HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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We have had warm weather up into the eighties; the petals baked. It is in mostly sun. Does it need moire water? Less heat?
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Golden Celebration needs LOOSE & LOAMY & alkaline soil for FASTEST water-uptake. If you put a straw into clay, versus a straw into a glass of water with loose pebbles, it would be easier to draw up water from pebbles/water, than from dense clay.
There's a guy in San Francisco who proved that plants wilt easily in the heat with dense clay, but when he made his clay loamy by mixing in 50% wood-chips, they no longer wilt, despite full sun & hot temp.
My Golden Celebration was in full-sun, loamy & fluffy ALKALINE composted horse manure .. leaves never wilt. Then I moved it to heavy & dense clay, 4 hours morning sun only, tons of rain-water from the gutter .. and it wilted in the sun. Why? The clay is too dense, so water can't be drawn up. Plus I put too much gypsum which drove potassium down. Potassium is needed for retention of water & water-osmosis. The solution to Golden Celebration: make the soil loamy for best water-uptake & supply potassium.
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That's a great explanation, thanks Straw!
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Adding humus to heavy soils also opens them up and creates suitable conditions for the natural mycorrhizal fungi to flourish. Everyones a winner.
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Agree to that !! Horse manure is best when it's at least 2 year-old and become humus & dark brown and moist. But the best humus is from decayed leaves, very fluffy, much easier for roots to go through than aged horse manure. Leaves in my zone 5a take at least 2 years to decompose to neutral pH.
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Golden Celebration as own-root likes it alkaline & much more vigorous and healthy if the soil is moist & alkaline and loamy. Now is 92 F hot & dry, and blooms don't scorch in full-sun, since I watered with my pH 9 tap-water, and the blooms have a better scent than with acidic rain. Comte de Chambord next to it have crispy-fried blooms in the heat. Golden Cel's blooms did fry when it was 1st-year own root, but mine is 7th year own-root, so root is deep.
I give it high potassium & high phosphorus, NPK 8-20-40, plus gypsum in the planting hole for its zillion petals. Blooms smell like cup-cakes fresh from the oven (if pH is alkaline), but lesser-quality or gone with acidic rain water. I had seen pictures of Golden Celebration with tons of blooms in a pot, so this rose can bloom well with alkaline-tap-water. I like it so much, I wish I had bought more.
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Im looking to try a little cross breeding project does anyone here know weather or not this is fertile in pollen or makes hips? and if not which DA are not sterile
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'Golden Celebration' makes round green hips which are the size of small crab apples.
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Tropicana is still loaded in blooms after an extended period of 110 temperatures (not including the heat index). I don't know if it's the weather because she's new here, but she's been a lovely shade of peach, rather than the orange I see in so many pictures. Completely clean foliage and growing like a weed. Fragrant Cloud beside her does have a stronger fragrance and less fading, but a significantly smaller number of blooms.
Own-root, southern hot and humid Z8, full sun, daily overhead watering, sandy soil. So far, no sign of mildew!
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Yes. Colors get rather pale with high heat.
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I planted my new dawn in March 2016. It has grown like crazy! Last year in spring I got a full flush of blooms. This year I got a full flush blooms in spring. But it doesn’t seem to continue blooming. I am deadheading it, and doing so properly down to five leaves. I also have gotten a Normas amount of growth coming off of it, it’s extremely leggy. So the question I have is, is it too soon for me to expect to bloom all season long? It is extremely healthy and happy and green, almost no disease, just a little bit of mildew lately. I live in Northern California I am in 100% full sun, and I’ve been fertilizing every three weeks with Max sea 16 1616 Any thoughts?
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I have only been getting a big spring flush also! I've had several people tell me that they might have reverted back to Dr. W. Van Fleet. But I have a total of 16 from two vendors so that seems like a lot to all revert back. I'm very curious to see if this fall will have any blooms from the second vendor's, which are younger.
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There is usually a good spring flush here then another scat of flower from August into September. This year was unusually hot and dry and so far there have been no second flush although it has put on plenty of new growth. Maybe extra watering could be the answer.
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Tell me about it.... my history with this perplexing rose here in England goes back 20 years... I bought 2 in the 1990's, the first grew 20 foot with no rebloom... I then bought a 2nd rose during September one year, from a garden centre, where it was in bloom, so I knew I had the repeat type, but in the garden it once again grew 20 foot and didn't repeat... 10 years ago I bought yet another for my current garden, from Peter Beales… no rebloom... I met the late Mr Beales a year or so before he died and told him about it, that all these ND's seem to revert to Dr Van Fleet when you plant them... he couldn't understand it and offered to replace my rose, but I gave up by then, and I'm now finished with New Dawn...
I can only hope you get some rebloom at some point.. I found it too frustrating...
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Isn't 'Dr. W. Van Fleet' larger flowering than 'New Dawn'? My plant is only 5 years old growing 4M up into a cut leaved elder tree. If they revert surely that would happen gradually, not the whole plant change at once?
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I wouldn't know about that Andrew, as far as I know, if it's a once bloomer it's Van Fleet but if it repeats it's New Dawn... If one buys it as New Dawn, and if it's to do with time or watering, then how many years do you have to wait before it gets into a rebloom cycle? that's what I would like to know... to be honest, I probably didn't go beyond 3 seasons with any of mine... I felt that was long enough, and I only deadheaded... let's see if Lavender Lace's roses rebloom this year...
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Everything rebloomed immediately after all the rain a month ago but not a single bud on the New Dawns. We can have blooms to early December though so will report back if anything changes.
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#10 of 25 posted
12 SEP 18 by
Marlorena
Thanks for keeping in touch about this.... I feel I'm shouting through a loud hailer, but if there's anyone in the world out there, who has a New Dawn that repeats... please sign in and tell us about it, because I'm dying to know ….
I'm going to check out a couple I know of in my local area, and see what they're doing...
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There are photos on the hmf file taken in September, October, November in the northern hemisphere; so their plants re-bloom. I donated mine elsewhere because it was so prickly, and I can't recall what it did. It's a survivor rose in our Mediterranean climate.
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Yes Margaret it's certainly tough, I moved a fair sized plant a few years ago and never cut it back at all, planted it to grow in an elder tree, it didn't turn a hair just kept on growing. I used to get flowers in September but haven't for the last few years. Some of the northern hemisphere pictures have been posted in the winter months, some members might not have posted them at the actual time of flowering.
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#13 of 25 posted
26 JAN 20 by
Hamanasu
Hi Marlorena, assuming this is still of interest to you, I got a top-grafted weeping standard plant of New Dawn from Beales in 2014. I garden in containers on a patio and quickly realised it was not suitable (in fact, it was a hazard!) in that space. So after it bloomed I planted it in the ground, on an island that belongs to the river-side building where I live. The soil is poor, hard and gravelly; I never fed it and it was really planted too close to an ash tree. The stake also did not hold, so it spent much of its life on the island leaning on one side. I hardly ever watered it, pruned it, or dead-headed it. Mostly I forgot about it, being half hidden by the ash. In those conditions it never has spectacular blooming in spring/early summer, but it's always had some flowers in the autumn. Nothing to write home about, but still. My conclusion is either that top grafted specimens of New Dawn rebloom more readily, or that poor soil restrains green, vigorous growth, and encourages rebloom. I have just potted this up again and am training it over the arbour of a bench, as the flooding this winter washed the soil away and left it with almost entirely exposed roots and lying completely flat. We'll see what rebloom I'll get in the conditions (being positioned close to a north-facing wall, probably not much). PS: I have just checked some past HMF comments on this rose and I gather that not deadheading might have helped with the second flush; this is because in wichurana roses 'new buds grow very closely behind the spent flowers', so one should be 'Careful not to prune off the not yet fully developed buds immediately behind the just bloomed flowers' when deadheading. This was advice from the now passed away owner of Azalea House Flowering Shrub Farm (NY).
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#14 of 25 posted
26 JAN 20 by
Marlorena
Hamanasu…. thanks for getting back about this.. always interesting to me... at least you know your rose reblooms somewhat.. and you've confirmed something to me that I noticed in 'Alexandre Girault'... I found that when I deadheaded it immediately after flowering and pruned it back, ready for next season, I did not get any rebloom whatsoever... one year I decided not to touch it after flowering, and it continued reblooming into autumn... not huge amounts but more than just sporadic.. the downside is that the plant looks a huge untidy mess... So it seems you have confirmed, via the late owner of Azalea House, that it's best not to prune back the laterals too hard at midsummer... something that I was all too inclined to do...
This is good to know... thanks again Hamanasu… let us hope we have a good year for our roses... whatever happened to winter?...
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#15 of 25 posted
26 JAN 20 by
Hamanasu
To keep the plant in check and reduce the tangle (given that trimming off the laterals is not a good idea, as it prevents rebloom), the suggestion was to remove in the winter one or some of the older canes, close to the crown of the plant. I guess correct pruning can make a huge difference to rebloom in some varieties. I noticed that when I got a rebloom on Quatre Saisons, it's because I had pruned it back quite hard after flowering, so that I forced the buds that did not break in the spring (behind the ones that did break, further down the cane) to create new, blooming laterals. The problem is that if I subjected the plant to that treatment every year, eventually there'd be no plant left (as I don't get new strong basal canes every year); so I only do it intermittently, and must resign myself to missing the rebloom at least every other year.
The winter was such a wash-out here (Berkshire), and I can count on one hand the nights when it went below 0!
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I gave up and shovel pruned it
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#18 of 25 posted
26 JAN 20 by
Hamanasu
Fair enough! I'm quite merciless with varieties that don't work for me (life is too short). :)
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I don't prune my 'New Dawn' at all and just let it climb through a cut leaved elder tree and it has never re-flowered. A bush in my neighbours garden gets a rough haircut when I prune a 'Veilchenblau' for them in July and it always has flowers in September.
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#19 of 25 posted
26 JAN 20 by
Hamanasu
Ha! Then I give up!
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#20 of 25 posted
26 JAN 20 by
Marlorena
...from Andrew's experience, it sounds like it needs deadheading but without cutting too much off... this rose has vexed me too long, perhaps it's one of those that has had its day in the sun... I prefer Ghislaine de Feligonde now because I can do whatever I like with it and it still reblooms..
..interesting about Quatre Saisons… they need getting to know don't they?... I wish I could give up... it would save me a fortune...
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It is interesting what Hamanasu is saying because I think a lot of so called "'New Dawn'" it is really 'Dr W. Van Fleet'.
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#23 of 25 posted
26 JAN 20 by
Hamanasu
Marlorena, I sympathise about being unable to give up (in fact, only yesterday I ordered Blossomtime, one of New Dawn's children, except, to me, more beautiful)! All I'm giving up on is try to understand ND's reblooming habits, or lack thereof. Andrew, I'm sure you're right about Dr Van Fleet getting mixed up with New Dawn in nurseries.
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#24 of 25 posted
26 JAN 20 by
Marlorena
..best of luck with Blossomtime... I don't know that one, but Awakening always looks nice in photos..
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You get flushes of blooms from 'Ghislaine de Feligonde' right until you get a decent frost in cool wet conditions it does very well.
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#25 of 25 posted
11 DEC 22 by
jac123
I don't think that if you had waited longer something would have changed. My new dawn rebloomed the first year as an own root plant and still does now (third year in the grownd). I do not deadhead it; it doesn't get water if it doesn't rain, i don't fertilize it and it grows in partial shade. I don't get a full fall flush, rather scattered blooms here and there, but it's still something. Right now, with night temperatures below 0°C, it still has some buds on (definitely not a show, just its way to say "Hey, I can rebloom if I want!")
Overall, though, I believe that even though New Dawn does have the ability to perform where many other varieties would not even survive, and it should be treasured for these conditions, it fails to perform up to modern standards when it gets all the best conditions. It performs basically the same way in the best soil and with the best care or in total neglect. If, as I suspect, your plants receive good care and your conditions are not extremely tough, I don't see why you should try again with it
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My first ten grew to twenty feet extremely fast too, but has since slowed down. Andrew might have a good point about the extra watering as we are usually hot, humid, but quite dry. However, we just received seven inches of rain after our usual drought conditions. So hopefully that will be the push that it needs for a fall bloom!
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A plant growing in the village in a very dry position has put on hardly any growth and isn't re-flowering. My own 'New Dawn' put on a lot of new growth thanks to some irrigation during the hot dry summer, it shows no sign of re-flowering either. Others have had a good second flush, 'Rose de Rescht', 'Agnes', 'Jacques Cartier' and 'Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseux' have all done well although 'Duchess of Portland' hasn't even tried. Others, Rosa cinnamomea Plena and the Dunwich Rosa are unexpectedly having another go.
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Sounds like you have lots of blooms today also Andrew! I should have mentioned that I do irrigate, so it wasn't like mine were totally neglected to begin with. Though I do think that New Dawn can certainly tolerate neglect! Blooming seems to be another matter.
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Bought this as gallon-sized own-root: The foliage is medium-green and glossy, this rose needs space, it throws out far-reaching laterals, much wider than stated in HMF. The scent started out clove, and end with "floral grassy", very pleasant. This rose does best in morning sun, and blooms fried n hot full-sun above 90 F. It's low-thorn & pretty foliage.
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Straw, how is this one working out for you? Do you still like the scent?
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The blooms actually look pretty good in today's heat of 92 F, compared to Blue Girl. The scent is grassy-clove, I would rate it 6 out of 10. It's NOT meant to stick one's nose close-up, but in a vase it gives off a pleasant wafting scent. Yes, I recommend it for hot & dry climate .. it actually look better in dry heat, than after heavy rain .. blooms turned ugly-brown with rain. It's very beautiful as a landscape bush, very glossy & pretty foliage. As a 2nd year own-root, the root is deep enough for once-a-week watering in full-sun & above 90 F. I put 2 bags of sand for that spot, since it's right below the rain-spout.
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Thank you, it's certainly beautiful enough!
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Forget to inform you that Poseidon fried at above 90 F, full-sun into crispy-blue at end of day, still look good !! I suspect the blue roses don't like hot full sun.
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Thanks for the extra info! My Neptunes have afternoon shade in the pots and it sounds like I need to plant them that way also. I am frying about a half dozen Angel Face though, so far, so good!
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Dee-lish doesn't fry whatsoever as own-root. It's in full sun. Yesterday was 92 F, with strong wind that made Madame I. Periere's blooms shatter immediately. But Dee-lish didn't shatter with strong wind. It's the most enjoyable cut-blooms to sniff (yummy fruit in alkaline clay, but perfume in potting soil). The blooms have gorgeous swirls, I wish Dee-lish would come in blue, purple, and orange !! There's Soleil d' Or, which is a Foetida/Pernetiana with orange swirls, and thrive in hot & dry & alkaline .. that's hardy in zone 5, but I have a hunch that Soleil d'Or prefers loamy/sandy soil.
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I had Dee-Lish on my list but was worried that she would prefer clay?
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Both Poseidon and Dee-lish were super-vigorous in MG-moisture control potting soil (but I punched a dozen holes in the pot so it was very fast-draining). Since Dee-lish has many thick-petals, I would put as much potting soil as possible for a dry/hot climate. Some roses are worth the entire bag of potting soil, just to keep them moist.
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Poseidon is a gem as 2nd-year-own root, it far-surpasses Lagerfeld in all aspects. Cannot find any blackspot on Poseidon regardless of weather, be it 3 weeks of hot & dry & no rain, or tons of acidic rain. It's the best-looking bush & continuous bloomer in my garden, and blooms can take full-sun better than Blue girl. The best aspect of Poseidon is when it's over 90 F, blooms turn darker-blue rather than faded. I'm moving Lagerfeld OUT-OF-SIGHT, since it's so floppy & faded, but Poseidon deserves the ideal spot for admiration of its bush-beauty. Poseidon is almost thornless and never poke me like Nahema.
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How is the fragrance?
I'm afraid that I've been disappointed with Lagerfeld also this summer. The beautiful blooms of spring have turned into floppy dirty white with not much fragrance. He's blooming in the heat but they are ugly and small now. Those in the ground and in pots all have afternoon shade but it's not enough.
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The scent of Poseidon is strong clove with rain water, but turns floral/grassy in the vase with my alkaline tap water. I like the scent in the vase better than in the ground. My Poseidon is still in full-sun, above 90 F turn blooms into darker blue. Lasts at least 4 days in the vase if cut in buds.
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Thanks! I might try even more shade on the pots to see if it helps. On Poseidon, the HMF description says that it doesn't like warmer climates so that's why I've been afraid to try them.
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Lagerfeld is the one that doesn't like it hot & dry. The minute we don't have rain, and watered with alkaline-tap at pH 9, Lagerfeld broke out in blackspots & yellow leaves, while Poseidon is 100% healthy. As own-root Poseidon has HUGE & DEEP root and is drought-tolerant. It's healthy in MG-potting soil as well as my rock-hard-clay.
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That's interesting to compare, thanks! I haven't seen a hint of blackspot in sandy soil but I do water a lot with well water at pH 7.
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Excellent info, !! My high-pH tap-water hardens the soil, so water can't move upward in hot & dry weather .. so roses break out in blackspot. In contrast, acidic rain water softens and loosens my clay, so water can be transported upward.
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Thanks for the info and the great report on Poseidon!
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After tons of rain, picked 3 blue-blooms for the vase today: Poseidon, Bluegirl, and Lagerfeld. Poseidon is the prettiest: deepest blue color & many petals & last up to a week (if picked in bud), and the scent becomes stronger in the vase. Its scent ranges from clove (if watered with my pH 9 tap-water), to aromatic grassy floral (in the vase), to floral & Old-rose (with acidic rain water at pH 4.5). Bluegirl loses its scent in the vase, and Lagerfeld scent lessens, versus Poseidon's scent becomes stronger & wafting in the vase.
Poseidon is the best blue-flower for the vase. It's a continuous bloomer, very short pause in between.
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Thanks for the excellent review!
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What size is this bush now and how many years have you had it planted please? Is there any updates?
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My Poseidon is an 8th-year own root, always green to the tip through my zone 5a winter, except for this winter (1/2 canes are green to 3 feet, the other 1/2 cane are down to 1 foot). It's a continuous bloomer since there are at least 40+ blooms that open gradually, rather than all at once. Will post pics. of recent years in the photo section. Bush is 4' x 2.5', it gets wider as it matures.
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Thanks Straw! That's actually a great size for where I have it.
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