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Does anyone know if it suckers?
We are in Michigan, USA zone 5
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No time just now to go and check, but I am sure mine suckers a little. I have a note that a website said it will sucker if disturbed.
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#2 of 18 posted
4 MAR 16 by
Amateur
Thank you Patricia!
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I've seen it suckering a bit on a road verge. (It's a declared weed here, like R canina; they're mainly bird-spread.)
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#4 of 18 posted
4 MAR 16 by
Amateur
I am new to this site and it is amazing in the amount of information and photos available and moreover the (worldwide) members are so passionate and generous and it's been less than a week for my membership. I am beginning to understand a few reasons how a person could devote their life to working with roses.
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I know from direct observation, that this species is spread via the guts of herbivores here. The seedlings appear en masse in the cow dung pads. It also appears with horse faeces. My sheep love it and all the heavily grazed paddocks are rose free. On the contrary I haven't seen it along usual bird dropping sites, where other berries germinate like quite a few Cotoneaster species. Of course I couldn't argue against bird dispersion but here the main way seems to be large animals. It is VERY invasive here. I spent the first 4 years cleaning my farm of it, and suckers kept sprouting everywhere. Initially it was an inpenetrable bramble. Complete hillsides are covered with it in fairly sandy, sunny positions, also windswept . I was only able to reduce the existing population to something manageable only after about 15 years...It is said that it was brought initially by the first European settlers in the beginning of the 20 th century across from Chile as a way of creating barriers/hedges against cows wandering into cultivated areas. Nowadays there's an industry developed around the medicinal use of the hips, included medicinal oils.The hips are used to make a hip jelly and sold as tourist novelty. However as rose gardener I wonder if it can't be used as a rootstock, since its so well adapted here( or many other places as I read). I'm also interested around its disease resistance. I've not seen black spot on it. So clearly its a species that at least here has a lot to provide.
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My garden is very bad for back spot with even the native Rosa arvensis being very prone to it. But rubiginosa always grows very healthily.
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Thank you Andrew for your comment. It certainly has valuable attributes to be considered even if it were from (my) amateur breeding view. Arturo
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#8 of 18 posted
15 JUL 19 by
Plazbo
It's BS resistance can break down pretty quickly in breeding despite the canina meiosis (which makes it difficult to work with), eg Lady Penzance.
I do have feral OP year old seedlings that are somewhat healthier than Lord Penzance and Lady Penzance seedlings but they don't stand out as being massively different, maybe they'll change with age but probably not.
Given it's very wide native range, declared weed status in many parts of the world, it's clearly a survivor with wide adaptability but it also has a lot of faults that make it difficult to work with.
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Its invasiveness is foremost. It suckers freely. It is succeptible to mildew ( I've seen it in some years even with hips mildewed). It is very thorny that makes it difficult for rootstock purposes. Its so widespread here that I'm reluctant to add it to my plants grown HMF listing !. Any other fault to consider? TY Arturo
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#10 of 18 posted
15 JUL 19 by
Plazbo
From a breeding point it's canina type meiosis (only passes on 1 set of chromosomes via pollen, while seeds pass 4 sets), it can be broken with repeated outcrossings but at that point how much rubiginosa is left is going to vary greatly.
Some would also consider once blooming a fault....with the above meiosis regaining rebloom is potentially far more difficult.
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If I understand your point correctly, since its a pentaploid, to keep its virtues one ought to use it as a seed parent instead of pollen?. I just was reading about Flame Dance . It is an outcrossing with R.kordesii. ( no ploidy provided) With my very first aproximation, apart from the multiple trials done by Lord Penzance, the other breeder that has brought rubiginosa into further cultivation is W.Kordes II.
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In its native climate this is a great plant to grow.
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Here during late spring the apple scent is everywhere! its about trying out to "weed" out its negativve traits. Its so well adapted that common sense would indicate that its adaptability ought to be brought into the less vigorous species/cultivars. I'm thinking along the kordesii line or other rugosas that are black spot resistant. Would a BS resistant rootstock also reduce BS susceptibility to the grafted scion? In the fruit industry the rootstock is actually used to improve disease resistance. This is unclear to me however with Rosa hybrida. Developing much better rootstock beyond R.multiflora ( here) is one of my specific interests.
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#16 of 18 posted
15 JUL 19 by
Plazbo
I'm not sure Kordes worked with the species directly, without looking further in to it. I know they used the Magnifica hybrid but that hybrid appears to have broken down the canina meiosis to some extent. If you follow the lineage of Apple Jack and Gold Busch (which have some of the briar foliage fragrance and seem to be able to pass it on as pollen or seed some of the time) back their nearest rubiginosa ancestor is Magnifca used as pollen so atleast some of the time it seems its passing on genes the pure species only passes on maternally. If I had access to Magnifica I'd be throwing its pollen everywhere but its not in Australia.
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Is there any danger or risk if one were to get perhaps frozen pollen of Magnifica?
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'Lord Penzance' and 'Lady Penzance' also have Rosa foetida for blackspot too.
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#15 of 18 posted
15 JUL 19 by
Plazbo
Honestly I feel the foetida blame is exaggerated, it's not like the Bourbons, Portlands and Hybrid Perpetuals are amazingly healthy despite their complete lack of Foetida ancestry, some of them are outright gross getting near complete BS coverage. Its not a night and day difference between feral op seedlings and LP seedlings.
Foetida itself has been clean here, I allowed it to go dormant in summer when its growth slowed and started to drop leaves. Look at first and second gen hybrids like tip-top, hazeldean (and siblings), carefree copper which are healthy....odd for a species thats commonly blamed for introducing blackspot into the genome, maybe it was just bad selection, common use of spraying and the rush to introduce yellow roses early on that lead to poor speciemans going to market.
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I grow foetida 'Bicolor' and rubiginosa, they are both healthy here. 'Lady Portland' and 'Bourbon Queen get black spot very badly.
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Can someone advise if Tuscany Superb will keep clean healthy foliage? We are organic gardeners new to roses, and planning to water spray in the morning. I have found Paul Barden's site so beautiful and informative I appreciate his perspective though I have to keep it real as we are in Michigan a windy Zone 6. Any other suggestions for part shade roses with more than just pretty flowers? I love HelpMeFind! Best, Lynn
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It came into being long before black spot was even thought of. If you scroll through all the photos, you see immaculate foliage in every photo - bearing in mind most photos were taken in spring or early summer. It might look a bit tatty later in the year but because there are no flowers then, one doesn't notice the bush.
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#2 of 10 posted
29 SEP 16 by
Amateur
Thank you Patricia. I am on the right path, then. Happy planting
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I think you will find that Diplocarpon rosae came into being well before Tuscany Superb. ;)
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#4 of 10 posted
29 SEP 16 by
Amateur
there is no result from the search, "Diplocarpon rosae". Another clue, please.
I Googled it. it's the fungus. I admit I am unable to frame your response, though.
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Don't worry. I was just teasing Patricia.
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Grin. You are quite right Give me caffeine. It is wonderful how we live and learn. I had the idea that Black spot came with R. foetida Persiana and the pernetianas in the late 1800s. But Kenneth Horst Compendium of Rose Diseases p8. tells me the disease was first reported in Sweden in 1815 and in France, Belgium, Germany, England, and The Netherlands by 1844.
Thomas Rivers bred Tuscany Superb before 1837 so it might just..... have come along with no susceptibility to black spot in its make-up. (I get the idea I am talking through my hat here - so give me a cup of coffee and I'll shut up!)
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Given that it has a known host in at least one wild species (R. foetida) I suspect the fungus has been around for thousands of years, and that it just wasn't noticed in gardens before the 1800's. Presumably because the roses they were growing back then weren't hosts.
Are there any records of R. foetida before 1800? That would be the way to tell.
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#8 of 10 posted
1 MAY 17 by
Gdisaz10
In my garden this rose is susceptible to rust
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The original 'Tuscany' in my opinion is a better rose, but that gets blackspot too.
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I don't know what the disease is or if it is some physiological problem, but Tuscany Superb gets some of the most artfully awful foliage I've ever seen later in the summer here in northern Minnesota. I might be able to find a pic.
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Hi Moriah15,
I'd be happy too! Email me @ xxxxxxk@xxxxxx.com
Best, Liz
[HMF Ed - Please do not include your email address in your comments as it attracts email spammers to the website. Please use the private message facility to exchange personal contact information. Thank you.]
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Available from - Marissa www.greenmantlenursery.com
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