HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent today SHOW ALL
Initial post 7 DEC by HubertG
I'm hoping one of the tea ladies can help with this rose. It is planted in the Barbara May Rose Garden at Rookwood Cemetery in Sydney, Australia, so I assume it's a foundling that has been renamed, but I'd like to know what name it has been given so I can look at more photos of it. It appears to be an intermediate between a Tea and a China, bright dark red, and velvety (my photographs don't pick this quality up that well). I've been looking at my photos and the early photos and illustrations of 'Princesse de Sagan' and seeing similarities, I am wondering if they could be the same.
Reply #1 of 15 posted 7 DEC by Jay-Jay
Maybe better photographing it in the morning- or evening light or on a cloudy day. Better red colors and less UV.
Reply #2 of 15 posted 7 DEC by HubertG
I agree. It fact I hadn't planned a visit here at all and was just nearby and decided to drop in and it was about noon. I was using my phone to photograph the rose, and dark or bright reds are always difficult to capture accurately with it. None of the roses were labelled. I'm really curious about this one. This photo captures the velvet a bit better but is out of focus.
Reply #3 of 15 posted 7 DEC by Jay-Jay
It looks (as if) without prickles.
Reply #4 of 15 posted 7 DEC by HubertG
It did have thorns, but wasn't overly thorny. You can see a couple on the branch at the top right here.
Reply #5 of 15 posted 7 DEC by Margaret Furness
Billy Teabag is off air for while.
The garden is looked after by the Sydney branch of Heritage Roses in Australia. I'll send a contact email address via pm.
I don't know if they planted "Camnethan Cherry-red" there. The plant given the study name was collected in Victoria.
To quote (from memory) the Indian Rose Journal: Plants in public gardens should be labelled, as the public like to know what they're stealing.
Reply #6 of 15 posted 7 DEC by Jay-Jay
Reply #7 of 15 posted 7 DEC by HubertG
I have grown "Camnethan Cherry Red" before and my impression was they weren't the same rose.
And I can't believe I forgot to smell it, although simply standing near it I didn't detect a perfume.
Reply #8 of 15 posted 9 DEC by Patricia Routley
If you were able to find out, I would love to know its “study name” HubertG
Reply #9 of 15 posted 9 DEC by HubertG
I sent a message to the lady who should know. I'll post its study name as soon as I find out.
Reply #10 of 15 posted 11 DEC by Patricia Routley
Take a look at the file "J. Datson" (syn :Frank Veal"). Sorry I am not able to search for more info for a couple of days but will get back to it and add whatever I find.
Reply #11 of 15 posted 11 DEC by Margaret Furness
"J Datson" at Renmark is low-growing, pretty much "just another China". I think the flowers are smaller than in your photos.
Reply #13 of 15 posted 11 DEC by HubertG
Just regarding the possibility of this rose being 'Princesse de Sagan':-
There are a few more recently posted early American catalogue photos of PdS (and bear in mind that they MAY not be accurate) which are a bit at odds with the rather shaggy open flowers in the Henry Moon illustration. However looking at this rose at Rookwood, the opening flowers are rather cupped, with a rounded outline that tends to match these photos. The petals only seem to reflex when they are more open. The drawing in the Journal des Roses actually bears a fair resemblance to some of these Rookwood blooms, but the most notable point about this illustration for me is that the bud receptacles are a close match for our rose, as are the spacing and poise of the loose clusters. The bud shown in the Geroge H. Mellem 1906 drawing (which looks to me like it's done from a photo) shows a very similar bud shape. The notable point for me about the Moon painting is that the terminal leaflet is rather long and attenuated (compare to the KAV leaves alongside) and this does match the Rookwood rose (see my 4th photo for a fair example).
Here's another photo of an opening bloom still with its rounded outline. There are about 5 rows of petals and you can just see the stamens. It's interesting that one of the American catalogues call PdS "The crimson Brabant" and I wonder if it is because of this cup shape and it's freedom of bloom.
Reply #12 of 15 posted 11 DEC by HubertG
Thanks Patricia, I had a quick look at "J. Datson" which seems to be very similar to 'Cramoisi Superieur'.
The rose I photographed had flowers too large to be a China like that, with blooms maybe 2 1/2" to 3" across (just guessing from memory). Small to medium for a tea but too large for the classic red china class. There were in fact a couple of typical red Chinas in that Rookwood garden, one was small and barely more than single with a white eye from memory.
Edit: I just saw your post, Margaret, yes I agree with you. Here's another photo of the mystery rose.
Reply #14 of 15 posted 11 DEC by Margaret Furness
The nearly-single China with a white eye has the study name "Jane Vaughn". I no longer have it.
Reply #15 of 15 posted today by HubertG
After some communications it seems this mystery red rose is thought to be 'Lady Brisbane'/'Cramoisi Superieur'.

To be honest, I'm not totally convinced that this is right. I grew a 'Cramoisi Superieur' close to 18 years ago. I had it and 'Semperflorens' which I still have. These two roses were very close in several ways but 'Cramoisi Superieur' had slightly larger flowers, a bit more double, but a little lighter in colour than 'Semperflorens'. 'CS' though couldn't have been mistaken for anything other than a China, and this rose at Rookwood was allied to the Chinas but seemed to have Tea characteristics as well.
I'll definitely go back sometime to look at it again. Maybe it is 'Lady Brisbane' and this isn't actually identical to 'CS'. I just feel, having grown 'CS' that I would have recognised this Rookwood rose as that variety if they had been the same. If I remember correctly my old 'CS' also had a substantial amount of white at the petal bases, something I didn't observe at Rookwood.
most recent yesterday SHOW ALL
Initial post 18 NOV by Margaret Furness
A couple of visiting rosarians from the US don't think "B L Sydney Linton" is Paul Neyron. Wrong colour, opens too flat. I note too that Paul Neyron has descendants as seed parent, but I haven't seen viable hips on my "B L S L".
Reply #1 of 15 posted 18 NOV by billy teabag
Then they are in accord with Hillary who has always dismissed PN as an identity.
Reply #2 of 15 posted 18 NOV by Patricia Routley
Has Hillary publicised her concerns? - I might have missed a reference.
Reply #3 of 15 posted 19 NOV by billy teabag
No - you haven't missed a reference Patricia. Hillary doesn't have a plant of "B.L. Sydney Linton" and I'm referring to informal conversations we've had standing next to my plant.
Reply #4 of 15 posted 19 NOV by Patricia Routley
Margaret – Seven seed descendants from 1869-2018. That is not a lot. I haven’t seen any hips at all (that I recall) on my HP’s. ‘Paul Neyron’ was mentioned as having a flat form in a 1936 reference.

Billy – thank you. My “Sydney Linton” died by 2015. I sent you up an own-root plant in Nov 5, 2004 and presumably this is the one you are now growing. My ‘Paul Neyron’ (currently quite sick) came from Zephyr Brook 1-5 and undoubtedly Hillary will know this rose well. In peak busy season here, I am most unwilling to relook at “Sydney Linton” as we discussed it ad infinitum in 2003-2006. It is probably not right that “Sydney Linton” and Paul Neyron’ are in the same file, but it would take a lot of untangling to separate them.
Reply #5 of 15 posted 19 NOV by billy teabag
Yes - you are right - The "B.L. Sydney Linton" growing here is the one you sent up (is it that long ago?)
HPs are not really happy here. I think they are more comfortable in places where they get at least a bit of frost in the winter and not so much heat in the summer, so it has always looked a bit tenuous. A very modest plant and the amount of spent wood equalling the amount of new wood each year. But when it blooms in a mild spring, it is a most lovely thing and I will always remember David Ruston's magnificent and deceptively simple arrangement of it in its home town at the Hay Conference in 2003.
'Dr Hogg' is the only other HP that has survived here. Even' Frau Karl Druschki' lost the will to keep trying last year.
Reply #6 of 15 posted 7 days ago by petera
I grow both cultivars and BL Sydney Linton is a far superior garden rose to Paul Neyron. HPs tend to grow well in my climate (Mount Macedon Victoria). We have brutal frosts as you alluded to in an earlier posting but dry summers with cool nights.

BLSL has the normal complement of prickles while the stems of PN are almost unarmed. BLSL is MUCH more disease resistant while PN gets absolutely every rose disease known and probably measles, mumps and cat flu as well. BLSL is a better-formed, branching plant while PN is long and leggy with flimsy stems. My own-root BLSL also has a tendency to sucker but I have never observed PN to do that even though all my plants have had their bud unions well buried. BLSL repeats better but that may be due to its its much better health and vigour. I prune it to about 40 cm and it gets up to 1.5-2m in the season.

I know it would be work to separate the pages on HMF but listing BLSL incorrectly as a synonym of PN discourages people from growing it, and a really good HP is likely to get lost again.
Reply #7 of 15 posted 7 days ago by Patricia Routley
Thanks for your reply petera. This is the only way to proceed in the identification of old roses, and that is contributing your observations.
It would be valuable if you could contribute photos of both your whole bushes, the base of both bushes, and the prickles of both bushes.
Both my “Bishop’s Lodge Sydney Linton” and the ‘Paul Neyron’ that was growing almost alongside, are now dead so I am no longer able to contribute. I will separate “BLSL” and ‘PN’ and if members Eric Timewell, Hmfusr, Margaret Furness, Rockhill, Ozoldroser, Billy teabag, Luckyluke and myself could move their photos, that would help.
Reply #8 of 15 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
There's a detailed early photograph of Paul Néron/Neyron by the American photographer Edwin Hale Lincoln here on this site:

Unfortunately the institution that conserves the photos has not given permission to have them displayed here. This particular photo shows good details of the leaves, stem and prickles.
Reply #9 of 15 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
That's an interesting photograph HubertG. I note there is no date on the plate of this 1869 rose, but the photographer died in 1938. The photographed leaves look quite long and oval-ish, rather than round-ish.
I am sure I never saw those prickles on the stem of my (now died) 'Paul Neyron'. I think mine just had bristles.
Reply #10 of 15 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
I'm not sure of the photograph's date either but my guess is around 1900. They are on glass plates which were generally superceded in the early twentieth century, and that series of (florist?) rose photographs include one of 'Mrs. Pierpont Morgan' which was introduced in 1896.
Reply #11 of 15 posted 2 days ago by Ozoldroser
A wonderful set of rose photographs on this link. Thank you Hubert.
Reply #12 of 15 posted yesterday by HubertG
Some of the varieties aren't even labelled by the institution even though the rose names are written on the plates. I should link them all here. They still have some great photos of 'Mme. Hoste' listed as "Madame Histe" lol. There are some good photos of species roses too.
Reply #13 of 15 posted yesterday by Patricia Routley
If we can’t reproduce them here, perhaps a reference under each rose, giving the link?
Reply #14 of 15 posted yesterday by HubertG
As a comment, or on the description tab?
Perhaps the description page would make it more prominent.
Reply #15 of 15 posted yesterday by Patricia Routley
True. But anyone who is really serious about searching for information, will read the references.
I know you can add refs - and I am on the run here lately. Apologies.
most recent 3 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 30 AUG by Andrew from Dolton
Earlier this summer I sowed a few open pollenated seeds from Rosa chinensis 'Minima', five germinated and I pricked out the seedlings in a 1.5LT pot. Four are the normal pale pink whilst one is much darker. The mother plant was right next to 'Baby Faurax', I wonder if they might have cross pollenated?
Reply #1 of 4 posted 30 AUG by HubertG
It could just be a random gene combination from being self pollinated. They are cute though.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 30 AUG by Andrew from Dolton
Thanks HerbertG. The leaves are slightly darker than the others and when I've grown this rose from seed before the seedlings have been fairly consistent, all the same pale pink colour as 'Old Blush' and 'Pompom de Paris, climbing'. I'll give the pale seedlings away and grow the dark one on and see what it grows like.
Reply #3 of 4 posted 30 AUG by HubertG
It certainly could be a Baby Faurax pollination. Anything can happen. I'd grow it on and just observe if there are any other similarities.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 3 days ago by AquaEyes
Check if there are fringed stipules on the darker one, which would indicate Multiflora ancestry from 'Baby Faurax' pollen.


most recent 5 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 1 JAN by Patricia Routley
Is "Eric's Yellow 11" familiar to anybody?
The only rose I know of that hangs on to its petals like this is 'Irene Churruca' syn 'Golden Melody', but this rose is far too yellow for that.
Reply #1 of 5 posted 5 days ago by rose marsh
Could Eric's Yellow be Speks YellowI know the introduction date is later than the 40's but......Rose M
Reply #2 of 5 posted 5 days ago by HubertG
Maybe "Phyllis Gold' from 1935 could be a possibility.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 5 days ago by Patricia Routley
The patent for ‘Spek’s Yellow’ says “distinctive straight thorns”.
The 1936 reference for ‘Phyllis Gold’ (presumably coming from Wheatcroft Bros.) says “black thorns”. Whether they mean black thorns on the new or old wood, I don’t know. I will tackle the old rose books this afternoon and add any interesting references I find. Many thanks for your thoughts HubertG. They are appreciated.
Reply #4 of 5 posted 5 days ago by HubertG
You're welcome, Patricia,
I actually saw that reference to black thorns after I had posted my 'Phyllis Gold' comment. Then of course I went scrutinising the photos of "Eric's Yellow 11" for thorns but I actually couldn't find any. I don't know if this is just chance - that there aren't any thorns in the photos - or if it's in fact a relatively thornless rose. Being thornless might be an extra clue.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 5 days ago by Patricia Routley
It certainly might. I have to lift the plastic bag from the cuttings this morning to check for moisture, so if I see any thorns at all, I’ll report back.
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