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Initial post 3 JUN by Glennis Clark
I think this is the rose named after Roy Rumsey's second Granddaughter, Marie-Christina.
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Reply #1 of 1 posted today by Patricia Routley
Glennis, I have been unable to find anything further on 'Marie Christina'. There are a couple of references which say it is a Kordes rose. However, Kordes do not know of a rose by that name. If anybody knows of a Code name, that would help.
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Initial post today by JasonSims1984
Who knows where I can get a start of californica? I have seen the nurseries listed, but they are out of the country. I can't import it. There has to be somebody who grows this species in the country. Or has some seeds to trade :)
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Reply #1 of 6 posted today by Rupert, Kim L.
I will add it to the list, Jason. I have the R. Californica they selected to grow in the Historic Sacramento Cemetery in Sacramento, Ca. There are suckers exiting the bottom of the container and it needs cleaning up, anyway.
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Reply #2 of 6 posted today by Kathy Strong's Del Cerro Garden
I was going to say there are many variations on rosa californica. I have one also that is probably not the one the good folks in Sacto "selected." What I have is one I got originally from the Native plants nursery on the outskirts of San Juan Capistrano called Tree of Life Nursery. They also have Rosa minutifolia, which you would probably also like. However, since you don't say where you are, I guess there are two options here -- come get a piece of mine in San Diego, or drive on out Highway 74 in San Juan Capistrano if that is closer. Or get Kim's.

ps Forestfarms.com in Oregon is another good place to get most species roses, but I don't see californica on their list at the moment. It might be too common for them.
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Reply #3 of 6 posted today by JasonSims1984
I'm actually currently in San Diego! I would love to come and get a piece of some minutifolia and/or some californica! Email me and I'll give you my cell phone number :).
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Reply #5 of 6 posted today by Kathy Strong's Del Cerro Garden
Well then, I should probably also invite you to the San Diego Rose Society meeting tomorrow night, Monday, June 18, at which our topic will be hybridizing roses. Come one, come all, 7 pm at Casa Del Prado, room 101, in Balboa Park. If you haven't been there before, it's across the street from the museum of natural history and next door to the junior theater bldg.
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Reply #6 of 6 posted today by JasonSims1984
No way! That's fantastic! I'm so excited! I have been obsessively reading about roses for weeks now. And now you say you have the rose I am looking for and you have it miraculously here in the place I am visiting next to the rose garden that I love to visit and I get to attend a rose group meeting tommorow night! Pinch me. I will be there.
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Reply #4 of 6 posted today by JasonSims1984
Thanks Kim!
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Initial post 12 MAR by HubertG
From 'Dingee Guide to Rose Culture' 1912:

Under "Hardy Everblooming Tea Roses"
"ALBERT STOPFORD: It is superb, like Bon Silene, a vigorous and free bloomer, producing beautiful flowers in great profusion. The color is a very dark crimson-rose."

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dingee_guide_to_rose_culture_-_for_more_than_60_years_an_authority_(1915)_(20767762698).jpg

Page number not listed.
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Reply #1 of 15 posted 12 MAR by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
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Reply #2 of 15 posted 12 MAR by HubertG
You're very welcome.

I was actually wondering whether this rose was Vestey's Pink Tea? I know that this rose is listed as identical to General Schablikine, but I grow both and don't see them being the same. VPT is very similar to General Schablikine, but there are enough differences in my mind to know they aren't identical.
Considering Albert Stopford is a seedling of General Schablikine by Papa Gontier, it could fit the bill for Vestey's Pink Tea.

Do you know if Albert Stopford was sold in Australia?
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Reply #3 of 15 posted 12 MAR by Margaret Furness
An intriguing thought. Could you post side-by-side comparison photos showing receptacle, bud, prickles, leaves, flowers?
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Reply #4 of 15 posted 12 MAR by HubertG
Sure, the only reservation I have is that my two roses grow in different conditions. My General Schablikine is in the ground and has become huge and my Vestey's Pink is in a large pot and receives a bit less sun. The main differences I discern are in the colour where VPT is consistently less coppery pink than GS and tends to be a brighter carmine more often. The winter flowers are decidedly different with GS being more cupped shaped and VPT more long and of slightly more HT form. At other times of the year the flower form on both is very similar being that shaggy almost pompom look. The fragrance is much the same. GS I think is more prickly, The flower stems on VPT are more often less 'kinky' than GS.
I'll post a few flowers etc for comparison. I don't want to go making any great claims in case they are the same after all.

The best experiment would be to take cuttings from both and give them identical culture to see if what, if any, differences can be discerned. I'll try that.
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Reply #5 of 15 posted 13 MAR by Patricia Routley
Provenances?
Have you obtained that book yet?
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Reply #6 of 15 posted 13 MAR by HubertG
I've been reading the Tea Rose book online, and plan on putting my hands on a hard copy.

Regarding the provenances I can't be sure without looking up really old cheque butts. I think I bought my General Schablikine from Golden Vale in about 1998. I bought Vestey's Pink Tea at a guess in 2005 after I read about it in Botanica but I can't remember from where. I'll check when I have time.
Here are some photos of buds at about the same stage that I picked today (13/3/18). The colour is hard to capture accurately but GS is a warmer pink and VPT is cooler. The other noticeable difference is that usually VPT displays the long 5th sepal a la Lady Hillingdon, whereas this is rare in GS. This is what made me think that Albert Stopford could be a contender for Vestey's Pink as both Lady Hillingdon and Albert Stopford have Papa Gontier as a parent. The glands on the stem of GS, VPT and Papa Gontier all smell the same too.
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Reply #7 of 15 posted 13 MAR by Margaret Furness
Thank you - that's a good start. Colours of potted plants are a problem. I had three gallicas or hybrid gallicas that should have been mauve, but in Nu-earth Premium were pink last spring. I'll have to see what they look like in the ground this year.
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Reply #8 of 15 posted 13 MAR by HubertG
I think the best way to compare is to take cuttings from both and grow them in identical mix, pots, fertiliser and sun.
However over the many years I've grown them, there are too many differences for me to currently think they are the same rose.
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Reply #9 of 15 posted 13 MAR by Margaret Furness
It's probably still warm enough where you are to try the doggybag technique of taking cuttings now -
see http://heritage.rose.org.au/rose-propagation I use Perlite as aerator now, since the kittylitter formula appears to have changed, and I haven't yet found another that's suitable. Or you could send me cuttings of "Vestey's Pink Tea" if you like, to try in the ground eventually (I've had General Schab in-ground for about 9 years). A couple of Tealadies visit from time to time. Check with quarantine first re sending to SA though. Sending to WA would be better but quarantine is too much of a hurdle.
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Reply #10 of 15 posted 13 MAR by HubertG
Thanks, I'll give that technique a go.
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Reply #11 of 15 posted 13 MAR by Patricia Routley
......Do you know if Albert Stopford was sold in Australia?

No it was not. It did get to New Zealand, but not Australia. In my garden, both "Vestey's Pink Tea" and 'General Schablikine' are the same.
Your roses may be the same, but you are pushing roses uphill trying to compare a less-sun tea in a pot with a full-sun tea in the ground. In case they are different, to find out which of your roses is the true 'General Schablikine', watch every bloom for that S-bend curve of the consistently bristly pedicel. Then go to work on the other rose keeping 'Mme. Lambard' and 'Monsieur Tillier' in the back of your mind.
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Reply #12 of 15 posted 13 MAR by HubertG
I do grow the rose that was sold in Australia as "Freiherr von Marschall" (that now seems to be re-identified as Mme Lambard) and my Vestey's isn't that. I grew a Monsier Tillier from Green E's nursery and currently have a Archiduc Joseph from Mistydown's and isn't either of those either. (I don't know if those two roses were correctly identified but they were different in any case). I don't doubt my General Schablikine is the real thing either.

I think it's best to compare cuttings grown in the same conditions. My Vestey's Pink has been moved around in a pot quite a bit and has received more sun at times and it doesn't really change that much. Conversely I have a cutting of General Schablikine growing in a small pot in a shady spot and it still puts out flowers like its parent bush.

My Vestey's Pink rarely shows much kink to the stem like GS does, but that could be cultural. However, I think that long 5th sepal must be genetic, not a cultivational difference. Few tea roses have that.

If someone has incorrectly identified Vestey's Pink Tea as General Schablikine, maybe the nurseries have merged stock and Patricia is comparing two General Schablikines. (?)

I'll let this be for now and report back when I can compare cuttings. Lastly though here are the opening flowers of the two buds I compared yesterday. The biggest noticeable difference is in the colour which is consistently less coppery in Vestey's Pink.
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Reply #13 of 15 posted 14 MAR by billy teabag
It was our Tea rose study group that noticed "Vestey's Pink Tea" is the same as 'General Schablikine' while we were researching the roses for the Tea rose book. This wasn't done in haste or based on the comparison of single plants.
The roses were growing side by side in the display garden of Melvilles rose Nursery near Perth in the late 1990s and this is where we first noted that they appeared to be the same.
I have a number of quotations on the pinup board behind my computer that I find useful when researching roses and anything else for that matter. One of them is Richard Buckminster Fuller's "You uncover what is when you get rid of what isn’t." and another, this humbling one by the late Trevor Griffiths "Identification is a complex subject. The worst mistake that can be made is that you should assume the name for your particular rose is the correct one and that everyone else is wrong." (from A Celebration of Old Roses p15).

There is always a lot of that about - between the six who researched and wrote the book, we probably had every misnamed Tea rose in the country growing in our gardens so we were very aware of the perils of mislabeling and the difficulties that can arise when sorting out which (and whose) roses are correctly named. To check for the possibility that Melvilles might have a misnamed rose, we ordered roses from a number of interstate nurseries and, in this case, we always received the same rose under the name "Vestey's Pink Tea". 'General Schablikine' was a different matter - apart from 'General Schablikine labelled 'General Schablikine', some nurseries were sending out 'Mons Tillier' as 'General Schablikine' and some sent 'General Gallieni' (and vice versa). We also received "[not] Souvenir d'Un Ami" with a 'General Schablikine' label.

For our book to be useful, we needed to know whether we (ie, East, Central and West Australian gardeners) were growing the same Tea roses under the same names and, if there were discrepancies, to understand what and where they were, and how they come about. So we took every opportunity to visit collections in nurseries and gardens in other states. Of course there were discrepancies - even with the utmost diligence, there are inevitably occasional errors in labeling and once they get into a distribution stream, the errors spread, sometimes quite widely. The good news was that the discrepancies were where they were expected to be, and thanks to information shared by nursery people and rose collectors, for reasons we came to understand.
Rustons Roses, at that time the main supplier of budwood to Australian rose nurseries, had stock plants of both 'General Schablikine' and "Vestey's Pink Tea" and we had the opportunity to examine them closely on a number of visits to the garden in Renmark. 'General Schablikine', like most Teas, varies in bloom form and colour with the seasons and in response to different conditions and rootstocks but at Rustons Roses, as in Melville's Nursery, the roses were undoubtedly the same. After we drew David Ruston's attention to this he watched his plants like a hawk and after a number of years he told us he was in complete agreement.
We were satisfied the roses were the same before publishing the information.
It is always good to have an analytical eye on rose identification work. Thank you for your careful observations and reasoning. I hope you are able to strike cuttings of both your roses and to eventually grow them in the same conditions and that this discussion can continue in the future. With enough time and patience, the roses do give up their answers.
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Reply #14 of 15 posted yesterday by HubertG
From the 'Journal des Roses' 1914, page 165

"Albert Stopford (thé) - Fleur très grande, pleine, uniflore à grands sépales, très grand pétales épais, coloris rose foncé carminé brillant, centre cuivré, pétales exterieurs carmin foncé recourbés gracieusement, bouton allongé, très bien fait, porté par une longue tige, grand feuillage, très fort bois, épines fortes; arbuste très vigoureux, très florifere (odorante). Issue de Général Schablikine et de Papa Gontier."

My translation:
Albert Stopford (Tea) - Flower very large, full, solitary with large sepals, very large thick petals, colour bright dark carmine pink, centre coppery, outer petals dark carmine recurving gracefully, long bud, very well formed, carried on a long stem, grand foliage, very strong wood, strong thorns; bush very vigorous, very floriferous (fragrant). Seedling from General Schablikine by Papa Gontier.

Note: I've translated "grand feuillage" as grand foliage rather than large foliage. Had feuilles (leaves) been used rather than feuillage (foliage) "large" might have made more sense, but I get the impression it means great/grand/good etc foliage, rather than large leaflets. Maybe someone French might correct this.

Also note the interesting description of the large sepals.


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From the Rosen-Zeitung 1899, page 29:

"Neuste Rosen für 1899.

Züchter: P. C. Nabonnand

Albert Stopford (Thee). Blume glänzend dunkelkarminrosa, Centrum kupfrig, sehr gross, gefüllt, duftend, einzelständig, langknospig. Pflanze sehr kräftig, sehr wohlr. (Général Schablikine x Papa Gontier)."

My translation:
Newest Roses for 1899.
Breeder: P. C. Nabonnand.
Albert Stopford (Tea). Flower bright dark carmine pink, centre coppery, very large, full, scented, solitary, long-budded. Plant very vigorous, very fine. (General Schablikine x Papa Gontier).


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From the Rosen-Zeitung 1899, page 54

"Albert Stopford (Nabonnand) wird durch die grosse, schöne, gefüllte, langknospige Blume ebenso wie durch die hübsche rote Farbe gefallen."

My translation:
Albert Stopford (Nabonnand) will please with its large, beautiful, full, long-budded flower as well as with the pretty red colour.
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Reply #15 of 15 posted today by Patricia Routley
References added. Thanks HubertG
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Initial post 29 SEP 13 by Massad, Dominique
Parentage is Valchlea x Michele Bedrossian
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Reply #1 of 7 posted 8 days ago by Michael Garhart
*Bump.
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Reply #2 of 7 posted 8 days ago by Patricia Routley
Oh dear. That has been sitting there for five years. Thanks Michael.
Dominique - you do know that you can add any information at all to your own roses, don't you? But, if you can't get to things, we are very happy to add them for you. Things usually get done before a five year time limit as a rule.
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Reply #3 of 7 posted 8 days ago by Michael Garhart
He makes some real neato hybrids, so its nice to have a record.
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Reply #4 of 7 posted 7 days ago by Massad, Dominique
Hello,
Yes, I know.
But on many of my varieties, I do not have the possibility because HMF did not give me access despite I asked several times.
Here is the list of non accessible varieties.
Sincerely
List :
Anjou velo vintage
Au bonheur des dames
Belle de segosa
Bernard Mas
Centenaire de l’Haÿ-les-roses
Cepcor(rose Delacroix)
Chapeau de mireille
Charles de Nervaux
Château de Guillerval
Chloroph’iles
Chistian Tetedoie
Clair de plume
Credit mutuel
Diablesse de Mers
Dino de laurentis
Docteurs Massad
Domaine du couloubrier
Domaine Saint Jacques du Couloubrier
Durance ancian rosa
Elodie Gossuin
Eridion
Florian Massad
Frederic Mège
Froufroutante Jackie
Gil
Henri le sidaner
Irène Frain
Jardiniers du paradis
Jef l’artiste
Kizuna
La calissonne
La clé de la rose
Ladurée
Lamartine à Tresserves
Laurent Cabrol
L’élégante du Pyla
Les potes de Bedros
Les Yvelines
L’essile
Lettre à Nadine
Louis Francia
Ludivine Massad
Mamiethalène
Marceleine
Marie Bonnafoux-buisson
Marseille en fleurs
Millard de martigny
Michelle Bedrossian
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Reply #5 of 7 posted 6 days ago by HMF Admin
This is an error on our part, of course you should be able to update any existing listings of your roses, as well as add new ones. This issue will be corrected this week.
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Reply #6 of 7 posted 6 days ago by Michael Garhart
Woohoo ^_^
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Reply #7 of 7 posted today by HMF Admin
This has been corrected. You should have access to all your roses now. If you be so kind as to confirm please.

Other breeders, or discoverers, wishing to have access to THEIR rose listings should contact the support department. We will rescind this ability if used improperly, for example, commercializing a listing.
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