HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
billy teabag
most recent 5 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 5 SEP 14 by billy teabag
Thornless forms of Fortuniana certainly exist - selectively propagated by some nurserymen who use this rose as a rootstock, but the majority of plants I have checked are quite prickly.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 5 days ago by bonbon
Billy West
I will check my bush out for prickles. It is quite vigorous and at present is spot flowering in March 2018..
most recent 6 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 21 FEB by Margaret Furness
Tea IDs are often messy. I'm told that the rose sold as Dr Grill in Australia is usually William R Smith, and the true Dr Grill may be the rose sold in Australia as Comtesse Riza du Parc.
Elsewhere it is also complicated: see the description page. "'Dr. Grill' in USA is not the original rose. 'Mme Lombard' is sold in Europe sometimes as 'Dr. Grill'."
Reply #1 of 29 posted 22 FEB by HubertG
Although I can't be sure if the rose I grow is the real Dr Grill, I can't see it as being William R Smith. Although I haven't grown that rose, it is described almost invariably in the early references as white (or creamy white) blushed with pink. I can't see anyone using that description to describe the rose I grow as Dr Grill. It also doesn't look like many of the photos of William R Smith here. The rose grown is Australia as Comtesse Riza du Parc from the photos here looks too compact and bushy to match the angular semi-hybrid tea habit early references describe and that my Dr Grill has. Also, mine does have the 'hay' scent that is uniquely described in an early Hazlewood catalogue.
I wish we could do DNA testing on this rose and compare it to Antoine Rivoire and Mme Abel Chatenay, offspring of Dr Grill.
Reply #2 of 29 posted 22 FEB by Margaret Furness
Where did your Dr Grill come from? A year or two ago I would have been itching to grow it at Renmark beside all the other Teas we've gathered, but the future of that property and its maintenance are so uncertain that there's no point in planting more there. Nevertheless it would be nice to grow it somewhere where it could be compared directly.
Reply #3 of 29 posted 22 FEB by HubertG
I'm pretty sure that I bought it at Bowen Mountain (Honeysuckle Nursery?) as a potted specimen, maybe 8-9 years ago. The buds and flowers come more coppery yellow in the shade and pink in the sun. I'm pretty sure its first flowers after the nursery were coppery yellow - I'll try to find some really old photos of it to post. The colour is rather variable.
Reply #4 of 29 posted 22 FEB by Patricia Routley
Check out the Note on the "Comtesse Riza du Parc (in commerce as, in Australia)" page. You might find it valuable to photograph the bud and pedicel exactly side-on, as the asymmetry mentioned in the Note is only slight.
Reply #5 of 29 posted 23 FEB by HubertG
The receptacles on the Australian 'Comtesse Riza du Parc' look rather ovoid whereas the receptacles on my Dr Grill really don't constrict towards the base of the sepals. They don't look to be the same rose to me. Also from the descriptions Australian CRdP appears to readily set many hips, and my Dr Grill does set hips but not prolifically. The flowers are fully double and I think you need a keen bee to get to the stigmas. I've never seen mildew on mine either but that could just be growing conditions.
Here's a bud I took just 2 weeks ago. It isn't directly in profile but it gives you an idea. You can see from the leaves it needs a feed. I'll post some photos of developing hips on the weekend. Luckily, I'm a bit lazy regarding deadheading.

Incidentally, I just uploaded a very good early photograph of William R Smith. The bud shown in this detailed black and white photo is rather stout. I don't think it's my Dr Grill.
Reply #6 of 29 posted 23 FEB by billy teabag
What's your rose like in the balled blooms department HubertG? Are they usually as clean as the ones in your photos or does it make unsightly ones when conditions aren't to its liking?
You describe the plant habit as angular semi-hybrid tea - would you say the stems are relatively stout and strong?

Unless the bud in your photo is atypical, I'd agree it's definitely not "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" - though that rose takes regular and diligent light snickering to achieve a compact and bushy habit. Left to its own devices "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" is an angular and ungainly rose - a very prickly one too, with mean prickles right up to the bracts just beneath the bud. The receptacles are invariably constricted at the top - and it likes to make a large hip full of seeds for every untrimmed bloom. Like you, I would love to see a DNA comparison of the various Dr Grill contenders with Mme Abel Chatenay. David Ruston said he has seen five and he liked the William R Smith one the best!

Our attempts to trace the provenance of the roses sold by Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery were unsuccessful. Most nurseries we contacted were happy to share that information but the proprietor did not respond to our requests. We understand that the proprietor received many of her roses from Heather and Roy Rumsey, but I cannot say for certain that Rumsey's Nursery was the source of her Dr Grill.

For what it's worth, Heather Rumsey imported a rose named Dr Grill from Sangerhausen in the late 1970s/ early 1980s which went on to be widely distributed among Australian rose nurseries. This proved to be 'William R. Smith'.

The pedicel of your rose looks smooth in your photo of the bud - would you mind checking whether it's completely smooth or if it has some stalked glands or small bristles? Another thing to check is whether the hips contain any seeds or if they are just full of fibrous material.

Thanks for the photo of 'William R. Smith'.
Reply #7 of 29 posted 23 FEB by HubertG
BIlly Teabag, I've never really seen my bush ball as such - it does open well - but the petal edges are frequently slightly marked and brownish. Not too badly to ruin the flower's overall appearance but it's nicer to take a photo of a spotless rose. Even the ones I've posted with rain drops on them still opened well.

The stems are slightly thicker than the average tea, but I wouldn't say the stems are particularly short, more medium length. It's somewhat ungainly because it tends to throw shoots up from anywhere on the plant. I prune it moderately. otherwise it would get quite big. If this is the real Dr Grill I imagine it would get some of its vigour from its Noisette parent Ophirie, although I'm only speculating. The leaves are a bit larger than an average tea as well. I don't think it's the Australian version of Comtesse Riza du Parc either.

That bud I posted is fairly typical. I've never noticed any glands on the stem but I'll check tomorrow, and I've never opened up one of the hips before so I can't comment on the seed content.

Here's a photo that I wasn't going to post but you can see what I mean about the petals being slightly marked. This is fairly typical. I picked a particularly large 'Agnes Smith' and photographed it next to my Dr Grill for size comparison. You can also see the difference in the two pinks, Agnes (left) being clear and Dr Grill (right) being more fawn. Also, the petals of my Dr Grill usually fall off fairly cleanly, but the centre petals come away first often leaving just the outside five petals on till last.

You are welcome about the W R Smith photo. It's a real find because it must date to the time of its introduction and it is very clear too.
Reply #8 of 29 posted 24 FEB by HubertG
Here are a few hips of my Dr Grill. One I estimate to be from the October flush, so about 4 months old and just beginning to colour a bit. It's about 2.5cm across. The others are developing hips from only about 5 weeks ago, so are a lot smaller.
The stems are indeed smooth - no bristles anywhere. It isn't overly thorny - the thorns in the photos are typical. I will wait until the hips are ripe before I open them because I thought it would be fun to try and germinate some seeds.
Reply #9 of 29 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
I've just posted a few more photos of my Dr Grill from 2016 which show a more coppery yellow predominating. They are all from my one bush.
Reply #10 of 29 posted 26 FEB by Patricia Routley
Blooms of many tea roses are quite changeable in their colour. Take a look at Billy Teabag's photo of ' William R. Smith' at Araluen Botanic Park, near Perth, Western Australia, Spring 2011. You need to photograph your whole bush, showing the skeleton of it if you can.
Reply #11 of 29 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
Even if William R Smith comes yellowy at times, my Dr Grill is never white or creamy white flushed pink, so I still can't see it as being W R Smith.
Billy's WRSmith has rather brownish red flower stems like in the George C Thomas 1914 photo, mine are always green. This could just be a cultivation thing - I don't know. I don't think it's your Amelia Anderson either because mine doesn't ball. Some of the photos here of WRSmith certainly look as if they are different roses. There seems to be a lot of confusion around.
It's interesting that Jedmar has posted a Charles Dingee from Sangerhausen and the Rumsey's imported a Dr Grill from Sangerhausen as well. At least this suggests they had two separate roses.
Reply #12 of 29 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
And Margaret's pink ones!!!
That plant at Araluen is magnificent! There are two really strong and healthy plants at Araluen - one came to them as "BL Amelia Anderson" and the other as "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]".
The two plants in my garden are not as pleasing. One came from the same source as Araluen's "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" and the other was propagated from a very old plant of 'W.R. Smith' in a garden in Guildford. They produce absolutely beautiful blooms at times but have been slow to build up their skeletons and they look very ungainly and lop-sided compared with the bushes at Araluen. They seem to be heavy feeders and are one of the first roses in the garden to tell me I'm late with their food.
I usually either cut the blooms or deadhead them, so will leave the next ones on to see whether they make any hips here.
Reply #13 of 29 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
My Dr Grill is never THAT pink!
Billy, do you have any photos of the flowers of the old plant from Guildford of W R Smith?

So your photo of William R Smith (photo ID 184609) is Dr Grill from Sangerhausen?
Reply #14 of 29 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
I haven't seen them that pink on mine either (yet) but Teas are full of surprises and as soon as you say 'never', they are likely to do something bizarre. Most Teas vary in colour and form with the seasons but the really odd variations often happen a few weeks after extreme fluctuations in temperature or extreme weather events.
I have slides of the old plant in Guildford but haven't had them digitised. You can take my word for it that it's the same as "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" and "Bishops Lodge Amelia Anderson".
I'll have a look through my photo files to see if there are any photos of the plant propagated from it.

(Yes - the provenance of 'W.R. Smith' photographed at Araluen can be traced back to the rose Heather Rumsey received from Sangerhausen as Dr Grill.)
Reply #15 of 29 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
Thanks. An old known specimen of W R Smith would be very interesting to view.
When I search for Bishop's Lodge Amelia Anderson it just takes me to William R Smith. They are definitely the same rose?
Reply #16 of 29 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
Yes. David Ruston grew them for many years and so it was possible to compare the established plants over the seasons in his garden. By chance, plants of "Bishops Lodge Amelia Anderson" and "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" were positioned side by side in Melville's nursery near Perth, and we were able to study them closer to home as well.
Reply #17 of 29 posted 26 FEB by Margaret Furness
It's a survivor in old gardens in at least three states. We have as synonyms "Edna Stapleton's Tea" (SA - that's where mine came from, via Pat) and "East Nanango Forestry Tea" (Qld).
Reply #18 of 29 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
I just uploaded a couple of old catalogue photos of "Charles Dingee". The photos that Billy Teabag just posted of the Guildford WR Smith bears a striking resemblance (and Billy's tea is creamy white and pink - and very beautiful).
Now I want to grow this Guildford W R Smith.
Reply #19 of 29 posted 27 FEB by HubertG
Billy Teabag's W R Smith from Guildford looks most like Jean Harrison's photos of her W R Smith.

Do you know if this particular Guildford specimen is in commerce as I'd like to grow it? Also, it would be fabulous to upload those 2 photos under William R Smith, since they only appear under Q & C.
Reply #20 of 29 posted 1 MAR by HubertG
My specimen of Dr Grill was in fact purchased from Honeysuckle Cottage in 2002, not 8-9 years ago as I mentioned earlier. I found an old dated photo.
Reply #21 of 29 posted 6 MAR by HubertG
Just thinking about the possible origin of my Dr Grill. I bought mine from Honeysuckle Cottage in 2002. Once I also visited another nursery which was nearby to Honeysuckle either at Richmond or Windsor (I can't remember it's name either). It was run by a very elderly gent. Basically it existed of his house surrounded by a paddock full of potted roses. He had the roses I enquired about ready for me when I arrived (Jessie Clark was one). Looking around I remember he had some unusual early Hybrid Tea varieties I hadn't seen in any other nursery. There was a beautiful Columbia that I wish I had purchased at the time, and others I can't remember the names of now. I always had the impression that he had grown these old HT's for years or had sourced them locally. I don't remember him having Dr Grill specifically but I do wonder whether he had this from an old local bush and if Honeysuckle Cottage had purchased some of their stock including their Dr Grill from him because he was so close to them.
This is speculation of course, but I just can't see my Dr Grill being William R Smith; they look too different.
My bush currently has about 10 hips on it, and about the same non-developing or withered hips which doesn't add up if W R Smith is not meant to set hips. Plus my Dr Grill doesn't ball.
Reply #22 of 29 posted 14 days ago by HubertG
Some of the photos of Ah Mow look very much like my Dr Grill, although those petals look a bit more delicate and the foliage looks different.
Reply #23 of 29 posted 7 days ago by HubertG
Just an update on the question of hips. This is the hip from my Dr, Grill that I posted above on 24 Feb (the first photo). There were 10 normal looking seeds inside. I'll plant them and see if there is a good germination rate. There are about 9 other hips on my bush right now that aren't ripe yet.
Reply #24 of 29 posted 7 days ago by billy teabag
HubertG, how does your Dr Grill compare to "Comtesse Riza du Parc [in commerce as]"?
Are the receptacles always the semi-globular shape seen on your bud photo, or are they sometimes more globular like those in the old portraits?
Reply #25 of 29 posted 7 days ago by HubertG
Billy, they aren't the same rose judging from the photos. Mine always has that semi-globular receptacle and perfectly smooth glandless stems, whereas (as you note) the NotCRdP has that distinctive oval receptacle. Also, my Dr Grill flowers are usually solitary (maybe a cluster of 3-4 on a water shoot) whereas 3- 4 flowers per shoot appears to be the norm on the photos of NotCRdP.
Look at the photo by David Elliott (ID176376) of the Dr Grill growing in the Parc de la Tete d'Or. Even though that photo was posted on its side (lol) that looks like my Dr Grill and gives you an idea of the awkward habit that I imagine comes from the Noisette parent. The flowers in the background look the same as mine too. You can also see a few hips if you zoom in. If the NotCRdP sets hips on just about every flower that doesn't sound like the description of Dr Grill in the Rosen-Zeitung that describes an enthusiast being excited over 4-5 ripe hips on their Dr Grill.
How does the NotCRdP smell? My Dr Grill does have that unusual hay scent. I could never quite place what it smelt like until I read the hay reference. Then it was an 'Aha!' moment. I hadn't smelt hay in years and just couldn't put my finger on it.
Reply #26 of 29 posted 7 days ago by Margaret Furness
Well, if you feel inclined to send a few cuttings this way... Who knows, a miracle might happen, and after 4 years of rumours of "imminent purchase of Ruston's" it might just happen. And the air would be full of flying pigs.
Reply #27 of 29 posted 6 days ago by HubertG
Margaret, sure I'll send cuttings to you ladies but it'll have to wait till I collect the hips because I want to try and germinate them. In fact, using the last flush I made a few crosses using Lorraine Lee pollen and a few others. I've become intrigued with my Dr Grill because I didn't know it was so in doubt.
Reply #28 of 29 posted 6 days ago by Margaret Furness
Thank you - when the time comes, contact me via private message for my address. Good luck with the crosses!
Reply #29 of 29 posted 6 days ago by HubertG
Sure Margaret, no worries. Thanks!

Billy, I didn't answer your enquiry about the old portraits.
The receptacles are depicted differently in all three pictures. My Dr. Grill receptacle is closest to the Journal des Roses depiction, but I think my flower form is closest to the Moon painting with the outer "shell like" petals falling away displaying the centre well . The Rosen Zeitung bud receptacle is rather narrow and odd. To be honest I don't think these can be used as any sort of real botanical proof of receptacles, but they are interesting. The accurate depiction of a bud receptacle probably wasn't the greatest priority for the artist whose main purpose was to depict the flower form and colour. That Moon bud could have just been painted in for artistic balance after the main flowers were finished. The Rosen-Zeitung portrait is the hardest from which to make any sort of botanical sense. Also, I think the medium the artist used could make a big difference to the final result. The Moon painting looks like a gouache, but I really don't know how these pictures were technically reproduced back then. Maybe you could look at some of Moon's other paintings of confirmed roses to see how accurately he paints those bud details in them.
most recent 7 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 9 days ago by HubertG
From 'Dingee Guide to Rose Culture' 1912:

Under "Hardy Everblooming Tea Roses"
"ALBERT STOPFORD: It is superb, like Bon Silene, a vigorous and free bloomer, producing beautiful flowers in great profusion. The color is a very dark crimson-rose."

Page number not listed.
Reply #1 of 13 posted 9 days ago by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
Reply #2 of 13 posted 9 days ago by HubertG
You're very welcome.

I was actually wondering whether this rose was Vestey's Pink Tea? I know that this rose is listed as identical to General Schablikine, but I grow both and don't see them being the same. VPT is very similar to General Schablikine, but there are enough differences in my mind to know they aren't identical.
Considering Albert Stopford is a seedling of General Schablikine by Papa Gontier, it could fit the bill for Vestey's Pink Tea.

Do you know if Albert Stopford was sold in Australia?
Reply #3 of 13 posted 9 days ago by Margaret Furness
An intriguing thought. Could you post side-by-side comparison photos showing receptacle, bud, prickles, leaves, flowers?
Reply #4 of 13 posted 9 days ago by HubertG
Sure, the only reservation I have is that my two roses grow in different conditions. My General Schablikine is in the ground and has become huge and my Vestey's Pink is in a large pot and receives a bit less sun. The main differences I discern are in the colour where VPT is consistently less coppery pink than GS and tends to be a brighter carmine more often. The winter flowers are decidedly different with GS being more cupped shaped and VPT more long and of slightly more HT form. At other times of the year the flower form on both is very similar being that shaggy almost pompom look. The fragrance is much the same. GS I think is more prickly, The flower stems on VPT are more often less 'kinky' than GS.
I'll post a few flowers etc for comparison. I don't want to go making any great claims in case they are the same after all.

The best experiment would be to take cuttings from both and give them identical culture to see if what, if any, differences can be discerned. I'll try that.
Reply #5 of 13 posted 8 days ago by Patricia Routley
Have you obtained that book yet?
Reply #6 of 13 posted 8 days ago by HubertG
I've been reading the Tea Rose book online, and plan on putting my hands on a hard copy.

Regarding the provenances I can't be sure without looking up really old cheque butts. I think I bought my General Schablikine from Golden Vale in about 1998. I bought Vestey's Pink Tea at a guess in 2005 after I read about it in Botanica but I can't remember from where. I'll check when I have time.
Here are some photos of buds at about the same stage that I picked today (13/3/18). The colour is hard to capture accurately but GS is a warmer pink and VPT is cooler. The other noticeable difference is that usually VPT displays the long 5th sepal a la Lady Hillingdon, whereas this is rare in GS. This is what made me think that Albert Stopford could be a contender for Vestey's Pink as both Lady Hillingdon and Albert Stopford have Papa Gontier as a parent. The glands on the stem of GS, VPT and Papa Gontier all smell the same too.
Reply #7 of 13 posted 8 days ago by Margaret Furness
Thank you - that's a good start. Colours of potted plants are a problem. I had three gallicas or hybrid gallicas that should have been mauve, but in Nu-earth Premium were pink last spring. I'll have to see what they look like in the ground this year.
Reply #8 of 13 posted 8 days ago by HubertG
I think the best way to compare is to take cuttings from both and grow them in identical mix, pots, fertiliser and sun.
However over the many years I've grown them, there are too many differences for me to currently think they are the same rose.
Reply #9 of 13 posted 8 days ago by Margaret Furness
It's probably still warm enough where you are to try the doggybag technique of taking cuttings now -
see I use Perlite as aerator now, since the kittylitter formula appears to have changed, and I haven't yet found another that's suitable. Or you could send me cuttings of "Vestey's Pink Tea" if you like, to try in the ground eventually (I've had General Schab in-ground for about 9 years). A couple of Tealadies visit from time to time. Check with quarantine first re sending to SA though. Sending to WA would be better but quarantine is too much of a hurdle.
Reply #10 of 13 posted 8 days ago by HubertG
Thanks, I'll give that technique a go.
Reply #11 of 13 posted 8 days ago by Patricia Routley
......Do you know if Albert Stopford was sold in Australia?

No it was not. It did get to New Zealand, but not Australia. In my garden, both "Vestey's Pink Tea" and 'General Schablikine' are the same.
Your roses may be the same, but you are pushing roses uphill trying to compare a less-sun tea in a pot with a full-sun tea in the ground. In case they are different, to find out which of your roses is the true 'General Schablikine', watch every bloom for that S-bend curve of the consistently bristly pedicel. Then go to work on the other rose keeping 'Mme. Lambard' and 'Monsieur Tillier' in the back of your mind.
Reply #12 of 13 posted 8 days ago by HubertG
I do grow the rose that was sold in Australia as "Freiherr von Marschall" (that now seems to be re-identified as Mme Lambard) and my Vestey's isn't that. I grew a Monsier Tillier from Green E's nursery and currently have a Archiduc Joseph from Mistydown's and isn't either of those either. (I don't know if those two roses were correctly identified but they were different in any case). I don't doubt my General Schablikine is the real thing either.

I think it's best to compare cuttings grown in the same conditions. My Vestey's Pink has been moved around in a pot quite a bit and has received more sun at times and it doesn't really change that much. Conversely I have a cutting of General Schablikine growing in a small pot in a shady spot and it still puts out flowers like its parent bush.

My Vestey's Pink rarely shows much kink to the stem like GS does, but that could be cultural. However, I think that long 5th sepal must be genetic, not a cultivational difference. Few tea roses have that.

If someone has incorrectly identified Vestey's Pink Tea as General Schablikine, maybe the nurseries have merged stock and Patricia is comparing two General Schablikines. (?)

I'll let this be for now and report back when I can compare cuttings. Lastly though here are the opening flowers of the two buds I compared yesterday. The biggest noticeable difference is in the colour which is consistently less coppery in Vestey's Pink.
Reply #13 of 13 posted 7 days ago by billy teabag
It was our Tea rose study group that noticed "Vestey's Pink Tea" is the same as 'General Schablikine' while we were researching the roses for the Tea rose book. This wasn't done in haste or based on the comparison of single plants.
The roses were growing side by side in the display garden of Melvilles rose Nursery near Perth in the late 1990s and this is where we first noted that they appeared to be the same.
I have a number of quotations on the pinup board behind my computer that I find useful when researching roses and anything else for that matter. One of them is Richard Buckminster Fuller's "You uncover what is when you get rid of what isn’t." and another, this humbling one by the late Trevor Griffiths "Identification is a complex subject. The worst mistake that can be made is that you should assume the name for your particular rose is the correct one and that everyone else is wrong." (from A Celebration of Old Roses p15).

There is always a lot of that about - between the six who researched and wrote the book, we probably had every misnamed Tea rose in the country growing in our gardens so we were very aware of the perils of mislabeling and the difficulties that can arise when sorting out which (and whose) roses are correctly named. To check for the possibility that Melvilles might have a misnamed rose, we ordered roses from a number of interstate nurseries and, in this case, we always received the same rose under the name "Vestey's Pink Tea". 'General Schablikine' was a different matter - apart from 'General Schablikine labelled 'General Schablikine', some nurseries were sending out 'Mons Tillier' as 'General Schablikine' and some sent 'General Gallieni' (and vice versa). We also received "[not] Souvenir d'Un Ami" with a 'General Schablikine' label.

For our book to be useful, we needed to know whether we (ie, East, Central and West Australian gardeners) were growing the same Tea roses under the same names and, if there were discrepancies, to understand what and where they were, and how they come about. So we took every opportunity to visit collections in nurseries and gardens in other states. Of course there were discrepancies - even with the utmost diligence, there are inevitably occasional errors in labeling and once they get into a distribution stream, the errors spread, sometimes quite widely. The good news was that the discrepancies were where they were expected to be, and thanks to information shared by nursery people and rose collectors, for reasons we came to understand.
Rustons Roses, at that time the main supplier of budwood to Australian rose nurseries, had stock plants of both 'General Schablikine' and "Vestey's Pink Tea" and we had the opportunity to examine them closely on a number of visits to the garden in Renmark. 'General Schablikine', like most Teas, varies in bloom form and colour with the seasons and in response to different conditions and rootstocks but at Rustons Roses, as in Melville's Nursery, the roses were undoubtedly the same. After we drew David Ruston's attention to this he watched his plants like a hawk and after a number of years he told us he was in complete agreement.
We were satisfied the roses were the same before publishing the information.
It is always good to have an analytical eye on rose identification work. Thank you for your careful observations and reasoning. I hope you are able to strike cuttings of both your roses and to eventually grow them in the same conditions and that this discussion can continue in the future. With enough time and patience, the roses do give up their answers.
most recent 11 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 23 FEB by Patricia Routley
Checking first with other growers. I would like to add a Note to the 'William R. Smith' page to the effect that it sets no hips. I have never noted a hip on my bushes and nearly all of my blooms end up perfect for dried flower arrangements [!] I have added the Tea Roses. Old Roses For Warm Gardens reference which notes "no hip seen".
Reply #1 of 5 posted 24 FEB by Margaret Furness
No hips as such on mine at present. I'll keep watching the current batch of spent blooms.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
I'll do the same.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 12 days ago by HubertG
There is only one descendant of William R Smith listed here (and that was where WRS was used as the pollen parent). I haven't grown this rose, so I don't know if it produces hips or not from experience, but one would assume that if such an esteemed and beautiful rose were fertile, it would have been pounced on by the breeders at the time to be used to produce offspring. It was most probably infertile but I'm only speculating.
Reply #4 of 5 posted 12 days ago by Patricia Routley
And I'll betcha two bob to a pinch of salt that the long-gone descendant, 'Mrs. R. M. King' (Mme. Abel Chatenay x William R Smith) was, in fact, a self pollinated 'Mme. Abel Chatenay'. The only real reference, 1931, says "too much like Abel Chatenay". We will never know, of course, but it gives credence to your speculation that William R. Smith is sterile
Reply #5 of 5 posted 11 days ago by HubertG
Patricia, I was thinking exactly the same thing when I posted that above.
I imagine W R Smith takes after its mother Maman Cochet in the fertility department.

Incidentally, I have a hip on my White Maman Cochet and I have never seen this before. I left it to develop but it has partially split so I'm expecting it to rot, but you can see developing seeds inside.
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