than others, and some don’t match too closely with the original drawings and paintings to my eyes, although I am happy to be proved wrong! What ever it is, it seems from what I have heard to live up to the name, even if it isn’t it’s own!

Would be interesting to know about the different forms of “Anna de Diesbach” that are out there, and how they might differ from La Reine. I personally have never seen “Anna” for sale in this country, but I could be mistaken. I like your name of “Anna La Reine”! When I was first into roses, whenever I came across this rose in a book, I was always reading it wrong, as "Anna de Diesback", which would be a rather unfortunate name wouldn't it! It always makes me smile when I come across it now.

Another reason I was asking, other than just general interest, was because I would like to use “La Reine” in my breeding work, and wanted to know if the plant we have today matches the historical fecundity of the original. Having said that, as long as it is an original H.P. from the 19th Century with good seed production, I don’t suppose the name is too important in that particular matter! I have heard good things, but what is your experience with the various “La Reine” in Australia?

From a cool but sunny UK autumn!

Kind regards, and thanks once again,

Reply #3 of 23 posted 12 OCT by thebig-bear
p.s. another thing I wanted to ask you about - I have often wonderd whether La Reine could in some way be related to Coupe d'hebe, as they seem quite similar in many ways, and both are from the Laffay stable from around the same time. Any thoughts?
Reply #4 of 23 posted 12 OCT by Nastarana
See the reference from 1974, which has 'Rose de la Reine' being rediscovered in East Germany. Be aware that Mr. Wyatt does have a certain...reputation...among American rose growers.

Vintage Gardens Book of Roses states as provenance for their plant: "Robinson, found", VGBOR, 2006, p.72.
That might possibly have been at the Korbel Winery, where Mr. Robinson seems to have discovered quite a number of roses which had been lost to commerce.
Reply #5 of 23 posted 12 OCT by thebig-bear
Thanks for that, Nastarana.

I was just wondering if the 1974 reference could be indicating that it was found in Sangerhausen then? (as that was in East Germany at the time). And if it had been rediscovered by 1974, then why does my reprint of Shrub Roses of Today from 1980, which has plenty of amendments from previous editions, not mention the rediscovery? Curiouser and curiouser!

The VGBOR reference sounds good, at least so far as an American discovery is concerned; I have been wondering all day after Margaret's message whether it is possible that there are at least three different sources for rediscovering La Reine, or multiple "La Reine"s - i.e. in East Germany for Europe, somewhere (am right in thinking California with the Korbel Winery?) in the States, and an Australian/Australaisian source. Personally, I wouldn't be too surprised if the Australian or US La Reine were the original, and the East German one, if different to the others, was a post WW2 mislabelling of something else.

I'm intrigued to hear about these discoveries by Mr Robinson. I will look at getting the VGBOR - is it a book you would recommend?

Thanks again,

Kind regards,

Reply #6 of 23 posted 12 OCT by Margaret Furness
Yes re VGBOR!
I haven't tried planting seeds from what we have, or pollinating it, but it certainly sets hips. We have it from 8 gardens, each with its own study name.
Can't help with Coupe d'Hebe, sorry, as I haven't grown it.
John Hopper is at times the brightest-coloured rose in my garden. It is taller-growing than the other one/s.
Reply #11 of 23 posted 13 OCT by thebig-bear
Thanks Margaret, those pics are great!

Edit: for what its worth, here is a photo I took of the pot label of the John Hopper that I saw was for sale last year. Unfortunately I don't seem to have taken one of the actual plant! I just wondered if it might help in any way with identification or something. It looks quite different from the La Reine that is for sale in the UK, but that doesn't say much does it?
Reply #14 of 23 posted 13 OCT by Margaret Furness
Difference in climate maybe - mine reaches 1.8m without difficulty. But Austins can get very tall here too.
Reply #7 of 23 posted 13 OCT by Nastarana
Absolutely you should acquire VGBOR. You might have to try the second hand markets. I don't think it has been reprinted since the nursery closed.
Reply #8 of 23 posted 13 OCT by Patricia Routley
Nastarana - At my desk, Wyatt has a fine reputation for his efforts to save old roses.
He edited The Complete Rosarian by Norman Young in 1971 and I have added a reference in which he says 'La Reine' has been preserved in cultivation.

I have added the Vintage Gardens Book of Roses reference.

Virginia - I have also added the majority of your references which were in Comments. You might like to check I have chosen the correct Journal of Horticulture and Cottage Gardener please.

Steve - you might like to give us the exact reference from Shrub Roses of Today (edition and page number) and we'll add that as well. Sorry, I only have The Graham Stuart Thomas Rose Book in which there is no mention of 'La Reine.

Margaret - There should be no mix-up between 'La Reine' and John Hopper'. I believe the form of the bloom is different (see my comment Oct 13, 2011 ) and the habit of the bush is different. 'John Hopper' being upright, and 'La Reine' being more shrubby. (Compare Vintage Gardens 2006 diagrams 1 and 2 on page 67.)
Reply #9 of 23 posted 13 OCT by Margaret Furness
Agreed. But John Hopper was sold as La Reine early after its arrival in Aus, and there are still people who tell me firmly that they have La Reine, and show me what I see as John Hopper.
Reply #10 of 23 posted 13 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
Wouldn't an original 'La Reine' have been in the collection at Sangerhausen?
Reply #13 of 23 posted 13 OCT by thebig-bear
Hi Andrew. I would always hope that there might have been, and if I had to plump I'd say chances were that was where the East German example came from, but who knows! No specific reference for where in East Germany has appeared yet. And even then, even if from Sangerhausen, it could be wrong, as I believe someone once told me that some of the roses lost their labels, even though the majority are what they say - however the person who told me could be misinformed.
Reply #22 of 23 posted 28 OCT by thebig-bear
When we were discussing this 2 weeks ago, I sent messages to a few nurseries, both in the UK and abroad, to see whether they knew the source of their 'La Reine' plants. I've received a reply from Peter Beales today, in which they state they cannot say for sure, but they think their plants probably originate from either Sangerhausen or the Humphry Brooke collection.

As well as the information, they thank all of us, and the HMF website for being the vital resource that it is.

I was wondering whether any of you in other parts of the world might be able to send messages to nurseries in your areas to see what they have to say, and how their answers compare. It might not tell us anything, but it might be worth a shot.
Reply #12 of 23 posted 13 OCT by thebig-bear
I'll try and find it, but searches so far seem to suggest its going to hurt my wallet!

Edit: I was meaning the book, but yes, the rose is pretty expensive too!
Reply #15 of 23 posted 14 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
Yes Steve, I know exactly what you mean. Every time I look at what roses are grown in Europe I end up buying plants like 'Erenningrung an Brod' or 'Gloire des Rosomanes', (which inexplicably aren't grown by British nurseries), at forty quid a shot!
Reply #16 of 23 posted 14 OCT by Margaret Furness
How about joining a Heritage Roses group, whose members are willing to share cuttings around. I do believe in supporting the remnant nurseries that sell old roses, but paying postage as well isn't on. I don't think any rose is worth 40 quid.
Reply #17 of 23 posted 14 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
Oh yes, I did join the Historic Roses Group at Patricia's recommendation and very interesting they are too, however they don't have any of the Q and A forums or resources found on HMF. In the future when we finally Brexit it will become more difficult and expensive to buy plants from Europe.
Reply #18 of 23 posted 14 OCT by thebig-bear
That's it exactly - and I'm particularly glad you mention Gloire des Rosomanes; why that rose, which is so ubiquitous in other countries, is not available from one, single seller in this country is really beyond me!

Edit: Hmmm...... maybe I should go into business and sell it!
Reply #19 of 23 posted 14 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
I buy a lot of roses from Trevor White Roses, they have a good range of unusual roses and are cheaper than Austin's and Beale's too.
Reply #20 of 23 posted 14 OCT by thebig-bear
Me too,....sort of! What I mean is that I haven't ordered any from them directly (but I'm thinking I will) but the plant centre at the gardens I often visit have a really good range of roses for sale, and other than English Roses, everything else they sell is from Trevor White. They are superb plants, and really good value for money. What is your experience with their service direct? I only wish their range was just a little wider.
Reply #21 of 23 posted 14 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
They are very good and the plants are good quality. I have also bought plants from the nursery at Perryhill in Hartfield, Sussex but I can only visit that on trips to see my family in Sussex 250 miles away.
Reply #23 of 23 posted 4 days ago by NikosR
I have very good experience with Trevor White's e-commerce. Very good and reliable service and all the bare root roses I have received in Greece have been first class. Unfortunately but understandably their range of warm climate roses is limited but whenever a rose I want is produced by them I prefer them to Beales.
most recent 5 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 30 JUL by Hani
Is this rose fragrant?
Reply #1 of 12 posted 30 JUL by Nastarana
I don't know about fragrant but it has a good, clear, non-muddy color. I might have to try one next year if the company in OK still offers it.
Reply #2 of 12 posted 30 JUL by Patricia Routley
I don't think it can be. I had a look at two nursery listings for it and they mentioned other attributes, but nothing about fragrance.
Reply #3 of 12 posted 3 AUG by Hani
Thanks for your replies. I asked because I recently bought a potted rose from a local plant reseller (unfortunately, roses sold locally here come unlabelled) and I'm trying to identify it. The bloom color is definitely salmon, the blooms are borne in clusters (so I thought probably a floribunda), petal count is 50+, bloom size is about 2-3 inches in diameter (I read that it's normal for blooms to be smaller in hot climates), and I would describe the fragrance intensity as moderate. The bush is on the short side, about a foot tall, and the leaves don't seem small enough to be a miniature. One of the candidates just by looking at the pictures online was Adobe Sunrise. But if its fragrance isn't mentioned in catalogs then I'll have to eliminate Adobe Sunrise from my list of candidates.
Reply #4 of 12 posted 3 AUG by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Nice pictures !! Since I always shop for glossy-foliage, I notice that Abode Sunrise has ROUNDER & glossier & shinier foliage than your pictures. But leaves do become glossier if fed alkaline minerals, so the shape of the leaves is the best guideline. And the height of the bush is another good guideline.
Reply #5 of 12 posted 3 AUG by Hani
Thanks for the tips about identification! Will definitely take note of the leaves when I look at candidates. And also take a second look at my plant's leaves. Since my plant is relatively young, I'll have to wait and see how tall it gets as it gets older.

Also thanks for the advice about how to make the leaves glossy! I have a (stupid) question though... what kind of fertilizers would have alkaline minerals? Does vermicompost have alkaline minerals?
Reply #6 of 12 posted 3 AUG by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Hani: It's a very smart question, alkaline minerals are in rocks, pea-pebbles, and esp. heavy clay. Worm-casting is rich in humus (organic matter) which chelates well to trace-elements required by roses, such as iron, zinc, copper, manganese, etc. My most healthy roses were when I topped with COMPOSTED horse manure. Worm-casting is even better than horse manure (has medications & salty-urine). From the web:
"Vermicomposting, or vermiculture, enlists a small army of worms to turn organic plant wastes (food parings, rinds, peels and lawn clippings, for instance) into rich plant food, known as "worm castings."

The anti-fungal trace-elements of zinc, copper, and boron need ORGANIC matter to chelate to, same with iron. So worm-casting help roses with trace-elements to be healthy. But for the glossy-shine on leaves, any hard-minerals in the soil will do. One time I soaked colorful pea-pebbles in acidic rain water, and after 1 week of watering, leaves went from dull to shiny & glossy. Same with topping with my alkaline clay (rich in minerals).
Reply #7 of 12 posted 4 AUG by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Your blooms look like 'Soleil d'Or' which is a smaller rose with strong scent, plus dull foliage like your leaves. 'Soleil d'Or' is known to thrive in dry & hot climate & alkaline clay.
Reply #10 of 12 posted 5 AUG by Hani
Thanks for the suggestion! Soleil d'Or seems a very interesting rose. Though I would worry if it is Soleil d'Or since I live in the tropics where there isn't even a pronounced dry season (basically the two seasons are wet and wetter :p), so it might just die from fungal diseases. Actually I think it might be Cimarosa (, leaf shape looks similar, leaf edge is reddish when young, flower color is orange-pink, bloom form is "old-fashioned", is fragrant, bush is short, and it was introduced long enough ago that it would find its way in some random nursery in rural Philippines somehow. But of course, I can't be 100% sure until I see an actual labelled Cimarosa growing here.
Reply #8 of 12 posted 4 AUG by Nastarana
Any chance it could be 'Spartan'?

Short bush and fragrance both sound like 'Spartan', also the glossy foliage. OTOH, 1950s floribundas rarely show up any more in mass market pots or body bags, and some of the pix show a pinker cast. 'Spartan for me was more orange than pink and very double.
Reply #9 of 12 posted 4 AUG by Patricia Routley
I don't believe it is 'Spartan' which for me, has foliage of a blue-ish tint, and rounded petals. The pointed tipped petals in Hani's photos are reminiscent of some miniatures and I would guess, from the height that it may be a mini-flora.
Reply #11 of 12 posted 5 AUG by Hani
Thanks for the suggestions! The flower color in my plant is lighter in color than Spartan's. At first I also thought my plant might be a miniature since it's on the short side, but the leaves aren't small like I see in my miniatures. Or are there big-leaf miniatures? If so, I'll have to check the miniatures. I haven't been growing roses for long (just started a few months ago, so I have lots to learn), so I don't really know. I think my rose might be Cimarosa (, the picture and description are similar to my rose's. But of course I can't be 100% sure until I see an actual labelled Cimarosa growing hereabouts to compare.
Reply #12 of 12 posted 5 days ago by Pat Wallace zone 5a Illinois
Hani, If your rose is young it could also be the Kordes floribunda Jolie.
PhotoDiscussion id : 106-794
most recent 12 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 14 days ago by AquaEyes
'La Ville de Bruxelles' does not have red-centered stipules. Additionally, the bloom color and form don't match. I'd guess that this is some Hybrid China, i.e. something along the lines of what is currently grown as 'Belle de Crecy' -- probably not that rose specifically, but something like it.


Reply #1 of 4 posted 13 days ago by Nastarana
More than one impostor has over the last two decades been sold in the USA as 'Ville de Bruxelles'.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 13 days ago by AquaEyes
Yes, and the one I often see -- including possibly among the photos here -- is the repeat-blooming one that either strongly resembles or actually is the same as what's going around as 'Comte de Chambord' -- which is, according to some, actually 'Mme Boll'.

But this is a new one. I think, since it was taken in a public garden, mislabeling is more to blame than that this is a new imposter.


Reply #3 of 4 posted 13 days ago by Nastarana
The one I bought turned out to be a Damask Perpetual which was short, repeat blooming and whose flowers were smaller and more purple than those of 'Mme. Boll'. I think it might have been 'Rose du Roi'.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 12 days ago by vincen20
Mea culpa. This photo is 'Belle de Crecy' and not ‘La Ville de Bruxelles.’ Labels tend to migrate in our garden from time to time and these two rose plantings are side by side. I checked on these plantings today. The individual plants are tagged correctly but their interpretative labels were transposed. I returned the labels to their rightful place and all is beautiful and righteous now. Thanks for catching this!
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