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"Camnethan Cherry Red" rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 90-085
most recent 4 OCT 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 2 JAN 16 by scvirginia
Has anyone considered 'Beauty of Rosemawr' as a possible match? Some of the photos look similar to me... especially buds, flowers and habit; hard to compare foliage from the photos at HMF...

There isn't a whole lot of info about this foundling on its description page... is it fragrant?, etc.

Reply #1 of 7 posted 3 JAN 16 by Patricia Routley
I have added the contenders to the Notes on the main page. These are the roses that I have considered in the past and are only one person's opinions. Other opinions are difficult to glean, but if anyone has any clues to offer, they would be most welcome and we will change the page accordingly.

I'll get to work and add a few botanical details.
Reply #2 of 7 posted 3 JAN 16 by billy teabag
Thanks for the suggestion. I grow both roses and they are definitely not the same.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 3 JAN 16 by scvirginia
Does your 'Beauty of Rosemawr' look like the one hmfusr has posted so many photos of? I wonder if there might be more than one rose in commerce as 'BoR'... at least in Australia. I did hear from someone in the U.S. who ordered 'BoR' years ago and got Ragged Robin (which I think is AKA Gloire des Rosomanes') instead, but that could have just been an isolated shipping error.

Reply #4 of 7 posted 4 JAN 16 by billy teabag
I see what you mean Virginia.
No - my 'Beauty of Rosemawr' doesn't look like the lovely rose in hmfusr's photos - and yes! that rose looks a lot like "Camnethan Cherry Red".
The rose I grow under the name 'Beauty of Rosemawr' was from Peter Ellis who obtained the budwood from Ruston's Roses a few years ago.
It's a fairly compact, overly prickly shrub that produces very generous inflorescences and repeats rapidly.
In my conditions, the blooms tend to be smaller and have many more petals than "Camnethan Cherry Red". It's generous and showy.
Our plant of "Camnethan Cherry Red" is more sparse and airy in habit and is far less prickly, though it may be more compact on its own roots or on a different understock as roses budded onto Fortuniana tend to be more stretched.
Hideous hot weather at the moment and any blooms are crispy and at their summer extreme. I'll take some photos showing my two side by side asap and share them here.
Reply #7 of 7 posted 4 OCT 18 by hmfusr
My plant is also very sparse, and tall. Leaves smallish, tender/soft. It and Titian along with Lorraine Lee are my champion winter bloomers.
Reply #5 of 7 posted 4 JAN 16 by billy teabag
I'll try to upload some comparative photos of what we grow as "Camnethan Cherry Red" and 'Beauty of Rosemawr' here and add some to their sites.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 4 JAN 16 by scvirginia
Despite the horrible heat, your 'BoR' looks fetching; the "CCR" also looks pretty good, though it doesn't seem to be a bloom with much structure, as you say.

Clearly not the same rose, and while I was wondering about hmfusr's plant, I don't know if it is 'CCR' or 'Gloire de Rosomanes', or (as seems likely) something else. I wish I knew- it looks- and sounds- like a good rose.

Discussion id : 82-859
most recent 2 SEP 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 29 JAN 15 by Give me caffeine
Mistydowns are stocking this one now

Also, I'm no expert but the Tea rose book describes this one as tall and upright, which in their parlance means around 2 metres or so, while descriptions of 'Princesse de Sagan' say it is a small bush of up to 80 cm.
Reply #1 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Margaret Furness
David Elliott's photo of a bush labelled P de S at Lyon looks more like the 2m, but of course it may not be correctly identified.
Reply #2 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Jane Z
Height, width & depth of between 1.8-2m would be expected for "Camnethan Cherry Red" in most areas where Teas grow. For whatever reason, sizes given in some Australian catalogues do not reflect the growth that 'local' conditions will produce. Photo's taken July 2006 central west NSW Australia
Reply #3 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Give me caffeine
Yes I've noticed that about sizes in catalogues. Mistydowns often seems to give sizes that make sense for a youngish bush in a cooler climate, or for a heavily pruned bush, but when other sources are checked they'll often indicate rampant growth and up to twice the size, depending.

I have a suspicion that some nurseries rely mainly on customers who have suburban gardens, and don't want to scare off the punters, so give sizes that indicate what it can be kept to without killing it instead of sizes that the thing will naturally aim for if given half a chance.
Reply #9 of 12 posted 3 JAN 16 by billy teabag
Worth a thousand words. Brilliant! Thanks Jane.
Reply #4 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Patricia Routley
Why are you connecting these two different roses?
Reply #5 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Margaret Furness
A rose identical with "Camnethan Cherry Red" was seen in the US (by one or more of the Tealadies, as far as I remember) labelled 'Princesse de Sagan'. I hope they will comment further.
As you know, the rose sold in Aus as P de S is incorrect. So photos of P de S from Australia should be disregarded, really.
Reply #6 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Give me caffeine
IanM's comment below, Discussion id : 57-888, mentions he thinks it is P de S. I saw his comment when posting mine.
Reply #7 of 12 posted 30 JAN 15 by Patricia Routley
If you listen hard enough, I am sure you will find 365 different opinions from all over the world on a rose.
I try to form my own opinions and it seems to me that the 'Princesse de Sagan' references for 1887, 1898, 1906, 1907, 1916 and 1921 all point to this original rose being a small bush.

My 15-year old, unpruned "Camnethan Cherry Red" on its own roots is about 2 metres high.
Reply #8 of 12 posted 30 JAN 15 by Margaret Furness
Jedmar's comment on his photos of Princesse de Sagan ex Loubert are of interest - maybe mislabelled, maybe Prof Ganiviat (which is what the Aus-sold rose is considered most likely to be). So I wonder if the tall rose labelled P de S, photographed by David Elliot at Lyon, was from the same source.
Reply #10 of 12 posted 31 AUG 18 by Aussie rose lover
Margret you mention Professeur Graniviat as the likely contender for what many are calling Princesses de Sagan .IN this you are quite correct I believe .The Professeur is A cherry pink/ red and like many ,doesn't tend to have the white stripe that occasionally comes in the red varieties. Growth habitats are slightly different but you would need to be familiar with both to appreciate this. On the whole the Professeur is the slightly better rose I feel. But that is just me and I tend to be fairly tough and if I don't like something I either won't grew it or it gets pulled out and binned. I have several new roses which after four years are about to meet the bin.I wonder why they were released as the deleted ones even if they had black spot were still better plants.
Reply #11 of 12 posted 1 SEP 18 by Margaret Furness
I'm increasingly of the opinion that there are too many roses.
Reply #12 of 12 posted 2 SEP 18 by HubertG
Margaret, LOL!
Discussion id : 57-888
most recent 31 AUG 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 12 OCT 11 by IanM
I tend to agree with others who have suggested this rose might actually be 'Princess de Sagan'. It is a reasonably good match for some early illustrations of that rose. It certainly has characteristics that seem closer to a china rose than a typical tea rose.
Reply #1 of 5 posted 11 MAY 18 by Aussie rose lover
Thisrose 'Camnethan Cherry Red' is not I believe the true Princesses de Sagan. I AM VERY LUCKY and privileged to have seen it as lad of five_ six weeding and old garden for an old lady neighbour in 1968 and latter.The real Princesse is maroon,ox blood mulberry imperial purple velvet red with imperial purple showing upmore as she matures. SEMI double to lightly double dry light sweet tea and her am scents abd very thornyand prickly
A very erect grower up to 9 to 10 feet tall. Not that bushy.after the other princesses de Sagan I will say that Australia's rose currently using that name is a mystery.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 11 AUG 18 by HubertG
Aussie rose lover, do you think that that bush of Princesse de Sagan might still be growing there?

Also I'm wondering if Betty Berkeley could be a contender for Camnethan Cherry Red.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 31 AUG 18 by Aussie rose lover
The real princesses de Sagan is growing here as is white lord tarquin and sixteen other tea roses that I am working on.
Reply #4 of 5 posted 31 AUG 18 by Aussie rose lover
The bush Princesses de Sagan is growing here in Inverell new south wales along with a whole group of others including one that could be Alfred K. Williams which is a HP. And very near thornless.
The real Princesse de Sagan is very thorny and prickly.It doesn't set many seeds either and unlike Francis Dubreuil doesn't have a strong scent but it does have a moderate one. That maybe because of nasal infections over the years my ability to scent roses isn't very good anymore.
Princesse de Sagan also tends to be a very narrow upright shrub.It is only by there greatest of chances that I have found it again.after all these years.but like Francis Dubreuil once seen never forgotten.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 31 AUG 18 by Aussie rose lover
Betty Berkeley could be a contender for camnethan cherry red but the is another possibility as well. I have narrowed it to two both of which I have seen years ago.I am waiting for new growth this spring before final confirmation I have a name for lady vesteys yellow and another found yellow as well and maybe eight more old teas that have bugged people over the years. With regards to the garden that I used to weed in south Australia for a lady and her son I don't know if it is there anymore as I haven't been back to my home in 20 yes because of straightened circumstances. Which is very annoying.
Discussion id : 90-401
most recent 16 JAN 16 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 16 JAN 16 by Patricia Routley
For hmfusr who said in 'Beauty of Rosemawr' comments: "I think my rose may well be 'Cramoisi Superieur'.
I don't. I think it is "Camnethan Cherry Red".
Check out the size of the leaves against the flowers in Billy's photo of Agrippina' (syn Cramoisi Superieur').
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