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Initial post
11 JAN 18 by
NikosR
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Does anybody know if there is a structure beneath this rose or it is standalone?
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There might have been a tree once, but if so, it has been swallowed.
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#2 of 14 posted
22 JAN 18 by
NikosR
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Thanks. Any idea how old this might be?
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Or if this bush is 'La Mortola' or R. brunonii? We still have photos of this bush in both files.
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It was labelled R. brunonii when I photographed it a few years ago and the blooms and foliage seemed of normal R. brunonii size. The 'La Mortola' I saw in Regents Park had significantly larger individual blooms and larger leaflets.
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According to Grahame Stuart Thomas, Climbing Roses Old and New: ...large pure white flowers in good clusters, the petals having distinctly mucronate apieces;...
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Thanks for that Andrew. You might have just nailed it.
The 1843 ref for R. brunonii says petals "rounded approaching obcordate" which I read as ...blunt heart-shaped.
Graham Stuart Thomas says of La Mortola "petals having distinctly mucronate apices" which I read as ...petals with tiny pointed tips.
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From Stern's Botanical Latin.
Mucronatus (Mucronate): abruptly terminated by a hard short point.
You can clearly see this on one of the pictures from billy teabag.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.310678
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Some of the petals on the close-up view of the Mt Lofty plant appear to have peaks, others not. I'll transfer both photos to R brunonii.
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And some of the pictures posted as Brunonii have pointy petals too:
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.267270
A lot of the pictures seem to have mixtures mucronate and obcordate petals often on the same flower. Perhaps both types are muddled or G. S. T. is mistaken.
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I have added to, slightly, the 1969 reference for 'La Mortola'. Mr. Thomas (who was selling 'La Mortola' at Sunningdale Nurseries) said that R. brunonii "varies" and 'La Mortola' was "an ideal garden form". Not much to go on, but Billy has said (above) 'La Mortola' had "significantly larger individual blooms and larger leaflets". I am not sure if there are any public gardens growing both R. brunonii and 'La Mortola' within a reasonable distance, but photos showing an average leaf from both, and an average bloom from both would be interesting.
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I was under the impression that 'La Mortola' was a more tender form of brunonii or as stated in the profile hybrid moschata. My only experience with brunonii is at an employer's garden in Devon where it grew tolerably well on a cold and damp north facing wall. 'La Mortola' would not grow here it would need warmer drier conditions, especially in the summer, like experienced at Villa Hanbury or as in billy tea bag's photographs, Regent's Park London. I don't believe it would grow well in my garden, the winters would be fine but the summer would not have sufficient warmth or dryness. Incidentally, it is slightly confusing that on the profile it says "Hybrid Moschata, Species / Wild" but further down, "Hybrid of r. brunonii"
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I do not have the knowledge to do anything about that classification. Perhaps others can?
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I grew my plant from Ron Duncan's plant that I was told was Himalayan Musk. 1999 I think from my cutting bed plans. I see I tried cuttings of Rosa brunonii from Hahndorf Cottage Garden when HRIA pruned his roses in 2000 ( run by Alan Campbell back then before he became the gardener at The Cedars) and from Ron Duncan again 1.8.01 of Himalayan Musk. It was when Phillip Robinson and Gregg Lowery visited that they said it was 'La Mortola'.
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Pat - when you're next in London in summer, it would be good if you could check out what Regents Park has as 'La Mortola' as I think you would be the only one to judge whether your rose is the same.
All the nurseries over here offered R. brunonii as R. moschata or Himalayan Musk when I first started growing roses and those names persist in gardens from that time.
GST tried to correct the error when he realised it couldn't be R. moschata but by then it was in public and private gardens and nurseries all over the world under the other names.
Definitely one of the old chestnuts.
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