HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
billy teabag
most recent 4 SEP SHOW ALL
Initial post 9 MAY by HubertG
I have my doubts about whether the rose I grow as 'Papa Gontier' (from Ross Roses) really is the correct variety.
Mine never sets hips. Nabonnand (who bred this rose) used it as a seed parent for quite a few varieties, and as dedicated crosses too, not just as randomly gathered hips. Also, 'Lady Hillingdon' is supposed to have PapaG as its seed parent as well.
I remember reading quite an old reference in one of the rose annuals (1950's, 60's?) that it was a triploid, which is all good for my rose, but doesn't make a lot of sense if Nabonnands were actively pollinating it.

Also, the commonest characteristic in the early descriptions is its very long pointed bud. I can get longish buds in cooler months but no longer than other tea roses introduced at the time. During the warmer months the flowers actually come very small and are rather irregular in shape. The early descriptions of a very large flower just don't match. The few photos that exist don't really match either. It's hard to imagine the plant I grow being used as a florists' rose, even by late 19th century standards.

So I'm in two minds about whether this is correct. Does anyone else's 'Papa Gontier' set hips? Has anyone else had doubts about this rose before?

Another thing is that Papa Gontier's sport 'Rainbow' resembles the early descriptions (apart from the stripes of course) but doesn't resemble my rose, in flower form etc.
Reply #1 of 13 posted 9 MAY by Margaret Furness
The Tea book says "hip small, globular, yellow to orange". Its photo of the bud looks like yours.
Reply #2 of 13 posted 9 MAY by HubertG
Thanks Margaret. It also says "only an occasional small, yellow hip matures, containing one or two seeds.".
There are seven offspring listed here with Papa Gontier as the seed parent, five of which are Nabonnand roses. I guess the Nabonnands were just very persistent in making crosses.

I also felt the shape of the rose didn't quite match the early photos, and some descriptions such as the 6cm long bud and 5" open flower ones seemed discordant.
Also the 1880's Nabonnand catalogues describe the centre as shaded yellow, which I can only see on one Papa Gontier photo here, and an old illustration, but never on mine (but which also seems to occur on 'Rainbow').
Reply #3 of 13 posted 10 MAY by billy teabag
If yours isn't especially prickly, you may have something else.
Reply #4 of 13 posted 10 MAY by HubertG
Quite possibly, but mine does rather look like the other Australian Papa Gontiers here.

Does anyone who grows Papa Gontier get flowers up to 12-13cm across like the 'Journal des Roses' describes?
Or gets yellow in the base?
Reply #5 of 13 posted 10 MAY by billy teabag
Flower size is generally a bit 'how long is a piece of string'-ish with Teas. It depends on whether they are maiden plants, chopped back hard or lightly trimmed (or not trimmed at all); whether they open quickly in heat or slowly in cooler weather; whether grown under cover or the open air.
My 'Papa Gontier' has yellow petal nubs lightening to pale, creamy yellow in the eye zone.
Reply #6 of 13 posted 10 MAY by Rockhill
The Tea Rose book gives the size of 'Papa Gontier' flowers as 10-15 cms and when conditions are favourable my very big, long-established bush does have flowers that are up to 15 cms in width. The buds are long and pointed and open quickly, the irregular just-double flowers are deep carmine-pink to paler pink, variable in shape and the stems are prickly. All the other 'Papa Gontier's that I have seen in Australia are the same. There are plenty of stamens and carpals and it looks like a very fertile rose. The fact that it only sets an occasional hip is probably due to genetic complications resulting from its being triploid. As for its being a florists’s rose, I have found if picked before they begin to open on the bush and put into a vase, they last very well as cut flowers. On HMF there are a few pale pink flowers that do not look much like what we call 'Papa Gontier' here. Overall, I think that the rose I grow as ‘Papa Gontier’ very well matches the early French descriptions and the rose recognised as being 'Papa Gontier' by the Friends of Nabonnand Roses.
Reply #7 of 13 posted 10 MAY by Margaret Furness
I think the Papa Gontier at Renmark was imported many decades ago by Alex Ross, and passed on to David Ruston. From there it was likely to have been the major source of budwood in Australia.
Reply #9 of 13 posted 10 MAY by HubertG
Margaret, probably all the Papa Gontiers in Australia are from that same source (unless some old known specimen has been discovered here) but whether it is the correct variety or not was what I was questioning.
Reply #8 of 13 posted 10 MAY by HubertG
Rockhill, thanks, that's encouraging to know someone does get large flowers.
Reply #10 of 13 posted 11 MAY by Patricia Routley
I would go along with 15cm for 'Papa Gontier'. That pen in my Oct 16, 2010 photo (158840) measures 13.5c. My plant does not grow very well, possibly being set back in its youth by a small shrub which smothered it.

I haven't really done any homework on these roses, but I would look ar two roses and their sports: I wonder about the difference between 'Improved Rainbow' and 'Mme Driout' and it may be the height.

'Papa Gontier' 1882
'Rainbow' 1889 (broad stripes')
'Improved Rainbow' c1893 (fine stripes)

'Reine Marie Henriette' (a climber)
'Mme. Driout' 1901 (A climber)
Reply #11 of 13 posted 11 MAY by Rockhill
At one time, Patricia, my 'Papa Gontier' plant measured about 5 metres wide by 3 metres high but I had to cut it back before it took over that part of my garden. This is just part of what it looked like in its prime.
Reply #12 of 13 posted 11 MAY by Patricia Routley
How absolutely wonderful. Good gardener. Good conditions.
But I am thinking of the height of 'Papa Gontier's sport/s and I will respond further in 'Rainbow's file.
Reply #13 of 13 posted 4 SEP by HubertG
I'm beginning to wonder if the rose sold in Australia as 'Papa Gontier' could in fact be 'Rose d'Evian'.
'Rose d'Evian has the same contrasting colours on the inner and reverse of the petals, large blooms, long buds, dense bushy growth.
most recent 2 SEP SHOW ALL
Initial post 29 JAN 15 by Give me caffeine
Mistydowns are stocking this one now

Also, I'm no expert but the Tea rose book describes this one as tall and upright, which in their parlance means around 2 metres or so, while descriptions of 'Princesse de Sagan' say it is a small bush of up to 80 cm.
Reply #1 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Margaret Furness
David Elliott's photo of a bush labelled P de S at Lyon looks more like the 2m, but of course it may not be correctly identified.
Reply #2 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Jane Z
Height, width & depth of between 1.8-2m would be expected for "Camnethan Cherry Red" in most areas where Teas grow. For whatever reason, sizes given in some Australian catalogues do not reflect the growth that 'local' conditions will produce. Photo's taken July 2006 central west NSW Australia
Reply #3 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Give me caffeine
Yes I've noticed that about sizes in catalogues. Mistydowns often seems to give sizes that make sense for a youngish bush in a cooler climate, or for a heavily pruned bush, but when other sources are checked they'll often indicate rampant growth and up to twice the size, depending.

I have a suspicion that some nurseries rely mainly on customers who have suburban gardens, and don't want to scare off the punters, so give sizes that indicate what it can be kept to without killing it instead of sizes that the thing will naturally aim for if given half a chance.
Reply #9 of 12 posted 3 JAN 16 by billy teabag
Worth a thousand words. Brilliant! Thanks Jane.
Reply #4 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Patricia Routley
Why are you connecting these two different roses?
Reply #5 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Margaret Furness
A rose identical with "Camnethan Cherry Red" was seen in the US (by one or more of the Tealadies, as far as I remember) labelled 'Princesse de Sagan'. I hope they will comment further.
As you know, the rose sold in Aus as P de S is incorrect. So photos of P de S from Australia should be disregarded, really.
Reply #6 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Give me caffeine
IanM's comment below, Discussion id : 57-888, mentions he thinks it is P de S. I saw his comment when posting mine.
Reply #7 of 12 posted 30 JAN 15 by Patricia Routley
If you listen hard enough, I am sure you will find 365 different opinions from all over the world on a rose.
I try to form my own opinions and it seems to me that the 'Princesse de Sagan' references for 1887, 1898, 1906, 1907, 1916 and 1921 all point to this original rose being a small bush.

My 15-year old, unpruned "Camnethan Cherry Red" on its own roots is about 2 metres high.
Reply #8 of 12 posted 30 JAN 15 by Margaret Furness
Jedmar's comment on his photos of Princesse de Sagan ex Loubert are of interest - maybe mislabelled, maybe Prof Ganiviat (which is what the Aus-sold rose is considered most likely to be). So I wonder if the tall rose labelled P de S, photographed by David Elliot at Lyon, was from the same source.
Reply #10 of 12 posted 31 AUG by Aussie rose lover
Margret you mention Professeur Graniviat as the likely contender for what many are calling Princesses de Sagan .IN this you are quite correct I believe .The Professeur is A cherry pink/ red and like many ,doesn't tend to have the white stripe that occasionally comes in the red varieties. Growth habitats are slightly different but you would need to be familiar with both to appreciate this. On the whole the Professeur is the slightly better rose I feel. But that is just me and I tend to be fairly tough and if I don't like something I either won't grew it or it gets pulled out and binned. I have several new roses which after four years are about to meet the bin.I wonder why they were released as the deleted ones even if they had black spot were still better plants.
Reply #11 of 12 posted 1 SEP by Margaret Furness
I'm increasingly of the opinion that there are too many roses.
Reply #12 of 12 posted 2 SEP by HubertG
Margaret, LOL!
most recent 30 AUG SHOW ALL
Initial post 10 MAY by HubertG
From the 'Rosen-Zeitung' 1895, page 73:

"Neuste Rosen für 1894/95

(Beschreibungen der Züchter)

Strauch wüchsig und sehr remontierend; Blume sehr gefüllt, wundervoll geformt, auf geraden Stielen; Blumenblätter dick, sehr regelmässig rund, leicht aufblühend; Farbe neu in dieser Klasse, carmoisinrot samtig purpur mit lebhaft kirsch- und feuerrotem Widerschein."

My translation:

Newest Roses for 1894/95

(Descriptions of the breeders)

Bush vigorous and very remontant; flower very double, wonderfully shaped, on straight stems; petals thick, very regularly round, opening easily; colour new in this class, crimson-red velvety purple with lively cherry-red and flame-red reflexes.
Reply #1 of 41 posted 10 MAY by Patricia Routley
That's interesting: "petals thick, very regularly round". Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
Reply #2 of 41 posted 14 MAY by HubertG
This is the text accompanying the colour illustration of 'Francis Dubreuil' in the 1896 Rosen-Zeitung, page 41

"1. Francis Dubreuil. (Thee). Dubreuil 1894.
Reichblütigkeit, kräftiger Wuchs, gute Füllung, aufrechte Haltung, elegante Form und eine dunkelblutrote Färbung hatte man bisher noch nicht unter den Theerosen in einer Sorte vereinigt gefunden. In der Dubreuil'schen Züchtung haben wir etwas Hervorragendes dieser Art erhalten, so dass der Züchter mit recht sagen konnte: Die schönste, bekannte "rote Thee". Der Strauch ist wüchsig, sehr verzweigt, dunkelbläulichgrün belaubt und sehr remontierend. Die wundervoll schön geformte mittelgrosse Blume ist sehr gefüllt, wird von geraden, festen Stielen aufrecht getragen, öffnet sich bei jeder Witterung. Die samtig carmoisin purpurrote Farbe wird durch eine feuerroten Widerschein erhellt und leidet weder durch Hitze noch durch Regen leicht. Eine als Knospe geschnittene Blume dauert im Glase Wasser wohl 8 Tage lang. Für Blumenbinderei-Geschäfte wird sie ohne Fehl eine viel begehrte und gesuchte Schnittrose sein. Ihre Massenanpflanzung kann daher nur dringend empfohlen werden. Dass sie auch wegen ihrer seltenen Vorzüge schnell erkannt wurde, beweisst eine überaus starke Nachfrage in Pflanzen, sodass dieses Frühjahr wohl in keinem Geschäfte eine kräftige Pflanz unverkauft blieb. Auch dürfte sie zu Gruppenpflanzungen Verwendung finden und grosse Wirkung erzielen, doch besorge man ihr kräftige, humusreiche, lehmige Erde. Die in den letzten Jahren in den Handel gebrachten dunkelroten Thee sind von "Francis Dubreuil" alle in den Schatten gestellt. Ob sie eine Treibrose sein wird, können wir bis jetzt noch nicht sagen.
Reply #3 of 41 posted 15 MAY by Patricia Routley
Thank you HubertG. Reference added.
Reply #4 of 41 posted 15 MAY by HubertG
I should have time to do the translation tonight, Patricia.
Reply #5 of 41 posted 15 MAY by HubertG
My translation:

1. Francis Dubreuil. (Tea). Dubreuil 1894. Amongst the Tea Roses, one had not found freedom of flowering, strong growth, good petalage, upright held flowers, elegant shape and a dark blood-red colouring combined in the one variety until now. In this Dubreuil creation we have obtained something outstanding of this kind, so that the breeder can rightly say: the most beautiful known "red Tea". The bush is vigorous, very branched, foliaged dark bluish-green and very remontant. The wonderful beautifully shaped medium-sized flower is very double, borne upright on straight firm stems, opening in any weather. The velvety crimson purple-red colour is lit with a fire-red reflection and neither through heat nor through rain does it suffer easily. A flower cut as a bud lasts well for 8 days in a glass of water. For florist businesses it will become a very coveted and sought after cut rose without fail. Therefore their mass planting can only be highly recommended. The fact that it was also quickly recognised because of its rare merits, established an exceedingly strong demand for plants, so that this spring hardly any vigorous plant remained unsold in the stores. It should also find use for group plantings and achieve great effect, but still, one should give it strong humus-rich, loamy soil. 'Francis Dubreuil' eclipses all dark red Teas introduced into commerce in recent years. Whether it will become forcing rose, we cannot yet say.

I hope it's still English. I've tried to translate it as literally as possible without it sounding too Germanic.
It would be interesting for someone who grows this rose to do the 8 day vase-life test.
Reply #6 of 41 posted 15 MAY by Patricia Routley
The translation added. Thanks HubertG. The 8-day test in different seasons. I have found that the well-watered autumn roses last longer.
Reply #7 of 41 posted 15 MAY by Margaret Furness
A better test of a true Francis Dubreuil would be the scent; if it has any, it should be Tea-scented. See old references.
Reply #8 of 41 posted 16 MAY by HubertG
There is that reference that says it has a distinct apple scent.

Patricia, I left out an 'a' in the last sentence of that translation - it should be " become a forcing rose".

If the rose grown as 'Francis Dubreuil' lasts only a few days in water then that might be an argument that it isn't the original rose.
Although I haven't grown FD (and the main reason was really that it was not meant to be the correct variety), but I have to ask, since it isn't 'Barcelona' after all, what tea is it? I have to admit that it does rather match the German descriptions - regular rounded petals, dark blue-green foliage, colour description etc.
I think it might need to be reappraised as possibly the correct variety.
Reply #9 of 41 posted 16 MAY by Margaret Furness
No, I can't buy anyone describing the rose currently-sold-as FD, as scentless. When the designated scent-testers for the Rose Trial grounds in Adelaide Botanic Gardens are assessing new varieties, and find they need to re-set 10 (like setting white balance!), they go and stick their noses in "Not Francis Dubreuil".
The Tea book includes an illustration of FD from Rosen-Zeitung 1896, showing long pointed leaves. The authors conclude their discussion of Not FD by saying "...we just wish that we could call it a Tea!".
Reply #10 of 41 posted 16 MAY by HubertG
Yet the illustration from Betten's Die Rose 1903 doesn't show a long bud or leaves. Which one is correct? The Betten illustration looks more realistically drawn than the Rosen-Zeitung illustration.

I'm only going by the photos I've seen, but if this was the FD introduced in the 1890's, from its habit and freedom of flowering it wouldn't have been classed as a Hybrid Perpetual, a Bourbon or any other rose class at the time. No doubt a red tea would have had a little bit of 'something else' in its breeding to give it its colour and that perhaps makes it less typical of the appearance of the 'purer' teas, but like I say, how would this particular rose be classed back then?

I've only seen it a few times in person at visits to Parramatta Park in Sydney years ago. It certainly did have a good fragrance but I couldn't describe its scent after all this time.

At least we know it came from Sangerhausen. There can't be too many candidates in the early lists that match it.
Reply #11 of 41 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
Here's an early American reference describing FD as "very fragrant":
From G. R. Gause's 1905 Catalogue of Roses (on the inside front cover)

A new red Tea Rose of unusual merit, with fine, large, double flowers, which, in color, are equal to the best of our deep-colored Hybrid Perpetuals. The flowers are large, very full and double, with thick, regularly arranged petals. Color is red, with velvety shadings; rich and very fragrant."
Reply #12 of 41 posted 28 MAY by Margaret Furness
The rose photographed in 1906 isn't what is grown as FD now.
Reply #13 of 41 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
I just uploaded the illustration of Francis Dubreuil on the cover of the Gause 1905 catalogue. Unfortunately, it's one of those catalogue illustrations which aren't really an accurate depiction but probably have some semblance of truth. It actually looks half-way between the 1906 photo and the currently grown FD.
Reply #14 of 41 posted 28 MAY by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. I have added the reference. Is the spelling in the original text Francis or Francois?
Reply #15 of 41 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
Your welcome. In the original text it is spelt "Francois".
Reply #38 of 41 posted 29 AUG by HubertG
I have said previously that I did not think 'Princess Bonnie' is a contender for the real identity of FD, but this photograph of Princess Bonnie in the 1916 catalogue of Dingee & Conard (the originators) has me thinking twice about it. The blooms do look cupped, and the petals have that same flattish appearance, with the little indent on the petal edges, giving them a somewhat heart shaped look. And Princess Bonnie was very fragrant. What do others think? The photo gives a good view of the buds too. Note that one stem seems to have a small cluster of three buds.
Reply #39 of 41 posted 29 AUG by Margaret Furness
Not sure about the receptacle shape, but it's close.
Reply #40 of 41 posted 30 AUG by HubertG
The problem is that this photo doesn't really look a lot like other depictions of Princess Bonnie, and I wonder if it's a catalogue photo mix up.
Princess Bonnie's pedigree is a tea x (probably triploid) HT, so that could give a fertile diploid rose (as 'FD' does sets hips), so that would make sense. Additionally PB's pollen parent 'William Francis Bennett' does look a bit like 'FD' regarding the blooms (at least in the only photo posted here). However PBonnie is usually described as exceptionally free flowering, and I'm not sure if that could be said about 'FD'.

Also 'Admiral Schley' could be another possible contender although I don't know that they had that rose at Sangerhausen. It certainly isn't mentioned in the Rosen-Zeitung.
Reply #41 of 41 posted 30 AUG by HubertG
The rose on the left looks as if it has barely 3-4 rows of petals.
Reply #16 of 41 posted 31 MAY by Plazbo
I'm probably being dumb but are you calling it "Not Francis Dubreuil" because we aren't sure what is being sold in Australia is actually Barcelona? Or is it fairly certain it is Barcelona?

Just a little confused about whether I should be running it through my diploid lines or pairing it with something like Rhapsody In Blue instead...I'm assuming the latter based on a lot of comments on here.
Reply #17 of 41 posted 31 MAY by HubertG
Plazbo, I'm confused too haha. Check out "David Martin's No41" which is the most likely candidate for the 1932 'Barcelona' (in fact in my opinion there is no reason to doubt that it is Barcelona).
Somehow the rose distributed as Francis Dubreuil had been confused for Barcelona in the US hence it wasn't thought to be FD, and so has become NotFD. Anyway, that's my take on it in a nutshell anyway.
I'm sure one of the Tealadies could expand on this.

I still think that it could be the original Francis Dubreuil. As I've mentioned previously, even though it has some atypical tea characteristics, it doesn't easily fall into another class either. It does match early descriptions especially the rounded regularly arranged velvety petals, and the dark bluish-green foliage. And it did come from Sangerhausen labelled as Francis Dubreuil. True, the bloom doesn't look a lot like the 1906 photo, but some of the photos here do show recurving petal edges. It certainly (to my mind) doesn't seem anything like what one would expect a Hybrid Tea given commercial release in the 1930's to be, so isn't Barcelona.

As to its ploidy, who knows? The original FD would most likely to have come through one of those early red teas like Duchess of Edinburgh which was introduced as a tea but clearly had hybrid characteristics, perhaps self pollinated and retaining enough Tea characteristics but developing the velvety red blooms. So if it was say a self pollination of a triploid that occasionally set hips, it could end up being a diploid or a tetraploid. This is just my speculation of course. Just for comparison of a similar possible breeding, look at 'Princess Bonnie' which is from a {T x (T x HP)} cross.
Reply #18 of 41 posted 31 MAY by Margaret Furness
Sangerhausen has been through two world wars, and every big collection or garden or nursery has mislabels. Especially if the labels are small enough for the public to move around. We kept updating the labels at Renmark as new information came in, but there are still some I'm uneasy about or would change if it was worth spending more there at present. For example, what we have as Excellenz von Schubert and Merveille des Rouges are pretty clearly incorrect.
Reply #19 of 41 posted 8 JUN by HubertG
I wonder if 'Marion Dingee' might be a possibilty for this rose. There are plenty of references online but I haven't come across a reference to its fragrance. The illustrations suggest a cupped shape and often the references describe a very dark colour. Here's the coloured plate for 'Marion Dingee' from Dingee's 1892 catalogue. Dingee's give the breeding as 'Comtesse de Casserta' x 'Duchess of Edinburgh'.
Reply #20 of 41 posted 8 JUN by Patricia Routley
You might be on to something HubertG. The bloom shape is about right, the colour is about right, the "short compact" growth is about right.
We have:
1889 Marion Dingee (Early illustrations show a shorter bloom)
1894 Francis Dubreuil (Early illustrations, 1896 and 1906, show a taller bloom)
I'll search for 'Marion Dingee' in Australia later in the day.
Reply #21 of 41 posted 8 JUN by HubertG
What's a bit out of place though is the lack of fragrance in the descriptions. Dingee's other red Tea was Princess Bonnie which they lauded as one of the sweetest scented roses available. One would think to promote their own rose (in Marion Dingee), if it had a good fragrance, they would at least mention its scent when it was introduced. I don't think Princess Bonnie is a contender from early references and illustrations, by the way.

It is interesting however to compare the buds in the coloured illustration I posted above with the photo Tomartyr posted on 30 Nov 2011, photo Id 187697.
Reply #22 of 41 posted 9 JUN by billy teabag
A very quick response before a more considered one.
Reliable early Australian references to Francis Dubreuil tell us this was one of the big Teas. From memory, the 1930s reference to roses in NSW tells us it was 9 feet tall.
Even in the best conditions, with the best care and attention, the rose sold as Francis Dubreuil struggles to reach half that height.
Reply #23 of 41 posted 9 JUN by Patricia Routley
In 1893 (four years after 'Marion Dingee' was introduced,) it was said to have a "short compact growth". The 1930s was about 60 years later. I hope you will share some of those references Billy. I probably have them, but I added 15 refs to 'Marion Dingee' yesterday and must move on. (My Francis Dubreuil' manages to make about 2 feet.)
Reply #24 of 41 posted 10 JUN by billy teabag
The ref I was remembering is this one from George Knight's 1931 article Tea Roses in New South Wales which has already been added:
"What an opportunity is offered to some of the authorities in connection with the public gardens of the State to plant out some of the most vigorous of these old tea Roses and grow them into large shrubs. There is no more striking feature than to see a Rose bush eight or nine feet high, built in proportion and covered in bloom. I would suggest as some of the most suitable for this purpose : Corallina, Mme Charles, Dr. Grill, Francois Dubreuil, Mdlle. Christine de Noue and Mrs Dunlop Best. The latter makes a nice bush up to six feet. p104 Australian Rose Annual 1931.

The "Not Francis Dubreuil" we used to have also only managed about 2'6" in height and width before losing the will to live.
To my eye it looks like a hybrid of a China rose and something HP-ish.

I'll check to see whether I have anything else on my computer that hasn't been added to HMF and will have a look on Trove.
Reply #25 of 41 posted 10 JUN by HubertG
Maybe another possibility to consider is 'Friedrichsruh' from 1907. It was a cross from 'Princesse de Bearn' x 'Francis Dubreuil' and appeared to be a shorter-growing bushy rose, Sangerhausen had it in their collection and gave it a 7/10 for fragrance. That's assuming of course that the rose grown as 'Friedrichsruh' at Sangerhausen now is incorrect. And despite being classed as a Hybrid Tea it had short stems and nodding flowers.
Reply #26 of 41 posted 10 JUN by billy teabag
Worth a closer look, I think, HubertG. It's not uncommon to see mixups between roses in large collections that are close alphabetically.
Short stems and nodding flowers on a shorter plant is a good start.
Reply #27 of 41 posted 11 JUN by HubertG
That's a good point Billy. Not only is there the possibility of them being confused if they looked similar but also as their names both start with FR, a mixup could have occurred in the cataloguing. Possibly.
There are quite a few references for 'Friedrichsruh' in the Rosen-Zeitung. One describes 'Souvenir de Clos Vougeot' as in the style of a paeony "like Friedrichsruh". I'm not sure how paeony-like FD is. Perhaps a bit.
Reply #28 of 41 posted 13 JUN by Patricia Routley
I've added a few more refs for 'Friedrichsruh'.
Reply #29 of 41 posted 13 JUN by true-blue
Hubert, sorry to barge in.
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest.

However, I doubt if Francis Dubreuil was a fragrant rose. If you check the original advertisement in Journal des roses, thee's no mention of that:
Here is the text, translated from the original:

Mr. F. Dubreuil, rose-grower, 146, route de Grenoble, of Montplaisir-Lyon has two new roses for sale; the descriptions follow:
Francis Dubreuil (Tea). — A robuste and very remontant shrub, the flower is very full, of an admirable form, upright on rigid peduncles at the tips of the canes, with thick petals, very regularly rounded, in gracefully developed curves of a cup with softened contours, opening with extreme ease, of a color absolutely novel amongst the Teas, crimson red, velvety purple with vivid cherry-amaranth highlights, the bud is an elongated ovoid shape of great beauty.
Due to the perfection of its form and the intensity of its purple and amaranth hues, this variety constitutes the most beautiful red Tea Rose known
This variety has been awarded: 1) the silver medal of the Society of Practical Horticulture of the Rhône; 2) a prize at the Universal Exposition at Lyon, concourse of Jue 1894; 3) a first-class certificate from the Lyonnaise Horticultural Association.
Reply #30 of 41 posted 14 JUN by HubertG
True-blue, no need to apologise. :-) The omission of the description of a fragrance when any rose is introduced is rather suspicious of it not having much scent. However an omission doesn't necessarily mean it didn't have a fragrance. There are other references which say it was fragrant, but when they come from catalogues trying to sell stock, you need to be a bit discerning, I suppose, as to whether they are exaggerations. The early apple fragrance description intrigues me.

Patricia, wow, you've been busy adding to 'Friedrichsruh'! Last I looked there were only half a dozen or so references. I want to add some more from the Rosen-Zeitung but maybe not till the weekend. One describes the buds and leaves in detail (including a bud photo), another says how it is mildew-free and the fragrance is intoxicating and emits particularly after rain. The mildew-free description is interesting because the few photos here of 'Friedrichsruh' from Sangerhausen show a somewhat mildew affected plant! (well it looks that way to me).

What's interesting about 'Friedrichsruh' is that it is a child of 'Francis Dubreuil'. If only we had an inexpensive genetic test to find out how much two roses are related to each other!
Reply #31 of 41 posted 15 JUN by true-blue
Hubert, if memory serves me well, none of the French sources, noted FD as fragrant, hence my conclusion that is most probably not fragrance worthy, hence my conclusion.
Reply #32 of 41 posted 28 JUL by HubertG
I just came across this one: "Francois Menard" a velvety crimson globular tea from 1892.
Sangerhausen's description: "
Ménard, François (tea) Tesnier 1892; crimson, centre velvety cherry, very large, very double, globular, floriferous, thick smooth branches, growth 6/10, bushy, short."

I haven't researched it at all yet - no initial mention of fragrance either - but I thought it might be interesting to look at it as a contender for "Francis Dubreuil" considering too they are both a Francois (well nearly).
Reply #33 of 41 posted 29 JUL by HubertG
Here's my translation of the description of Francois Menard in the Rosen-Zeitung (from German, which would have been originally from French):

François Ménard (Tea). Shrub low, very vigorous, bushy, fairly smooth and thick-wooded, beautiful dark green foliage; bud very thick on a firm stem, flower very large, very double, globular, beautifully held; beautiful crimson red, centre cherry red blending to velvety crimson, choice, floriferous. (originates from a seedling).

Not sure about the "smooth" wood, if it fits "FD", and although the colour is crimson, that might not necessarily be a dark crimson. No mention of fragrance.
Reply #34 of 41 posted 29 JUL by true-blue
Hubert, I sifted through my Journal des Roses/Amis des Rose, couldn't find anything tangible.
I checked the L'Haÿ's site, nada.

I found this in Page 42 of Dingee and Conard, 1898

Francois Menard.—New, crimson red, passing to purple.
Reply #35 of 41 posted 29 JUL by true-blue
I found this to in
Journal of Horticulture and Practical Gardening, Volume 26, page 288, March 22, 1892

New French roses
15, François Ménard (Tesnier) - Crimson red, centre cherry red, passing into velvety crimson. Very large, very full, globular firm stem.

Link is :énard%22&source=bl&ots=_Dil-Ncm9U&sig=W0tv7tp-kSoSpN2ry0yeA73z0Sw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWjvDUzsTcAhUvVt8KHTY5Ajo4ChDoATAAegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=rose%20%22Francois%20Ménard%22&f=false
Reply #36 of 41 posted 30 JUL by HubertG
True-Blue It looks like Francois Menard never really caught on anywhere. Of course if the rose sold as Francis Dubreuil came from Sangerhausen, it could be any obscure rose from that collection, so doesn't necessarily rule out Francois Menard, but some aspects of FM seem to fit and others don't. If only 'Marion Dingee' came with a description of scent...
Reply #37 of 41 posted 6 AUG by HubertG
Here's another contender to consider: Mme. Rivoy. Dingees class it among their Tea Roses in 1897 but say it is an old variety and has HP characteristics. From their catalogue:

"MADAME RIVOY.* Looks like a Hybrid Perpetual in Flower and Foliage. Is Hardy. In this grand old variety we have a Rose of no ordinary excellence. It is entitled to a place among Ever-blooming Roses equal to that which General Jacqueminot takes among Hybrid Perpetuals. Indeed it is not unlike a Hybrid Perpetual in the extra-large, full and loosely-formed double flowers, enchanting fragrance, intensity of color, large handsome foliage, and extreme vigor of growth ; it is hardy with slight protection, a quick, constant and profuse bloomer, and for outdoor culture cannot be excelled by any Rose of its color. The flowers are produced in wonderful abundance upon long stiff stems, and in color may be described as a rich crimson scarlet; very bright and effective. We doubt if any of our customers have ever seen this lovely Rose, and it is for their benefit, that all may secure one of the finest and best Roses grown, that we call special attention to it by our truthful illustration."

They include an illustration which isn't totally incompatible with "FD".
I don't know if it was in the Sangerhausen collection.
most recent 22 AUG SHOW ALL
Initial post 24 NOV 09 by Maurizio Usai
I'm pretty convinced that this rose is in fact 'Maman Cochet'.
Reply #1 of 14 posted 26 NOV 09 by billy teabag
From the photos I've seen of this rose, I agree with you.
Is there any reason it cannot be Maman Cochet?
Reply #2 of 14 posted 26 NOV 09 by Maurizio Usai
Hi Billy, John Hook told me that "Bryan Freidel P.T." should be 'Auguste Comte', and you can see on HMF what I think about this one. Apart from personal observations, I think that it's easier that, being BFPT a USA found Rose, it's likely to be a variety pretty common in cultivation like 'Maman Cochet', than a variety unknown in cultivation like A.C.
Note that true 'Maman Cochet' is not in commerce (except than in John's Roseraie du Désert) in Europe, as every nurseryman grows under this name (but not this only one) the Rose I've posted in the 'Auguste Comte' page.

I've made a comparison of BFPT in my garden, using both 'White Maman Cochet' and 'Clg. White Maman Cochet*' and every detail of these Roses seems to be identical to 'Bryan Freidel'.
* I have to remark that this Rose came to me as 'Chromathella' - 'Cloth of Gold'.

Reply #3 of 14 posted 27 NOV 09 by billy teabag
These things happen! Was it a simple case of an error in labelling or misidentification?
“The rose thought to be Auguste Comte” over here can sometimes look so much like ‘Maman Cochet’. At other times, the differences are very marked.
(In Oz it's been found in a number of places and has the study names "Not Mme Hoste", "Hay Valley Red Tea", "Nantawarra Pink" and there are probably more. Now that we know it better, we are recognising it in more and more places. It seems to be one of the more common surviving roses in cemeteries and the sites of old gardens.) It makes sense that the two roses should be similar – both roses are the result of ‘Marie van Houtte’ x ‘Mme Lambard’.

If I list the similarities and differences noticed in my garden will you check whether they match what you have seen in your plants?

Pedicel – ‘Maman Cochet’ has a basically smooth pedicel - the undercarriage of the bloom has a clean, smooth appearance. "The rose thought to be Auguste Comte" can have a smooth pedicel but it is more often glandular - sometimes very glandular.

Bloom colour - both roses range in colour and at times they are hard to tell apart, but when "?Auguste Comte" produces the darker coloured blooms with striking, intense carmine-red on the outer petals and the petal edges, they are not like anything seen on ‘Maman Cochet’. (At the moment, our plants are producing very dark flowers – from a distance they look dark carmine – I cannot see any cream).

Foliage – Tea foliage can vary so much depending on climate, season and conditions and one always has to be careful saying anything is 'typical' but...... ‘Maman Cochet’ often has leaves that look 'quilted' because of the impressed veins and "?Auguste Comte" tends to have darker leaves with less impressed veins, often a denser appearance and a more pronounced point to the leaflet.

At certain times of the year "?Auguste Comte" will appear to set hips - some of them quite large - but if they are cut open, to date there have been no seeds - they are like the 'hips' formed by ‘Rosette Delizy’ - just full of fibrous material. I haven't seen these 'hips' forming on ‘Maman Cochet’.

One of the photos of “Bryan Freidel Pink Tea” on HMF shows a bud with a fresh green square-based receptacle and this is one of the things so often (but not always! – sometimes they have rounded bases) seen on ‘Maman Cochet’. (Noelene Drage says it reminds her of a ‘saucepan on a stick’ – an association that sticks in my mind.)

Do these obs. mirror what you have found?

I hope it can be sorted out and that the correct 'Maman Cochet' will find its way into mainstream commerce over there. It is such a beautiful rose and incredibly hard working in hot climates.
It’s not easy deciding what’s what, especially when plants are young and capricious. “Nantawarra Pink” came to us as a matchstick with roots and as it slowly grew I thought it was ‘Maman Cochet’ and we were going to change the study name to “Nantawarra Cochet”. Then it grew some more and we realised that it was doing things that ‘Maman Cochet’ didn’t do and that it was in fact the same as “Not Mme Hoste” and was probably ‘Auguste Comte’.
All good fun.

Do you grow the climbing form of 'White Maman Cochet'? Once established it is one of the most beautiful roses I know.
Reply #4 of 14 posted 27 NOV 09 by Maurizio Usai
Hello Billy,
the Rose in commerce in Europe as 'Chromathella' IS, in fact, the climbing form of 'White Maman Cochet', and I have it -still young- in my garden.
I guess John has now the rightly named 'Chromatella', and I hope to have it soon in my garden :o)

I've checked your list for similarities, and I have to agree with every point of your list.
I have to add the following, using 'White Maman Cochet' to compare:

Bloom: '?Auguste Comte' have smaller flowers than 'White Maman Cochet', much more "globular" at the base, near the receptacle (I don't know how to correctly explain this in english, sorry). The bud is also less elongated, and petals have a different way to roll at the edges. In my climate, blooms on "?Auguste Comte" are easily scorched* by the sun, even in Spring: this never happens to "Bryan Friedel PT" or 'White Maman Cochet', even in August. (* unfortunately, many Teas, like 'Archiduc Joseph-Monsieur Tillier', are easily burnt in my climate).

I'm going to add some new pictures, both for 'Bryan Friedel Pink Tea" and "?Auguste Comte" - I hope they would be helpful.
Reply #5 of 14 posted 29 NOV 09 by billy teabag
Thanks Maurizio - your description of the differences in bloom form are very clear and they match the roses we have here.
"?Auguste Comte" has produced a lot of blooms with unusually large receptacles this spring - some are so large they have split. Does this ever happen with yours? Spring has been milder than usual, with cooler spells and some cold nights so the swelling and splitting may have happened because the blooms have been developing more slowly than usual.
I planted the climbing form of Maman Cochet the other day. It's just a small cutting-grown plant at the moment so looking forward to seeing it grow up. I saw a well established one the other day - it had made its way high into some trees and those gorgeous nodding blooms were looking so good.
Reply #14 of 14 posted 22 AUG by Nastarana
Hardy to zone 4? A tea rose? If that is the case, I want one now.
Reply #6 of 14 posted 16 JUN 13 by John Hook
Helen Good???
Reply #7 of 14 posted 30 AUG 16 by Margaret Furness
Maman Cochet is evergreen in zone 9b. Helen Good has been promising for "Bishop's Lodge Jane Isabella Linton" but "BL JIL" is deciduous in zone 9b. Would someone check the Bryan Friedel rose in winter please.
Reply #8 of 14 posted 30 AUG 16 by John Hook
"BL JIL" , Bryan Friedel and Maman Cochet aren't synonymous in my opinion as we are growing all three
Reply #9 of 14 posted 30 AUG 16 by Margaret Furness
Thank you: we knew Maman Cochet was different from "BL JIL" but don't have "Bryan Friedel" here.
Reply #10 of 14 posted 21 AUG by HubertG
Just from reading descriptions and comments, and looking at all the photos here, I think 'Helen Good' is probably the most likely candidate for this rose, in my humble opinion.
Reply #11 of 14 posted 21 AUG by John Hook
We have this rose on our website as Helen Good with description
Reply #12 of 14 posted 21 AUG by Margaret Furness
I'd hoped that whether or not a rose was deciduous would help identification, but losing leaves in winter has turned out to be inconsistent across different gardens in similar weather zones.
Reply #13 of 14 posted 21 AUG by HubertG
Ah good, John! Reading a lot of the early catalogues it was pretty popular.
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