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Initial post yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
What are the differences between sepal and calyx?
Reply #1 of 2 posted today by Patricia Routley
Mr. Collins (dictionary - my teacher on all things botanical) tells us:
Sepal: any of the separate parts of the calyx of a flower.
Calyx: The sepals of a flower collectively, forming the outer floral envelope that protects the developing flower bud.
Corolla: the petals of a flower collectively, forming an inner floral envelope,
Reply #2 of 2 posted today by Andrew from Dolton
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Initial post yesterday by Diana B
The entry for 'Henry Fonda' says parents are 'Baron Girod de l'Ain' x 'Sunbright,' although there's then a note underneath that says "The seed parent of 'Baron Girod de l'Ain' is doubtful. Refer Patent and comments."

I'm a volunteer at the Huntington Library's Rose Garden, so I asked Tom Carruth about this (because he knows I love 'Baron Girod de l'Ain'). He says he was Jack Christensen's assistant at the time this rose was developed and that Jack never used 'Baron Girod de l'Ain' as a parent. As the patent says, the parentage is seedling x seedling. Feel free to verify this with Tom at

Anyway, I thought you might like to know so that you can correct the entry for 'Henry Fonda'
Reply #1 of 1 posted yesterday by Patricia Routley
Thank you for your trouble Diana. Parentage corrected.
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Initial post 1 MAR by HubertG
A speculative question about Alexander Hill Gray:-
Reading the earliest descriptions for this rose, two things strike me as being discordant to the rose I've grown as AHG. Firstly the yellow colour is described as deepening as the flower develops (mine always fades) and secondly the tea fragrance is described as strong (mine is tea but very weak).
This rose because of it's fine form was understandably marketed as Yellow Maman Cochet. However another rose Mme Derepas-Matrat, introduced by Buatois in 1897 was also called Yellow Maman Cochet. This rose was thornless or nearly so, with little scent and sometimes flushed pink.
The rose I grow in Australia as AHG is nearly thornless with conspicuously smooth stems, a feature that is missing on the early descriptions of AHG.
I'm wondering if the rose grown in Australia as Alexander Hill Gray is really Mme Derepas-Matrat and has been mixed up due to both being called Yellow Maman Cochet.
Does anyone know the provenance of this rose as grown in Australia? Does anyone find the fragrance of AHG strong?
Reply #1 of 4 posted 1 MAR by Patricia Routley
Thornlessness is mentioned in the 2008 reference and I have added that characteristic to 'Alexander Hill Gray'. Thanks.
Do you have the book Tea Roses. Old Roses for Warm Gardens? Provenance of 'Alexander Hill Gray' is also mentioned on p79.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 1 MAR by HubertG
I googled it and found the reference to it being rediscovered. Thanks. It just seemed odd that when the early catalogues extol and almost exaggerate every virtue of a new rose that the thornless nature wasn't included in early descriptions, and that the other 'Yellow Cochet' was described as thornless. I thought that there might have been a mix up very early on in the 20th century.
My AHG sets hips by the way. Not many, but it does set hips.

The fragrance could never be described as strong though.
Reply #3 of 4 posted yesterday by HubertG
Just an additional note:
Both 'Alex Hill Gray' and 'Yellow Maman Cochet' are offered and described as separate rose varieties in the 1918 'Dingee Guide to Rose Culture' catalogue.

No reference to the 1897 Buatois rose is made as an alternative name for Yellow Maman Cochet, whereas 'Etoile de France' is given as the synonym for 'Crimson Maman Cochet', so it isn't clear whether the variety they offer as 'Yellow Maman Cochet' is really Mme Derepas-Metrat.
'Souvenir de Pierre Notting, the other rose sometimes called the Yellow Maman Cochet, is also listed separately in the Dingee guide, so that isn't their Yellow Cochet either.
Reply #4 of 4 posted yesterday by Margaret Furness
The Dingee catalogue has given you some fascinating research. One comment though: the early English-speaking rose-writers rarely commented on whether a rose had thorns - because they had gardeners to do the hands-on work. For the writers, thorns weren't important, compared to the rose's showbench potential.
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Initial post yesterday by rozica
I would be very happy if you could help me with identifying this rose. I'm from Croatia (country in Central and South-east Europe, on the Adriatic Sea), so it's pretty worm at summer. This rose grows in a bush shape, the bush is around 1.5 meters high and wide and her flowers have strong and beautiful smell. The rose bush is probably around 100 years old, and she starts blossoming in May. It does bloom only for about a month, it does have a lot of flowers, but they don't last too long. It looses leaves in winter.

Here are some images which I posted in another forum, but unfortunately they werent able to help me. They said it's probably an Old Garden Rose.

Thank you in advance :)
Reply #1 of 3 posted yesterday by Nastarana
You might try looking through Bourbon roses at HMF.

I suppose Geschwind's roses would have been sold in Croatia?

How cold are your winters?
Reply #2 of 3 posted yesterday by rozica
I looked to every single one of them, and I haven't managed to fined it. Is it possible that it's a type of Damask roses?

The scent of this rose is very strong, and it smells like rose water. My mother made syrup out of her petals.

It is not lower than -10 Celsius.
Reply #3 of 3 posted yesterday by Patricia Routley
I think it is a Damask. It reminds me of Joasine Hanet (Damask Perp., Vibert, 1847) which has more of a button eye than I can see in your photos.
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