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Jane Z
most recent 27 JUL SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 10 JUL 15 by scvirginia
I would like to see it grown side by side with 'Le Pactole' since there are some similarities.

The pink and yellow tones to the flowers and buds make me want to see it grown next to 'Devoniensis', one of the Teas that supposedly has a sweet fragrance...

I also wonder if it could be the same as the Bermuda Mystery Rose "Brightside Cream"? It would make sense if some/many/all of the Bermuda roses might have also made it to Oz and other parts of the British Empire with warmer climes.
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Reply #1 of 22 posted 11 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
From old private correspondence on "Yallum Park Cream", it would appear to be a much larger bush than 'Le Pactole'. I've put 'Le Pactole' in the rejections box, but added "Brightside Cream" and "San Felipe Noisette" to the possibles box. Hopefully people who have the Bermuda rose, or who have seen it, will contribute.

I know I saw a definite difference between "Yallum Park Cream" and 'Devoniensis' last season but probably did not have my little notebook with the pencil attached with string, in my pocket. This will have to wait until next spring for me to reply. Perhaps the people who found "Yallum Park Cream" might contribute more before then.
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Reply #2 of 22 posted 12 JUL 15 by Margaret Furness
My post from yesterday has fallen into the ether...
If Le Pactole is still in Australia, it has lost its name, and I'm not aware of "Yallum Park Cream" reaching Europe; so no chance at present of growing them together.
YPC has a Noisette or Tea-Noisette feel to it, with clusters of flowers and a sweet scent. The nearest, I think, is Lamarque. YPC is a much more vigorous plant than the bush form of Devoniensis.
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Reply #3 of 22 posted 12 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
After reading the references for 'Le Pactole', are you happy with putting 'Le Pactole' in the rejections box for "Yallum Park Cream" Margaret?
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Reply #4 of 22 posted 12 JUL 15 by scvirginia
Le Pactole is- from what I've read and from my own experience- a bit slow to get started, but there are a couple of photos at its HMF record in which it looks pretty large.

In a thread at the Antique Roses Forum, Jeri Jennings said that her 'Le Pactole' was about 5'tall and 6'wide (about 1.5m x 1.8m), but she had seen one at the Sacramento City Cemetery that was- and I quote- "BIGGER".
http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1583117/size-of-le-pactole-in-ca?n=7

To my inexperienced eyes, "Brightside Cream" looks like it's from the same club, and it has been called a Noisette.

I looked at some of the older references for 'Le Pactole' , and was intrigued to read Buist's speculation that 'LP' must be a child of 'Lamarque' and The Yellow Tea ('Smith's Yellow'?).

Virginia
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Reply #5 of 22 posted 12 JUL 15 by Margaret Furness
Le Pactole: "pale sulphur, approaching to a bright yellow in the centre of the flower". I don't think YPC is yellow enough for that, but most of the photos of Le Pactole on hmf aren't, either.
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Reply #6 of 22 posted 13 JUL 15 by scvirginia
No, bright yellow was either an exaggeration, or meant something less, well 'bright', than what we mean. But some of the photos of 'Le Pactole' suggest a luminosity that I thought I also saw in photos of "Yallum Park Cream". Now, I'm not sure that I did?

I asked about size of 'LP' on the Antique Roses Forum, and someone in Northern California wrote that her 'Le Pactole' is 7-8 years old, and is about 6.5' tall and 10' wide "and still growing". I suspect it would be pretty large in at least some Australian gardens also.

I did a brief online search about Yallum Park, and learned that the man who built the mansion there made his money selling food to gold prospectors. It would be a good fit if "Yallum Park Cream" turned out to be 'Le Pactole' since the name means 'gold mine'...

Virginia
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Reply #7 of 22 posted 13 JUL 15 by Margaret Furness
Some of the Tealadies (book authors) did some more study at Renmark recently, but feel that more work is needed before offering an ID for some of our foundlings.
As you say, the early references for Le Pactole may be misleading advertising; another possibility is that the rose in commerce under that name is incorrect. I could not call the "Yallum Park Cream" yellow.
Yallum Park is a wonderful 19th century mansion in decline, still in private ownership. It has 53 different William Morris wallpapers, said to be more than in any other house in the world. The Victorians were capable of living with eight or more different wallpapers in the same room...
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Reply #8 of 22 posted 13 JUL 15 by Ozoldroser
Doing a quick computer search of old Australian rose Catalogues in my documents La Pactole does not appear. I would agree (just from photos on HMF) that "Brightside Cream" is similar.
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Reply #9 of 22 posted 13 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
Yes it did get to Australia. F.C. Davis 1862 and Law Somner 1886 carried 'Le Pactole'. See references.
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Reply #11 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by Ozoldroser
thanks Patricia - I did say a quick search. I should have checked the catalogues themselves.
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Reply #12 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by Jane Z
A Mr Guilfoyle, nurseryman is recorded as having Le Pactole in his rose collection in 1854.
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Reply #13 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by Ozoldroser
Thanks Jane
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Reply #10 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by scvirginia
Some people report that 'Le Pactole' isn't usually yellow for them. Clearly, it's at least somewhat yellow for many people growing it, looking at the HMF photos. I suppose it is always possible that 'LP' in commerce here is not correct, though it does seem like a good match to early descriptions ("bright yellow" being a relative thing, perhaps).

I like the wallpaper in the photo very much, but eight or more patterns in a room might be a bit much... Thanks for the photos.
Virginia
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Reply #14 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by kai-eric
i will add some photos of 'le pactole' - it is mostly pale yellow as hillary pointed out.
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Reply #15 of 22 posted 23 JUL by Patricia Routley
Virginia, thank you so much for your interest in the Australian foundling “Yallum Park Cream”. I suspect that you could well be right and that this foundling could be ‘Le Pactole”.

The earlier references for ‘Le Pactole’ often called it a small tea, and this was off-putting. It is actually listed as a china /Bengal on the main page and I really haven’t done my homework on ‘Le Pactole’. If ‘Le Pactole’ is in fact a Noisette, then in my opinion, “Yallum Park Cream” could well be ‘Le Pactole’.

Looking at some history (see the “Yallum Park Cream” main page). An earlier owner laid out a garden in 1863. ‘Le Pactole’ was listed in 1862 by F. C. Davis who had a nursery at Reedbeds, near Renmark. I don’t know how far Yallum Park, Penola is from Reedbeds near Renmark, but it seems likely that the “Yallum Park Cream” may have been purchased from F. C. Davis.
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Reply #16 of 22 posted 23 JUL by Margaret Furness
Five hours' drive on modern roads in a modern car. Mine is growing as a free-standing bush (OK, on a fence, but it's taller than the fence). Will check the dimensions tomorrow, and ask Sue to post photos of hers, which is grown as a climber, I think. I would say it has more than "scattered later bloom" - mine is rarely without some flowers.
How does Le Pactole do for scent? "YPC" wafts a sweet scent as a cut flower.
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Reply #17 of 22 posted 23 JUL by scvirginia
I was not blessed with a reliable nose for rose scents, but have caught a delightful fragrance from my young 'Le Pactole' plants on occasion- not strong (at least to me), but sweet.

And, no- not "scattered later bloom"; my plants are immature, but they both bloom throughout the year. Jeri Jennings has a plant that's probably more than 15 years old, and she can probably give better info about bloom frequency, but my guess is "blooms in flushes" would be more accurate. She has also reported on Garden Web's Antique Roses Forum that blooms on her plant tend to be more lemony yellow in cooler weather, and whiter in warm weather.

My plants are immature, and have been slow to get started. 'Le Pactole' seems to grow slowly for others also, even when compared to other Teas. The flowers here are mostly buttery yellow with green canes and leaves, but I see photos of 'LP' in California with purplish canes and ivory flowers, sometimes tinged blush.

I seem to recall that 'Le Pactole' was often classed with the Noisettes when she was a youngster. The comment about it being classed as a China/Bengale seemed odd, so I looked through the references. One German reference about 'LP' being shown in the Bengal class; I'm guessing Tea-scented Chinas were included in that class... I think Tea-Noisette is what she is by ancestry, behavior and reputation. I don't think that one mention merits a China/Bengal classification, so I've changed it; if others disagree, it can be added back in.

Another possibility to check out for "YPC" might be a daughter of 'LP'... 'Mme Caroline Küster'. I see that she was recommended for Australian gardens in the 1890's. Unfortunately, there is only one photo at HMF, and not a very useful one for comparisons.

I wish I could tell you more, but my plants are still fairly small.

Virginia

PS I see that you have 'Louise Darzens' as a possibility, but I think the foliage is wrong- 'LD' having leaflets that are rounder and toothier.
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Reply #18 of 22 posted 23 JUL by Margaret Furness
My own-root plant of "Yallum Park Cream", about 10 years old, is 3.5m x 3.5 x 2.5 (8') high. It will scramble through other plants. At present (midwinter in zone 9b) it has a couple of flowers, and many hips. I can't say I've ever seen a yellow flower on it.
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Reply #19 of 22 posted 24 JUL by scvirginia
I'm not convinced that 'Le Pactole' always has yellow flowers, but the scrambling habit of "Yallum Park Cream" might be a better differential than color? My plants are fairly young, but seem inclined- like most Teas I've encountered- to grow out before growing up. Photos I've seen of mature plants look like tall, handsome Teas. I do remember reading somewhere that 'Le Pactole' can be encouraged to climb given some support, but I think that's true of many roses. Having 'Lamarque' as a parent might help with that...

I did think that the description of 'Le Pactole' as having a prolific spring flush followed by scattered bloom was not consistent with what I'm seeing, and I confirmed with someone on the Antique Roses Forum that her mature plant blooms in flushes that are almost continuous... i.e., the flushes have a bit of overlap. So I updated the bloom frequency info to 'blooms in flushes', given her confirmation of my (more limited) experience.

I hope this helps,
Virginia

PS Here's is a link to my Q&A about 'Le Pactole'. There are a few nice photos included of the whole plant.
http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4765935/le-pactole-bloom-frequency?n=1
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Reply #20 of 22 posted 25 JUL by Ozoldroser
Patricia the Reedbeds were situated in the suburbs just north of the Adelaide Airport - not at Renmark, but far from Penola. Roses would have come in via Adelaide I suspect. Port Adelaide is not that far north from the Reedbeds either and most sea coming cargo would have come into Port Adelaide.
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Reply #21 of 22 posted 25 JUL by Patricia Routley
Thanks Pat. I was mislead by an internet site somewhere.
The T. C. Davis 1862 catalogue also had an impressive listing of trees.
I'll add a few rose references from this catalogue.

'Narcisse' might be worthwhile looking at. I suspect F. C. Davis saw a similarity to 'Le Pactole' but wasn't quite sure in 1862, which rose his was.
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Reply #22 of 22 posted 27 JUL by scvirginia
'Narcisse' (but not 'Le Pactole') was listed in the catalogue of plants in the Adelaide Botanical Garden in 1878. Possibly, 'Narcisse' was a better plant there than 'Le Pactole', but your reference from TC Davis raises the question of whether the varieties were confused in commerce early on- at least in that particular part of the world...
Virginia
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most recent 8 JUN 16 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 2 MAY 15 by Give me caffeine
I've been swotting up on this one, and it seems that several people who grow it or are familiar with it think the scent is both stronger than the parent (SdlM), and better. They speculate that this is because scent is available from the stamens, due to the more open form (I don't know whether this is the case or not).

Some also claim this one is more vigorous than the parent in their locations.

See discussions on this link: http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1710667/please-tell-me-about-souvenir-de-st-anne

Also, since the parent is almost completely thornless I assume the sport shares this useful trait. Perhaps a note should be added to the description.
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Reply #1 of 5 posted 2 MAY 15 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Not thornless. Mildews. Badly.
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Reply #2 of 5 posted 3 MAY 15 by Give me caffeine
Ok. Mildew isn't an issue in my climate. As long as it's ok for black spot it should do well here.

Pity about it not being thornless, but that's roses.
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Reply #3 of 5 posted 3 MAY 15 by Jane Z
it's prickles aren't 'agressive' as some can be, I never found the rose to be a milge magnet - it is lovely ...
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Reply #4 of 5 posted 3 MAY 15 by Give me caffeine
Yes it is particularly gorgeous, and resistant to black spot, which is why it's on my short list. I think it even looks better than the parent, although this is obviously a matter of personal preference. The fact that SdSA won't ball in wet weather is certainly an advantage here.
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Reply #5 of 5 posted 8 JUN 16 by Give me caffeine
Have just received one in the post. I'd agree that the thorns don't look "aggressive". They're generally fairly small, straight or slightly hooked, and spaced far enough apart that you can easily find some smooth cane to hold with a few fingers. I'd call them sparse-ish.
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most recent 10 JAN 16 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 8 JAN 16 by Patricia Routley
For MelissaPej who asked in R. wichuraiana, who was the man....
My cursory search only turned up the 1894-1956 Edmond Proust and the rose 'Edmond Proust' was bred in 1901. Interesting.
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 9 JAN 16 by MelissaPej
That's what I found as well, and I doubt a rose was named after a small boy. I wondered if anybody had more information.
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Reply #2 of 3 posted 9 JAN 16 by Jane Z
in 2012 Lloyd Chapman said that the rose was named for Auguste Barbier's father in law ~ http://www.annchapman.net.nz/barbiers
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Reply #3 of 3 posted 10 JAN 16 by Patricia Routley
Thank you Jane. My regards,
Patricia
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most recent 3 JAN 16 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 29 JAN 15 by Give me caffeine
Mistydowns are stocking this one now

http://mistydowns.com.au/plant_display/display/2494-cammnethan-house-red-tea

Also, I'm no expert but the Tea rose book describes this one as tall and upright, which in their parlance means around 2 metres or so, while descriptions of 'Princesse de Sagan' say it is a small bush of up to 80 cm.
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Reply #1 of 9 posted 29 JAN 15 by Margaret Furness
David Elliott's photo of a bush labelled P de S at Lyon looks more like the 2m, but of course it may not be correctly identified.
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Reply #2 of 9 posted 29 JAN 15 by Jane Z
Height, width & depth of between 1.8-2m would be expected for "Camnethan Cherry Red" in most areas where Teas grow. For whatever reason, sizes given in some Australian catalogues do not reflect the growth that 'local' conditions will produce. Photo's taken July 2006 central west NSW Australia
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Reply #3 of 9 posted 29 JAN 15 by Give me caffeine
Yes I've noticed that about sizes in catalogues. Mistydowns often seems to give sizes that make sense for a youngish bush in a cooler climate, or for a heavily pruned bush, but when other sources are checked they'll often indicate rampant growth and up to twice the size, depending.

I have a suspicion that some nurseries rely mainly on customers who have suburban gardens, and don't want to scare off the punters, so give sizes that indicate what it can be kept to without killing it instead of sizes that the thing will naturally aim for if given half a chance.
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Reply #9 of 9 posted 3 JAN 16 by billy teabag
Worth a thousand words. Brilliant! Thanks Jane.
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Reply #4 of 9 posted 29 JAN 15 by Patricia Routley
Why are you connecting these two different roses?
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Reply #5 of 9 posted 29 JAN 15 by Margaret Furness
A rose identical with "Camnethan Cherry Red" was seen in the US (by one or more of the Tealadies, as far as I remember) labelled 'Princesse de Sagan'. I hope they will comment further.
As you know, the rose sold in Aus as P de S is incorrect. So photos of P de S from Australia should be disregarded, really.
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Reply #6 of 9 posted 29 JAN 15 by Give me caffeine
IanM's comment below, Discussion id : 57-888, mentions he thinks it is P de S. I saw his comment when posting mine.
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Reply #7 of 9 posted 30 JAN 15 by Patricia Routley
If you listen hard enough, I am sure you will find 365 different opinions from all over the world on a rose.
I try to form my own opinions and it seems to me that the 'Princesse de Sagan' references for 1887, 1898, 1906, 1907, 1916 and 1921 all point to this original rose being a small bush.

My 15-year old, unpruned "Camnethan Cherry Red" on its own roots is about 2 metres high.
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Reply #8 of 9 posted 30 JAN 15 by Margaret Furness
Jedmar's comment on his photos of Princesse de Sagan ex Loubert are of interest - maybe mislabelled, maybe Prof Ganiviat (which is what the Aus-sold rose is considered most likely to be). So I wonder if the tall rose labelled P de S, photographed by David Elliot at Lyon, was from the same source.
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