HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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billy teabag 
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Would someone who grows "Kombacy Marianne" please comment on whether they have ever seen hips on it.
I note that Mme De Watteville has three descendants, as seed parent.
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#1 of 14 posted
3 DEC 21 by
HubertG
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I've only had my cutting-grown plant for a short time and it's still in a pot but I was very curious to know whether it would set hips and so have looked carefully for stigma and stamen etc in most of its flowers. Generally they weren't formed but in one flower there were several normal-looking stigma and I pollinated them using pollen at hand. It seemed to take and swell quite quickly as if a normal hip would develop, but unfortunately recent wet weather caused it to start browning and it rotted off. In my limited experience, my speculation is that hips won't set naturally very often but it's quite possible that careful artificial fertilisation might produce some hips. I'd be curious to know others' experience too.
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I don’t think I have ever seen a hip, but can’t guarantee that. I like to deadhead this plant and will tie a bit of ribbon to it to alert me to watch for anything.
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Thank you.
Mme de Watteville also has a descendant listed, as pollen parent.
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#4 of 14 posted
5 AUG by
HubertG
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I noticed that my winter flowers this year had relatively normal looking stigma and there seems to be a hip developing on one at the moment, I'd say about two months old and it's rather oval-shaped.
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For the next edition of the Mystery Roses booklet (which will only be on-line), I'm asking those who grow any of them to let me know if they're seed-fertile. I don't know whether a hip set in winter will ever ripen. Anyway, if the hip looks like it will persist, I'd love a photo of it, please.
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#6 of 14 posted
8 AUG by
HubertG
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Margaret, here's the hip on my plant. It isn't large; just 13mm across and about 20mm long. I suspect that there is a seed or two in there otherwise it would not have remained on the plant, which is still a young cutting-grown plant in a pot. If it ripens or falls off I'll let you know what it contains. Please feel free to use the photo, Margaret, if you think it's worthwhile.
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Thank you! I'll be interested to see if anything comes of it.
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You are a hip-whisperer HubertG! I have checked thousands of spent blooms on our plant over the years and have yet to find anything that didn't dry up and drop off. Yours look promising.
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#9 of 14 posted
12 AUG by
jedmar
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Reassigned your two hip photos to "Kombacy Marianne"
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#10 of 14 posted
12 AUG by
HubertG
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Thank you billy teabag and jedmar. Nothing may come of the hip but the fact that it has stayed on for this long is encouraging. I noticed yesterday on my plant five new shoots growing from the abscission layer from where an old flower stem fell off. I did think it was interesting enough to post a photo of it, so I'll try to do that tomorrow.
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Did you get any seeds from the hip?
Margaret
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#12 of 14 posted
3 days ago by
HubertG
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Margaret, sorry I forgot to follow up on this. In short, no, there were no seeds in the hip. It started to blacken prematurely and there was nothing inside that even approached looking like seeds. I was a little disappointed because I got my hopes up. I just posted a couple of photos, for what it's worth.
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Thank you.
And Mme de Watteville has three offspring listed, as seed parent. Hmmm.
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#14 of 14 posted
3 days ago by
HubertG
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Maybe only two offspring as a seed parent if the 1911 'The Garden' reference to 'Else Schüle' being a sport of 'Mme. de Watteville' is correct. I wouldn't doubt that under ideal conditions "Kombacy Marianne" might set a few hips with a few seeds. I think the relative lack of offspring of 'Mme. de Watteville' supports that theory that "Kombacy Marianne" is that rose.
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The rose with semi-double blooms and leaflets that turn up into a taco shape seen in many of these photos can also be seen labelled 'Duke of York' and 'Papillon', and in the early 1980s, budwood of this rose was sent out from the Sangerhausen rosarium labelled 'Mme Charles', so it's in some gardens under that name as well.
It has very distinctive foliage.
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#1 of 1 posted
27 FEB by
jedmar
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Thank you, Billy, Added a note.
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Initial post
10 JAN 21 by
petera
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I can't see any consistent difference between "Grandma Pfeilers" and 'Laurent Carle'. I think they are the same rose. I have uploaded a bunch of pictures comparing buds, leaves and prickles in my garden. The colour of the prickles differs but they vary between stems of different vigour and age on the same plant. Both plants are on John N's multiflora root stock but 'Laurent Carle' has been in the ground for about 4 years while this is only the second growing season for "Grandma Pfeilers". Despite that GP is almost as large a plant under very similar growing conditions.
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Gratitude to you for doing this close comparison work and sharing your findings petera.
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#2 of 12 posted
11 JAN 21 by
petera
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Billy,
Are there any other characteristics you think I should check?
Peter
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Are the stamen filaments and anthers basically the same colours in both your roses? Do the innards match up? Apart from that, I can't think of anything you haven't covered well in words or images - good photos of all the useful features to compare.
That extravagant inflorescence in your photo is marvellous!
It is on my wish list - there's no substitute for actually growing the roses - watching them over the seasons and handling them, watching for seasonal similarities/differences, hip production, disease resistance etc.
Thanks for the chance to get to know this rose in advance.
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#4 of 12 posted
15 JAN 21 by
petera
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I am going to have to back track on my opinion that this is Lauren Carle. The latest flush of flowers on my GP in mid-January are mid pink, but those on Lauren Carle haven't changed from their usual cerise red. I am totally confused again as the plants are indistinguishable vegetatively and the spring flowers were all the same colour. The warm weather has only just started here and the LC flowers were about a week ahead of those on GP so they may have not experienced the environmental trigger that caused the change. I will have to check what subsequent flushes do.Sometimes I hate roses.
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I can relate to that.
Have pairs of roses that have been growing together here for what you’d think would be long enough to know whether they are the same or different but I continue to vacillate.
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PeterA, what are the canes like on your bush?
Do the petals burn in heat?
When would you say was its best season? Early or late... winter, spring, summer or autumn?
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#7 of 12 posted
14 FEB by
petera
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Patricia,
GP and LC are vegetatively identical and usually the flowers are the same colour, but sometimes the flowers on GP can be a bit paler, depending on the weather. I think both are just different clones of LC that have diverged slightly, which one is closer to the original is anyone's guess. Flowers of both clones burn a bit in hot weather but not as badly as some of the darker reds. It was 37C yesterday with a screaming north-westerly and the flowers were still there but singed around the edges. My GP continues to be a bit more vigorous but both are good performers in the garden and repeat rapidly throughout the growing season, better than a lot of moderns. There isn't a particular season when they are best. I can photograph the stems for you tomorrow. Moderately prickly with largish prickles. What particular characteristics were you interested in?
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Just can’t get Red Radiance (hybrid tea, Gude 1916) characteristics out of my mind.
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We can't even assess relationship, since the parentage of Laurent Carle is unnamed seedling x unnamed seedling. But if you did a blindfold sniff test of a bloom each of "Grandma Pfeiler's" and Red Radiance, you would have no doubt that they were different.
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#10 of 12 posted
15 FEB by
petera
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I have uploaded pictures of stems of "Grandma Pfeiler's" and Laurent Carle. GP at left and centre and LC on the right. All were taken today in my garden. Short flowering stems are generally prickle-free on both clones.
I don't currently grow Red Radiance but I think it has the same ball of petals in the centre of the bloom even when fully open, just like Radiance while GP opens completely to show stamens.
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Thank you both Margaret and Peter.
I have added a few characteristics to the main page. Shall I add “smooth pedicels”? Photos of the bare winter bush would be valuable I think. It looks a wonderful rose and to know it is so old, gives it added value.
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Smooth receptacles. The bud photo I posted does show some activity on the pedicel - not sure if they're glands or tiny prickles.
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Robert, do you think your parent plant was Clementina Carbonieri or Souv de Gilbert Nabonnand? You're the only one recorded to have extracted a seedling from it (whichever).
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I believe I got this one from Tom Liggett many years ago and have always assumed it was correct as he undoubtedly got his propagation material from San Jose Heritage.
I do not profess to be an expert on this cultivar. Whatever it is, I have used it as seed parent more than once.
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In The Roses of the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden Catalog, Tenth Anniversary Edition, April 2005, there are listings for Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand and Clementina Carbonieri (in trade as) [= Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand].
The provenance of Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand is recorded as Goteborg Rosarium, Gothemburg, Sweden.
The provenance of Clementina Carbonieri (in trade as) [= Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand] is Kathleen Jagger, Orinda, CA.
We visited The San Jose Heritage Rose Garden in 2005 and my notes from that visit say "These two roses appear to be identical. Cannot find any point of difference."
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I can't say I'm surprised. I apparently have the clone from Orinda if this is the case.
Where does this put us in terms of identification?
Has anyone asked Jill, or maybe Gregg Lowery?
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Thanks for a prompt reply Robert. Next question: does your plant (of the parent) have prickles?
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We're trying to identify a recently-spotted found rose in this colour range (Souv de Gilbert Nabonnand, Clementina Carbonieri, Isabelle Nabonnand). Looks like it will be hard to find a gold standard to compare it with.
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I would guess they have been confused too long to make a determination.
I wonder if some of the older references might give enough information to help sort things out
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Turns out our "new foundling" was a fairly recent seedling of Mons.Tillier, planted in an old cemetery a few years ago by a Heritage Roses member. Traps for the unwary.
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Yes, whichever it's moniker, seed fertile,
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Margaret, has it been confirmed that the recent seedling of Mons. Tillier and the “new foundling” were on or nearby the same grave site? Or did they come from different locations?
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Rob, who collected the rose, saw the email from Geoff, who planted it, about its general location. I have asked both about a grave name.
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Thank you Margaret.
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