HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
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Initial post 20 MAY by HubertG
I hope this illustrates that those roses that don't usually set hips can do so under certain conditions. In February this year I noticed a bloom of 'White Maman Cochet' that had been half-eaten away by some pest, partly exposing a group of normal looking pistils. I removed the rest of the petals and I took the opportunity to pollinate it using 'Papa Gontier' because it was fresh on hand. Of course I had no idea if it had already been pollinated by an insect before I got to it. The hip readily swelled and then actually split but continued to develop on the bush. Today (20th May 2018) I noticed that the hip had been nibbled by some pest so, even though it didn't appear ripe, I cut it off to avoid losing it all together. There were many seeds inside, some very small but I'll plant them all to see what comes up. This is the only hip I've ever seen on my 'White Maman Cochet'.
Reply #1 of 7 posted 20 MAY by Patricia Routley
Divide them into three, and
1. put one third in a paper towel with a few drops of water, and then into a plastic-wrap bundle in the crisper for four weeks.
2. plant one third now in a tray of seed raising mix
3. I don't know. Any suggestions from anybody?
Reply #2 of 7 posted 21 MAY by HubertG
I've just put them in a snap-lock bag in the fridge for now. I don't really know if tea rose seeds benefit from cold treatment. Does anyone else know? Does this only benefit European roses? I figure it can't hurt anyway. I'll plant half of them next weekend in any case.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 1 JUN by HubertG
I didn't know where to put this, so I thought I'd just add it on here. It's a reference to a yellow sport of 'White Maman Cochet' but I don't know if it was ever introduced into commerce.

From 'Rosen-Zeitung' 1910, page 13

"Gelber Maman Cochet - Sport
Herr Pfarrexpositus Kromer besitzt seit 2-3 Jahren einen schön gelben Sport der weissen Maman Cochet. Die mir Ende November gesandten Blumen waren scwefelgelb. P.L."

My translation: (and not exactly sure how 'Pfarrexpositus' should translate, but it's a Church position).

Yellow Maman Cochet - Sport
Pastor Kromer has in his possession for the last 2-3 years a beautiful yellow sport of 'White Maman Cochet'. Those flowers sent to me at the end of November were sulphur-yellow.
Reply #4 of 7 posted 1 JUN by Patricia Routley
I will respond further in 'Pastor Kromer's Yellow Sport of White Maman Cochet'.
Reply #5 of 7 posted yesterday by HubertG
Just a follow-up on the hip from my 'White Maman Cochet' - today I noticed the first seedling had germinated from the seeds I'd planted. At least it shows that the seeds are viable, especially since they were all rather small. I hope it survives and I get something worthwhile keeping.
Reply #6 of 7 posted yesterday by Margaret Furness
Good luck!
Reply #7 of 7 posted yesterday by HubertG
Thanks, I'm hoping it might be somewhat mildew-resistant especially if the pollen parent is 'Papa Gontier', so it might have a good chance to survive its first few weeks.
most recent yesterday HIDE POSTS
Initial post 2 days ago by HubertG
This is another rose I saw in the Barbara May Garden at Rookwood cemetery in Sydney. Again I assume it is a foundling that has been renamed. It looks to be a Tea, not a large flower but the bud is striking for its orange colour splashed with a bit of pink. The open flower seemed to have more pink. It seemed to be semi-double and wasn't a very large bush.
Unfortunately the second photo here isn't a great shot and probably also over-emphasises the pink.
I have messaged the lady who should know its study name, but in the meantime are there any guesses about a possible identification from others? And it isn't 'Comtesse du Cayla' as I'm familiar with that rose.
Reply #1 of 2 posted yesterday by Margaret Furness
Mrs Arthur Robert Waddell was called a tea for a while in the early days of HRIA. I can't see the stem very clearly.
Reply #2 of 2 posted yesterday by HubertG
Quite possibly. Unfortunately It wasn't flowering much and I don't have more good photos. From memory the blooms nodded. I definitely will be going back sometime to take more photos of this and that red Tea.
most recent 2 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 6 days ago by HubertG
I'm hoping one of the tea ladies can help with this rose. It is planted in the Barbara May Rose Garden at Rookwood Cemetery in Sydney, Australia, so I assume it's a foundling that has been renamed, but I'd like to know what name it has been given so I can look at more photos of it. It appears to be an intermediate between a Tea and a China, bright dark red, and velvety (my photographs don't pick this quality up that well). I've been looking at my photos and the early photos and illustrations of 'Princesse de Sagan' and seeing similarities, I am wondering if they could be the same.
Reply #1 of 14 posted 6 days ago by Jay-Jay
Maybe better photographing it in the morning- or evening light or on a cloudy day. Better red colors and less UV.
Reply #2 of 14 posted 6 days ago by HubertG
I agree. It fact I hadn't planned a visit here at all and was just nearby and decided to drop in and it was about noon. I was using my phone to photograph the rose, and dark or bright reds are always difficult to capture accurately with it. None of the roses were labelled. I'm really curious about this one. This photo captures the velvet a bit better but is out of focus.
Reply #3 of 14 posted 6 days ago by Jay-Jay
It looks (as if) without prickles.
Reply #4 of 14 posted 6 days ago by HubertG
It did have thorns, but wasn't overly thorny. You can see a couple on the branch at the top right here.
Reply #5 of 14 posted 6 days ago by Margaret Furness
Billy Teabag is off air for while.
The garden is looked after by the Sydney branch of Heritage Roses in Australia. I'll send a contact email address via pm.
I don't know if they planted "Camnethan Cherry-red" there. The plant given the study name was collected in Victoria.
To quote (from memory) the Indian Rose Journal: Plants in public gardens should be labelled, as the public like to know what they're stealing.
Reply #6 of 14 posted 6 days ago by Jay-Jay
Reply #7 of 14 posted 6 days ago by HubertG
I have grown "Camnethan Cherry Red" before and my impression was they weren't the same rose.
And I can't believe I forgot to smell it, although simply standing near it I didn't detect a perfume.
Reply #8 of 14 posted 4 days ago by Patricia Routley
If you were able to find out, I would love to know its “study name” HubertG
Reply #9 of 14 posted 4 days ago by HubertG
I sent a message to the lady who should know. I'll post its study name as soon as I find out.
Reply #10 of 14 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
Take a look at the file "J. Datson" (syn :Frank Veal"). Sorry I am not able to search for more info for a couple of days but will get back to it and add whatever I find.
Reply #11 of 14 posted 2 days ago by Margaret Furness
"J Datson" at Renmark is low-growing, pretty much "just another China". I think the flowers are smaller than in your photos.
Reply #13 of 14 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
Just regarding the possibility of this rose being 'Princesse de Sagan':-
There are a few more recently posted early American catalogue photos of PdS (and bear in mind that they MAY not be accurate) which are a bit at odds with the rather shaggy open flowers in the Henry Moon illustration. However looking at this rose at Rookwood, the opening flowers are rather cupped, with a rounded outline that tends to match these photos. The petals only seem to reflex when they are more open. The drawing in the Journal des Roses actually bears a fair resemblance to some of these Rookwood blooms, but the most notable point about this illustration for me is that the bud receptacles are a close match for our rose, as are the spacing and poise of the loose clusters. The bud shown in the Geroge H. Mellem 1906 drawing (which looks to me like it's done from a photo) shows a very similar bud shape. The notable point for me about the Moon painting is that the terminal leaflet is rather long and attenuated (compare to the KAV leaves alongside) and this does match the Rookwood rose (see my 4th photo for a fair example).
Here's another photo of an opening bloom still with its rounded outline. There are about 5 rows of petals and you can just see the stamens. It's interesting that one of the American catalogues call PdS "The crimson Brabant" and I wonder if it is because of this cup shape and it's freedom of bloom.
Reply #12 of 14 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
Thanks Patricia, I had a quick look at "J. Datson" which seems to be very similar to 'Cramoisi Superieur'.
The rose I photographed had flowers too large to be a China like that, with blooms maybe 2 1/2" to 3" across (just guessing from memory). Small to medium for a tea but too large for the classic red china class. There were in fact a couple of typical red Chinas in that Rookwood garden, one was small and barely more than single with a white eye from memory.
Edit: I just saw your post, Margaret, yes I agree with you. Here's another photo of the mystery rose.
Reply #14 of 14 posted 2 days ago by Margaret Furness
The nearly-single China with a white eye has the study name "Jane Vaughn". I no longer have it.
most recent 3 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 3 days ago by HubertG
Rose Listing Omission

Dr. John Laconte

From the Cox Seed co. catalogue for 1907, page 64:
Dr. John Laconte (T.) Color rich golden yellow shaded with copper; long pointed buds; very full in bloom; plant strong and vigorous. A wonderfully beautiful blended sort. Raised by Mr E. Gill, Berkeley, Cal.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 3 days ago by Patricia Routley
‘Dr. John Laconte’ added. Thanks HubertG
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