HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 17 AUG HIDE POSTS
Initial post 17 AUG by NikosR
Extreme balling tendencies in my climate. Best flush of the season which is in early spring is ruined every single year.
most recent 10 JUN SHOW ALL
Initial post 29 SEP 16 by NikosR
I believe the bush form of Paul Lede is extinct (or at least not available in commerce as such) and most probably all photos displayed under this entry should be under cl. Paul Lede. I know for a fact that Oldrosarian's photo of Paul Lede is of the climbing form (from discussions in Gardenweb) and this form has been reintroduced in commerce recently as Mons. Paul Lede by Palantine in Canada from budwood supplied by her. In Europe cl. Paul Lede has been available for long also as Paul Lede.
Reply #1 of 10 posted 3 OCT 16 by Patricia Routley
Interesting. It is fairly easy to prove that a rose is a climber. But a little harder to prove that the little squirt is the original bush for it could be the climber growing in unsuitable conditions. Perhaps comments from others -and the HMF photographers on the height of their bushes might help. I'll send the photographers a private message - there is only four.

To add a little weight to your theory, I note that the same photo has been used for both the climber and bush on the ARS MR site.
Reply #2 of 10 posted 3 OCT 16 by NikosR
Please check out this thread where Old Rosarian (Lynette) discusses her rose.
There's no bush form of Paul Lede under that name in commerce in Europe nor in Australia afaik and I don't believe there's in N. America either. Confusion might stem from this fact since nurseries do not find it necessary to differentiate.
Reply #3 of 10 posted 3 OCT 16 by NikosR
Also please check out this older thread where morrisnoor (Maurizio Usai), a world renown and respected landscape architect and rosarian from Sardinia, Italy mentions that he believes the bush form is extinct.
Reply #4 of 10 posted 3 OCT 16 by Patricia Routley
NikosR, I am sure you are right. I've been gleaning from the books and will add references.
Later edit. Because of your comments, NikosR; the square brackets in the 2001 reference; and the 1965 reference, I have marked this 1902 hybrid tea "believed extinct or lost". I have also moved all photos into the climber file. Anyone who disagrees is most welcome to move them back as that would signify this original bush form might not be extinct.
Reply #5 of 10 posted 7 OCT 16 by Hartwood
Paul Lede was definitely a climber in my garden. I got it from Roses Unlimited in 2007. After putting on size and having a few wonderful years of bloom, it was damaged by severe winter cold three years ago and it never recovered. RIP.
Reply #6 of 10 posted 7 OCT 16 by Patricia Routley
Thanks Hartwood. That justifies moving your photo out of the bush and into the climber.
Reply #7 of 10 posted 12 OCT 16 by Patricia Routley
I have received the following private message from member Alex.m in Austria:

Mine is the original bushform-the height is 70-90cm.
I got it from Eva Kotzmuth the former owner of Giovannis Garden and she maybe got it from Sangerhausen or Martin Weingart.
Giovannis Garden had a huge varitey of very rare roses ( I'm very happy to get many from them)- unfortunatly it dosent exist anymore.
......I know its the last :-( Eva Kotzmuth gave it to me because she know that I will take good care of it. Unfortunatly its a very delicate plant - it dosen´t bloom this year and is a very slow grower. I will talk to a friend of mine who is the owner of a rose nursery in the near (Baumschule Ecker) maybe he will propagate i
Reply #8 of 10 posted 13 OCT 16 by NikosR
That's very interesting! It would be good to know if Alex.m's delicate bush is budded or bare root. Maybe it would benefit from a climate milder than Austria's.
Reply #9 of 10 posted 18 NOV 16 by alex.m.
Usually even delicate chinas like the climate in my garden, but this fellow has special needs and is very easily offended ;-) .
Next season I will try to propagate it with cuttings.
Reply #10 of 10 posted 10 JUN by Thornbush
I have a found rose in California zone 9b that may be Paul Lédé, The undersides of the petals are pink. It opens with a cream top side, apricot at the base of the petals. The stamens are maroon. My rooted cutting makes almost continuous huge, and hugely scented blossoms with maroon stamens. Does this sound like Paul? Or climbing Paul?
most recent 26 JAN 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 11 JAN 18 by NikosR
Does anybody know if there is a structure beneath this rose or it is standalone?
Reply #1 of 14 posted 11 JAN 18 by Margaret Furness
There might have been a tree once, but if so, it has been swallowed.
Reply #2 of 14 posted 22 JAN 18 by NikosR
Thanks. Any idea how old this might be?
Reply #3 of 14 posted 22 JAN 18 by Patricia Routley
Or if this bush is 'La Mortola' or R. brunonii? We still have photos of this bush in both files.
Reply #4 of 14 posted 24 JAN 18 by billy teabag
It was labelled R. brunonii when I photographed it a few years ago and the blooms and foliage seemed of normal R. brunonii size. The 'La Mortola' I saw in Regents Park had significantly larger individual blooms and larger leaflets.
Reply #5 of 14 posted 24 JAN 18 by Andrew from Dolton
According to Grahame Stuart Thomas, Climbing Roses Old and New: ...large pure white flowers in good clusters, the petals having distinctly mucronate apieces;...
Reply #6 of 14 posted 24 JAN 18 by Patricia Routley
Thanks for that Andrew. You might have just nailed it.
The 1843 ref for R. brunonii says petals "rounded approaching obcordate" which I read as ...blunt heart-shaped.
Graham Stuart Thomas says of La Mortola "petals having distinctly mucronate apices" which I read as ...petals with tiny pointed tips.
Reply #7 of 14 posted 24 JAN 18 by Andrew from Dolton
From Stern's Botanical Latin.
Mucronatus (Mucronate): abruptly terminated by a hard short point.

You can clearly see this on one of the pictures from billy teabag.
Reply #8 of 14 posted 25 JAN 18 by Margaret Furness
Some of the petals on the close-up view of the Mt Lofty plant appear to have peaks, others not. I'll transfer both photos to R brunonii.
Reply #9 of 14 posted 25 JAN 18 by Andrew from Dolton
And some of the pictures posted as Brunonii have pointy petals too:
A lot of the pictures seem to have mixtures mucronate and obcordate petals often on the same flower. Perhaps both types are muddled or G. S. T. is mistaken.
Reply #10 of 14 posted 25 JAN 18 by Patricia Routley
I have added to, slightly, the 1969 reference for 'La Mortola'. Mr. Thomas (who was selling 'La Mortola' at Sunningdale Nurseries) said that R. brunonii "varies" and 'La Mortola' was "an ideal garden form". Not much to go on, but Billy has said (above) 'La Mortola' had "significantly larger individual blooms and larger leaflets". I am not sure if there are any public gardens growing both R. brunonii and 'La Mortola' within a reasonable distance, but photos showing an average leaf from both, and an average bloom from both would be interesting.
Reply #11 of 14 posted 25 JAN 18 by Andrew from Dolton
I was under the impression that 'La Mortola' was a more tender form of brunonii or as stated in the profile hybrid moschata. My only experience with brunonii is at an employer's garden in Devon where it grew tolerably well on a cold and damp north facing wall. 'La Mortola' would not grow here it would need warmer drier conditions, especially in the summer, like experienced at Villa Hanbury or as in billy tea bag's photographs, Regent's Park London. I don't believe it would grow well in my garden, the winters would be fine but the summer would not have sufficient warmth or dryness. Incidentally, it is slightly confusing that on the profile it says "Hybrid Moschata, Species / Wild" but further down, "Hybrid of r. brunonii"
Reply #12 of 14 posted 25 JAN 18 by Patricia Routley
I do not have the knowledge to do anything about that classification. Perhaps others can?
Reply #13 of 14 posted 26 JAN 18 by Ozoldroser
I grew my plant from Ron Duncan's plant that I was told was Himalayan Musk. 1999 I think from my cutting bed plans. I see I tried cuttings of Rosa brunonii from Hahndorf Cottage Garden when HRIA pruned his roses in 2000 ( run by Alan Campbell back then before he became the gardener at The Cedars) and from Ron Duncan again 1.8.01 of Himalayan Musk. It was when Phillip Robinson and Gregg Lowery visited that they said it was 'La Mortola'.
Reply #14 of 14 posted 26 JAN 18 by billy teabag
Pat - when you're next in London in summer, it would be good if you could check out what Regents Park has as 'La Mortola' as I think you would be the only one to judge whether your rose is the same.
All the nurseries over here offered R. brunonii as R. moschata or Himalayan Musk when I first started growing roses and those names persist in gardens from that time.
GST tried to correct the error when he realised it couldn't be R. moschata but by then it was in public and private gardens and nurseries all over the world under the other names.
Definitely one of the old chestnuts.
most recent 4 JAN 18 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 4 JAN 18 by NikosR
Nevada produces mostly smaller light pink blooms during the warmer months in my zone 9b Med climate while during the cooler months it produces its signature large white blooms.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 4 JAN 18 by Margaret Furness
Same as in my garden, similar climate.
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