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most recent 6 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 14 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
It is feasible that Nancy Lindsay brought back this rose from Persia between 1935-1939. Was she the person who named it 'Pompon des Princes' and did Graham Stuart Thomas rename it 'Ispahan'?
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Reply #1 of 6 posted 23 JUL 16 by Hardy
I've read that the book, 'Rosen - die große Enzyklopädie,' states that it was brought to England by Norah Lindsay, but don't have that book, can't vouch for its alleged contents, and wonder about it giving credit to the wrong Lindsay. Google Books informs me that GST mentions it as Ispahan, Rose d'Isfahan, and Pompon des Princes on p. 157 of 'The Old Shrub Roses' (1955), but I gather that no origin is specified there. Since he credits Nancy Lindsay when mentioning Rose de Rescht, Gloire de Guilan, etc., I'd wonder at his not mentioning her in relation to Ispahan.
<edited to update>
Pages 143-8 of GST's 'Cuttings from My Garden Notebook' have much to say about Nancy Lindsay and her roses, and the relevant points I noticed were:
She felt at perfect liberty to name found roses which she could not identify, though all but a few were later identified by others as already known and named cultivars. (I just added a comment at 'Empress Josephine' giving GST's main quote on the subject.)

She was very jealous and protective of her roses, and flew into a rage when she discovered that GST had obtained budwood of them from Kew, as she had let Kew have them only because she had been unable to care for them for a while, and believed she had an agreement that Kew would not share them with anyone. While she didn't feel too strongly about garden cultivars she found in cities, like Rose de Rescht and Gloire de Guilan, she was livid that Rose d'Hivers had been shared. She said that she'd risked her life in the wilds of Persia to get it, and considered it her very personal baby. She also did not consider its name to be final; she said that before Kew shared it, "I ought to have had stock of it first, and had it named and shown it myself... I'd always hoped that my rose would be named after me..." In her rant against Kew, she says she'd agreed "that none would be passed on until they had been named, shown and recorded and I'd given my permission." (GST consequently removed Rose d'Hivers from commerce, and unless Kew still has Sharastanek, her jealous guarding of her roses may have resulted in its extinction.)

All this leads me to believe that the names attached to NL 292 'Ispahan,' NL 465 'Sharastanek,' NL 849 'Rose de Rescht,' NL 1001 'Gloire de Guilan,' and NL 1409 'Rose d'Hivers' were tentative working names. Apparently Rose d'Hivers was supposed to be named 'Nancy Lindsay,' so 'Pompon des Princes' may have been what she finally chose for NL 292. Other than 'Sharastanek,' whose etymology escapes me, all of the names first used are descriptive, i.e., named after the city or province where they were found, or from the fact that Rose d'Hivers was dried for use in winter. I suspect that what we now know as Ispahan may not have had that name (or Pompon des Princes) before the 1940s, and while 'Mogul Temple Rose of Persia' points to the country of origin, I'm left wondering what it was called in Farsi or Arabic before Lindsay collected it and stuck her tag on it. Alas that we seem to have no Iranian rosarians here.
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Reply #2 of 6 posted 24 JUL 16 by Patricia Routley
Thank you so much Hardy.
It was Nancy, and not her mother, Norah, who bought back the roses.
We actually have that reference under 'Ispahan' centifolia. As the Ispahan' damask also has references to centifolia, I feel that perhaps these two files should be merged. But I would need to do more homework on this and take any advice.....
I actually found the 1967 and 1974 references (in the damask file) of interest. ....and the 1829 one as well.
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Reply #3 of 6 posted 25 JUL 16 by Patricia Routley
No advice forthcoming from anyone, so despite the differences of class in the two files, I have moved any reference of a double rose to the damask 'Ispahan' file, leaving references to a single rose in the centifolia 'Ispahan' file. They are probably the same rose, but I am a little cautious.

Probably the reason that Mr. Thomas did not mention Nancy in relation to 'Ispahan', was that for once, she gave it a responsible name and one that it had been known by beforehand (as well as adding her study number N.L. 292).

Taking a shortcut here - Virginia, does the 1877 p84 reference belong in the single 'Ispahan' centifolia file?
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Reply #4 of 6 posted 15 JUN by Hamanasu
Hello, Norah Lindsay wrote of the moss rose of Ispahan as early as 1929. In her article ‘Roses of Long Ago’ she describes it very definitely as being mossed (3 times in a single line): ‘... the moss rose, ‘les roses d’Ispahan dans leurs gaines de mousse’. Those furry buds...’
Also, her daughter Nancy appears to have gone to Persia and brought back roses from there between 1935 and 1939. (This is all based on this source: https://archive.org/stream/TheRosesOfNorahNancyLindsayAllysonHaywardRosaMundiVol.23No.220092010/The%20Roses%20of%20Norah%20&%20Nancy%20Lindsay,%20Allyson%20Hayward,%20Rosa%20Mundi,%20Vol.%2023,%20No.%202,%202009%20-%202010_djvu.txt)
Is it not possible, then, that the centifolia Ispahan was an old moss rose known in France (and to Norah), and different from the the damascena Ispahan known to us, which shows no mossing? And assuming Nancy introduced the damascena Ispahan from Persia, it seems unlikely it was she who named it Ispahan, knowing (as she must have done) that her mother’s favourite rose was a muscosa by the name of Ispahan (Norah described it as ‘the most lovable of all roses’).
As to Sharastanek, could this be Quatre Saisons (or Trigintipetala)? The source mentioned above quotes two descriptions by Nancy, one frome her own catalogue and one from a letter she wrote to Vita Sackville-West. The descriptions diverge in the flower colour they give, but the inconsistency disappears if the catalogue refers to the bud (which can approximate red in quatre saisons) and the letter to the fully open flower (which can fade to pale pink). Otherwise the descriptions seem consistent with Quatre Saisons (grey-green leaves, small clusters of double flowers, delicious and intoxicating scent, etc). The main feature that may give Sharastanek away as Quatre Saisons, though, is the description, in the letter to Vita, of the “lovely pointed buds with long ferny sepals”. (Intriguingly, Nancy also reported to Vita that she found the rose in an area now completely deserted, famed to have once been the place where one of Alexander the Great’s generals settled and built his residence, so that the rose might have been introduced by him; which tallies with the idea that Quatre Saisons has been known since Graeco-Roman times). Also, if Sharastanek is Quatre Saisons, it would explain why Sharastanek has, unlike Lindsay’s other introductions, disappeared from commerce as a distinct variety in its own right. Yes, a lot of speculation, but...
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Reply #5 of 6 posted 15 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
Whatever Ms (Nancy) Lindsay says should be taken with a pinch of salt.
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Reply #6 of 6 posted 6 days ago by true-blue
Hardy,

According to reference page, it's a name of a valley in Guilan province...


“Another rare and distinct rose is the Persian I found at over 9,000 feet in the boulder-strewn wastes of the Elburz beyond the Sharastanek Valley towards Quilan."

https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.65229&tab=7
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most recent 6 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 2 DEC 15 by Inde
Is anyone growing this rose in warm climates? I wish to grow it in Delhi( India). Our climate would be similar to zone 10 b of the US. The winter low is 2°C.
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Reply #1 of 9 posted 14 JAN 16 by drcy1111
I have Rose De Rescht in my garden in Arizona. Our summers reach 113 deg. fahrenheit and our winters can fall below 32 deg. farhrenheit. It does very well. Its a small rounded bush with small flowers that seem to bloom in waves. I have not had problems with any diseases.
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Reply #2 of 9 posted 14 JAN 16 by Nastarana
I had what I believe was 'Rose de Rescht' in the CA Central Valley, zone 9 hot and dry. It was sold as 'Ville de Bruxelles', which it clearly was not. What I had was very like what is described above for Arizona, a compact, rounded bush which bloomed in waves all summer. It did need some irrigation during the dry months of July and August, but so do most HTs.
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Reply #3 of 9 posted 9 JAN 17 by Inde
Thank you for beep lying Nastrana. It flowers for me throughout the mild months. It isn't a nervous bloomer. But I Thu no it needs tine to settle.
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Reply #4 of 9 posted 10 JAN 17 by Margaret Furness
I think your computer has been filling in what it thought you wanted to write, and that what you meant was "replying".
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Reply #5 of 9 posted 1 MAY 17 by Gdisaz10
My climate is really hot damp and it is sometimes subject to rust and blackspot
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Reply #6 of 9 posted 1 MAY 17 by Andrew from Dolton
It grows very well on acid loam flowering well in early summer then a few later on in September. In my damp cool climate it is healthy with only a smattering of blackspot.
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Reply #7 of 9 posted 1 MAY 17 by Jay-Jay
It grows well on alkaline loam too and repeats several times. But my climate isn't hot.
It seems to grow well/flourish in Turkey.
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Reply #8 of 9 posted 1 MAY 17 by Andrew from Dolton
Well if it actually did come from Iran as Ms Lindsay claimed then it must love hot and dry.
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Reply #9 of 9 posted 6 days ago by true-blue
Resht, or Rasht is actually not hot and dry but hot and humid :-)
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most recent 5 OCT SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 10 MAY 18 by HubertG
From the 'Rosen-Zeitung' 1895, page 73:

"Neuste Rosen für 1894/95

(Beschreibungen der Züchter)

Strauch wüchsig und sehr remontierend; Blume sehr gefüllt, wundervoll geformt, auf geraden Stielen; Blumenblätter dick, sehr regelmässig rund, leicht aufblühend; Farbe neu in dieser Klasse, carmoisinrot samtig purpur mit lebhaft kirsch- und feuerrotem Widerschein."

My translation:

Newest Roses for 1894/95

(Descriptions of the breeders)

Bush vigorous and very remontant; flower very double, wonderfully shaped, on straight stems; petals thick, very regularly round, opening easily; colour new in this class, crimson-red velvety purple with lively cherry-red and flame-red reflexes.
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Reply #1 of 42 posted 10 MAY 18 by Patricia Routley
That's interesting: "petals thick, very regularly round". Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
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Reply #2 of 42 posted 14 MAY 18 by HubertG
This is the text accompanying the colour illustration of 'Francis Dubreuil' in the 1896 Rosen-Zeitung, page 41

"1. Francis Dubreuil. (Thee). Dubreuil 1894.
Reichblütigkeit, kräftiger Wuchs, gute Füllung, aufrechte Haltung, elegante Form und eine dunkelblutrote Färbung hatte man bisher noch nicht unter den Theerosen in einer Sorte vereinigt gefunden. In der Dubreuil'schen Züchtung haben wir etwas Hervorragendes dieser Art erhalten, so dass der Züchter mit recht sagen konnte: Die schönste, bekannte "rote Thee". Der Strauch ist wüchsig, sehr verzweigt, dunkelbläulichgrün belaubt und sehr remontierend. Die wundervoll schön geformte mittelgrosse Blume ist sehr gefüllt, wird von geraden, festen Stielen aufrecht getragen, öffnet sich bei jeder Witterung. Die samtig carmoisin purpurrote Farbe wird durch eine feuerroten Widerschein erhellt und leidet weder durch Hitze noch durch Regen leicht. Eine als Knospe geschnittene Blume dauert im Glase Wasser wohl 8 Tage lang. Für Blumenbinderei-Geschäfte wird sie ohne Fehl eine viel begehrte und gesuchte Schnittrose sein. Ihre Massenanpflanzung kann daher nur dringend empfohlen werden. Dass sie auch wegen ihrer seltenen Vorzüge schnell erkannt wurde, beweisst eine überaus starke Nachfrage in Pflanzen, sodass dieses Frühjahr wohl in keinem Geschäfte eine kräftige Pflanz unverkauft blieb. Auch dürfte sie zu Gruppenpflanzungen Verwendung finden und grosse Wirkung erzielen, doch besorge man ihr kräftige, humusreiche, lehmige Erde. Die in den letzten Jahren in den Handel gebrachten dunkelroten Thee sind von "Francis Dubreuil" alle in den Schatten gestellt. Ob sie eine Treibrose sein wird, können wir bis jetzt noch nicht sagen.
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Reply #3 of 42 posted 15 MAY 18 by Patricia Routley
Thank you HubertG. Reference added.
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Reply #4 of 42 posted 15 MAY 18 by HubertG
I should have time to do the translation tonight, Patricia.
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Reply #5 of 42 posted 15 MAY 18 by HubertG
My translation:

1. Francis Dubreuil. (Tea). Dubreuil 1894. Amongst the Tea Roses, one had not found freedom of flowering, strong growth, good petalage, upright held flowers, elegant shape and a dark blood-red colouring combined in the one variety until now. In this Dubreuil creation we have obtained something outstanding of this kind, so that the breeder can rightly say: the most beautiful known "red Tea". The bush is vigorous, very branched, foliaged dark bluish-green and very remontant. The wonderful beautifully shaped medium-sized flower is very double, borne upright on straight firm stems, opening in any weather. The velvety crimson purple-red colour is lit with a fire-red reflection and neither through heat nor through rain does it suffer easily. A flower cut as a bud lasts well for 8 days in a glass of water. For florist businesses it will become a very coveted and sought after cut rose without fail. Therefore their mass planting can only be highly recommended. The fact that it was also quickly recognised because of its rare merits, established an exceedingly strong demand for plants, so that this spring hardly any vigorous plant remained unsold in the stores. It should also find use for group plantings and achieve great effect, but still, one should give it strong humus-rich, loamy soil. 'Francis Dubreuil' eclipses all dark red Teas introduced into commerce in recent years. Whether it will become forcing rose, we cannot yet say.

I hope it's still English. I've tried to translate it as literally as possible without it sounding too Germanic.
It would be interesting for someone who grows this rose to do the 8 day vase-life test.
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Reply #6 of 42 posted 15 MAY 18 by Patricia Routley
The translation added. Thanks HubertG. The 8-day test in different seasons. I have found that the well-watered autumn roses last longer.
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Reply #7 of 42 posted 15 MAY 18 by Margaret Furness
A better test of a true Francis Dubreuil would be the scent; if it has any, it should be Tea-scented. See old references.
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Reply #8 of 42 posted 16 MAY 18 by HubertG
There is that reference that says it has a distinct apple scent.

Patricia, I left out an 'a' in the last sentence of that translation - it should be " become a forcing rose".

If the rose grown as 'Francis Dubreuil' lasts only a few days in water then that might be an argument that it isn't the original rose.
Although I haven't grown FD (and the main reason was really that it was not meant to be the correct variety), but I have to ask, since it isn't 'Barcelona' after all, what tea is it? I have to admit that it does rather match the German descriptions - regular rounded petals, dark blue-green foliage, colour description etc.
I think it might need to be reappraised as possibly the correct variety.
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Reply #9 of 42 posted 16 MAY 18 by Margaret Furness
No, I can't buy anyone describing the rose currently-sold-as FD, as scentless. When the designated scent-testers for the Rose Trial grounds in Adelaide Botanic Gardens are assessing new varieties, and find they need to re-set 10 (like setting white balance!), they go and stick their noses in "Not Francis Dubreuil".
The Tea book includes an illustration of FD from Rosen-Zeitung 1896, showing long pointed leaves. The authors conclude their discussion of Not FD by saying "...we just wish that we could call it a Tea!".
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Reply #10 of 42 posted 16 MAY 18 by HubertG
Yet the illustration from Betten's Die Rose 1903 doesn't show a long bud or leaves. Which one is correct? The Betten illustration looks more realistically drawn than the Rosen-Zeitung illustration.

I'm only going by the photos I've seen, but if this was the FD introduced in the 1890's, from its habit and freedom of flowering it wouldn't have been classed as a Hybrid Perpetual, a Bourbon or any other rose class at the time. No doubt a red tea would have had a little bit of 'something else' in its breeding to give it its colour and that perhaps makes it less typical of the appearance of the 'purer' teas, but like I say, how would this particular rose be classed back then?

I've only seen it a few times in person at visits to Parramatta Park in Sydney years ago. It certainly did have a good fragrance but I couldn't describe its scent after all this time.

At least we know it came from Sangerhausen. There can't be too many candidates in the early lists that match it.
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Reply #11 of 42 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
Here's an early American reference describing FD as "very fragrant":
From G. R. Gause's 1905 Catalogue of Roses (on the inside front cover)

"RED ROSE - FRANCOIS DUBREUIL.
A new red Tea Rose of unusual merit, with fine, large, double flowers, which, in color, are equal to the best of our deep-colored Hybrid Perpetuals. The flowers are large, very full and double, with thick, regularly arranged petals. Color is red, with velvety shadings; rich and very fragrant."
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Reply #12 of 42 posted 28 MAY by Margaret Furness
Interesting.
The rose photographed in 1906 isn't what is grown as FD now.
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Reply #13 of 42 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
I just uploaded the illustration of Francis Dubreuil on the cover of the Gause 1905 catalogue. Unfortunately, it's one of those catalogue illustrations which aren't really an accurate depiction but probably have some semblance of truth. It actually looks half-way between the 1906 photo and the currently grown FD.
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Reply #14 of 42 posted 28 MAY by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. I have added the reference. Is the spelling in the original text Francis or Francois?
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Reply #15 of 42 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
Your welcome. In the original text it is spelt "Francois".
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Reply #38 of 42 posted 29 AUG by HubertG
I have said previously that I did not think 'Princess Bonnie' is a contender for the real identity of FD, but this photograph of Princess Bonnie in the 1916 catalogue of Dingee & Conard (the originators) has me thinking twice about it. The blooms do look cupped, and the petals have that same flattish appearance, with the little indent on the petal edges, giving them a somewhat heart shaped look. And Princess Bonnie was very fragrant. What do others think? The photo gives a good view of the buds too. Note that one stem seems to have a small cluster of three buds.
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Reply #39 of 42 posted 29 AUG by Margaret Furness
Not sure about the receptacle shape, but it's close.
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Reply #40 of 42 posted 30 AUG by HubertG
The problem is that this photo doesn't really look a lot like other depictions of Princess Bonnie, and I wonder if it's a catalogue photo mix up.
Princess Bonnie's pedigree is a tea x (probably triploid) HT, so that could give a fertile diploid rose (as 'FD' does sets hips), so that would make sense. Additionally PB's pollen parent 'William Francis Bennett' does look a bit like 'FD' regarding the blooms (at least in the only photo posted here). However PBonnie is usually described as exceptionally free flowering, and I'm not sure if that could be said about 'FD'.

Also 'Admiral Schley' could be another possible contender although I don't know that they had that rose at Sangerhausen. It certainly isn't mentioned in the Rosen-Zeitung.
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Reply #41 of 42 posted 30 AUG by HubertG
The rose on the left looks as if it has barely 3-4 rows of petals.
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Reply #42 of 42 posted 5 OCT by HubertG
I think it's probably pretty safe to scrap 'Marion Dingee' as a possibility for the true identity of Francis Dubreuil. The 1907 newspaper article from the Leader says it's almost devoid of fragrance, and this supports the early catalogue descriptions which seem to simply omit any reference to fragrance.
From the article:
"Deep red colors are rare among roses of the tea scented class, so rare, in fact, that they may scarcely be said to exist, as the two most, strongly marked examples, Marion Dingee and Princesse de Sagan, are almost devoid of the characteristic fragrance, but though probably containing Bengal or China rose blood, are classed as teas, and are otherwise quite typical in habit, growth and constant profusion of bloom."
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Reply #16 of 42 posted 31 MAY by Plazbo
I'm probably being dumb but are you calling it "Not Francis Dubreuil" because we aren't sure what is being sold in Australia is actually Barcelona? Or is it fairly certain it is Barcelona?

Just a little confused about whether I should be running it through my diploid lines or pairing it with something like Rhapsody In Blue instead...I'm assuming the latter based on a lot of comments on here.
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Reply #17 of 42 posted 31 MAY by HubertG
Plazbo, I'm confused too haha. Check out "David Martin's No41" which is the most likely candidate for the 1932 'Barcelona' (in fact in my opinion there is no reason to doubt that it is Barcelona).
Somehow the rose distributed as Francis Dubreuil had been confused for Barcelona in the US hence it wasn't thought to be FD, and so has become NotFD. Anyway, that's my take on it in a nutshell anyway.
I'm sure one of the Tealadies could expand on this.

I still think that it could be the original Francis Dubreuil. As I've mentioned previously, even though it has some atypical tea characteristics, it doesn't easily fall into another class either. It does match early descriptions especially the rounded regularly arranged velvety petals, and the dark bluish-green foliage. And it did come from Sangerhausen labelled as Francis Dubreuil. True, the bloom doesn't look a lot like the 1906 photo, but some of the photos here do show recurving petal edges. It certainly (to my mind) doesn't seem anything like what one would expect a Hybrid Tea given commercial release in the 1930's to be, so isn't Barcelona.

As to its ploidy, who knows? The original FD would most likely to have come through one of those early red teas like Duchess of Edinburgh which was introduced as a tea but clearly had hybrid characteristics, perhaps self pollinated and retaining enough Tea characteristics but developing the velvety red blooms. So if it was say a self pollination of a triploid that occasionally set hips, it could end up being a diploid or a tetraploid. This is just my speculation of course. Just for comparison of a similar possible breeding, look at 'Princess Bonnie' which is from a {T x (T x HP)} cross.
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Reply #18 of 42 posted 31 MAY by Margaret Furness
Sangerhausen has been through two world wars, and every big collection or garden or nursery has mislabels. Especially if the labels are small enough for the public to move around. We kept updating the labels at Renmark as new information came in, but there are still some I'm uneasy about or would change if it was worth spending more there at present. For example, what we have as Excellenz von Schubert and Merveille des Rouges are pretty clearly incorrect.
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Reply #19 of 42 posted 8 JUN by HubertG
I wonder if 'Marion Dingee' might be a possibilty for this rose. There are plenty of references online but I haven't come across a reference to its fragrance. The illustrations suggest a cupped shape and often the references describe a very dark colour. Here's the coloured plate for 'Marion Dingee' from Dingee's 1892 catalogue. Dingee's give the breeding as 'Comtesse de Casserta' x 'Duchess of Edinburgh'.
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Reply #20 of 42 posted 8 JUN by Patricia Routley
You might be on to something HubertG. The bloom shape is about right, the colour is about right, the "short compact" growth is about right.
We have:
1889 Marion Dingee (Early illustrations show a shorter bloom)
1894 Francis Dubreuil (Early illustrations, 1896 and 1906, show a taller bloom)
I'll search for 'Marion Dingee' in Australia later in the day.
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Reply #21 of 42 posted 8 JUN by HubertG
What's a bit out of place though is the lack of fragrance in the descriptions. Dingee's other red Tea was Princess Bonnie which they lauded as one of the sweetest scented roses available. One would think to promote their own rose (in Marion Dingee), if it had a good fragrance, they would at least mention its scent when it was introduced. I don't think Princess Bonnie is a contender from early references and illustrations, by the way.

It is interesting however to compare the buds in the coloured illustration I posted above with the photo Tomartyr posted on 30 Nov 2011, photo Id 187697.
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Reply #22 of 42 posted 9 JUN by billy teabag
A very quick response before a more considered one.
Reliable early Australian references to Francis Dubreuil tell us this was one of the big Teas. From memory, the 1930s reference to roses in NSW tells us it was 9 feet tall.
Even in the best conditions, with the best care and attention, the rose sold as Francis Dubreuil struggles to reach half that height.
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Reply #23 of 42 posted 9 JUN by Patricia Routley
In 1893 (four years after 'Marion Dingee' was introduced,) it was said to have a "short compact growth". The 1930s was about 60 years later. I hope you will share some of those references Billy. I probably have them, but I added 15 refs to 'Marion Dingee' yesterday and must move on. (My Francis Dubreuil' manages to make about 2 feet.)
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Reply #24 of 42 posted 10 JUN by billy teabag
The ref I was remembering is this one from George Knight's 1931 article Tea Roses in New South Wales which has already been added:
"What an opportunity is offered to some of the authorities in connection with the public gardens of the State to plant out some of the most vigorous of these old tea Roses and grow them into large shrubs. There is no more striking feature than to see a Rose bush eight or nine feet high, built in proportion and covered in bloom. I would suggest as some of the most suitable for this purpose : Corallina, Mme Charles, Dr. Grill, Francois Dubreuil, Mdlle. Christine de Noue and Mrs Dunlop Best. The latter makes a nice bush up to six feet. p104 Australian Rose Annual 1931.

The "Not Francis Dubreuil" we used to have also only managed about 2'6" in height and width before losing the will to live.
To my eye it looks like a hybrid of a China rose and something HP-ish.

I'll check to see whether I have anything else on my computer that hasn't been added to HMF and will have a look on Trove.
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Reply #25 of 42 posted 10 JUN by HubertG
Maybe another possibility to consider is 'Friedrichsruh' from 1907. It was a cross from 'Princesse de Bearn' x 'Francis Dubreuil' and appeared to be a shorter-growing bushy rose, Sangerhausen had it in their collection and gave it a 7/10 for fragrance. That's assuming of course that the rose grown as 'Friedrichsruh' at Sangerhausen now is incorrect. And despite being classed as a Hybrid Tea it had short stems and nodding flowers.
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Reply #26 of 42 posted 10 JUN by billy teabag
Worth a closer look, I think, HubertG. It's not uncommon to see mixups between roses in large collections that are close alphabetically.
Short stems and nodding flowers on a shorter plant is a good start.
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Reply #27 of 42 posted 11 JUN by HubertG
That's a good point Billy. Not only is there the possibility of them being confused if they looked similar but also as their names both start with FR, a mixup could have occurred in the cataloguing. Possibly.
There are quite a few references for 'Friedrichsruh' in the Rosen-Zeitung. One describes 'Souvenir de Clos Vougeot' as in the style of a paeony "like Friedrichsruh". I'm not sure how paeony-like FD is. Perhaps a bit.
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Reply #28 of 42 posted 13 JUN by Patricia Routley
I've added a few more refs for 'Friedrichsruh'.
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Reply #29 of 42 posted 13 JUN by true-blue
Hubert, sorry to barge in.
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest.

However, I doubt if Francis Dubreuil was a fragrant rose. If you check the original advertisement in Journal des roses, thee's no mention of that:
Here is the text, translated from the original:

Mr. F. Dubreuil, rose-grower, 146, route de Grenoble, of Montplaisir-Lyon has two new roses for sale; the descriptions follow:
Francis Dubreuil (Tea). — A robuste and very remontant shrub, the flower is very full, of an admirable form, upright on rigid peduncles at the tips of the canes, with thick petals, very regularly rounded, in gracefully developed curves of a cup with softened contours, opening with extreme ease, of a color absolutely novel amongst the Teas, crimson red, velvety purple with vivid cherry-amaranth highlights, the bud is an elongated ovoid shape of great beauty.
Due to the perfection of its form and the intensity of its purple and amaranth hues, this variety constitutes the most beautiful red Tea Rose known
This variety has been awarded: 1) the silver medal of the Society of Practical Horticulture of the Rhône; 2) a prize at the Universal Exposition at Lyon, concourse of Jue 1894; 3) a first-class certificate from the Lyonnaise Horticultural Association.
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Reply #30 of 42 posted 14 JUN by HubertG
True-blue, no need to apologise. :-) The omission of the description of a fragrance when any rose is introduced is rather suspicious of it not having much scent. However an omission doesn't necessarily mean it didn't have a fragrance. There are other references which say it was fragrant, but when they come from catalogues trying to sell stock, you need to be a bit discerning, I suppose, as to whether they are exaggerations. The early apple fragrance description intrigues me.

Patricia, wow, you've been busy adding to 'Friedrichsruh'! Last I looked there were only half a dozen or so references. I want to add some more from the Rosen-Zeitung but maybe not till the weekend. One describes the buds and leaves in detail (including a bud photo), another says how it is mildew-free and the fragrance is intoxicating and emits particularly after rain. The mildew-free description is interesting because the few photos here of 'Friedrichsruh' from Sangerhausen show a somewhat mildew affected plant! (well it looks that way to me).

What's interesting about 'Friedrichsruh' is that it is a child of 'Francis Dubreuil'. If only we had an inexpensive genetic test to find out how much two roses are related to each other!
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Reply #31 of 42 posted 15 JUN by true-blue
Hubert, if memory serves me well, none of the French sources, noted FD as fragrant, hence my conclusion that is most probably not fragrance worthy, hence my conclusion.
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Reply #32 of 42 posted 28 JUL by HubertG
I just came across this one: "Francois Menard" a velvety crimson globular tea from 1892.
Sangerhausen's description: "
Ménard, François (tea) Tesnier 1892; crimson, centre velvety cherry, very large, very double, globular, floriferous, thick smooth branches, growth 6/10, bushy, short."

I haven't researched it at all yet - no initial mention of fragrance either - but I thought it might be interesting to look at it as a contender for "Francis Dubreuil" considering too they are both a Francois (well nearly).
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Reply #33 of 42 posted 29 JUL by HubertG
Here's my translation of the description of Francois Menard in the Rosen-Zeitung (from German, which would have been originally from French):

François Ménard (Tea). Shrub low, very vigorous, bushy, fairly smooth and thick-wooded, beautiful dark green foliage; bud very thick on a firm stem, flower very large, very double, globular, beautifully held; beautiful crimson red, centre cherry red blending to velvety crimson, choice, floriferous. (originates from a seedling).

Not sure about the "smooth" wood, if it fits "FD", and although the colour is crimson, that might not necessarily be a dark crimson. No mention of fragrance.
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Reply #34 of 42 posted 29 JUL by true-blue
Hubert, I sifted through my Journal des Roses/Amis des Rose, couldn't find anything tangible.
I checked the L'Haÿ's site, nada.

I found this in Page 42 of Dingee and Conard, 1898

Francois Menard.—New, crimson red, passing to purple.
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Reply #35 of 42 posted 29 JUL by true-blue
I found this to in
Journal of Horticulture and Practical Gardening, Volume 26, page 288, March 22, 1892


New French roses
....
15, François Ménard (Tesnier) - Crimson red, centre cherry red, passing into velvety crimson. Very large, very full, globular firm stem.

Link is : https://books.google.ca/books?id=U_xIAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA238&lpg=PA238&dq=rose+%22Francois+Ménard%22&source=bl&ots=_Dil-Ncm9U&sig=W0tv7tp-kSoSpN2ry0yeA73z0Sw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWjvDUzsTcAhUvVt8KHTY5Ajo4ChDoATAAegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=rose%20%22Francois%20Ménard%22&f=false
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Reply #36 of 42 posted 30 JUL by HubertG
True-Blue It looks like Francois Menard never really caught on anywhere. Of course if the rose sold as Francis Dubreuil came from Sangerhausen, it could be any obscure rose from that collection, so doesn't necessarily rule out Francois Menard, but some aspects of FM seem to fit and others don't. If only 'Marion Dingee' came with a description of scent...
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Reply #37 of 42 posted 6 AUG by HubertG
Here's another contender to consider: Mme. Rivoy. Dingees class it among their Tea Roses in 1897 but say it is an old variety and has HP characteristics. From their catalogue:

"MADAME RIVOY.* Looks like a Hybrid Perpetual in Flower and Foliage. Is Hardy. In this grand old variety we have a Rose of no ordinary excellence. It is entitled to a place among Ever-blooming Roses equal to that which General Jacqueminot takes among Hybrid Perpetuals. Indeed it is not unlike a Hybrid Perpetual in the extra-large, full and loosely-formed double flowers, enchanting fragrance, intensity of color, large handsome foliage, and extreme vigor of growth ; it is hardy with slight protection, a quick, constant and profuse bloomer, and for outdoor culture cannot be excelled by any Rose of its color. The flowers are produced in wonderful abundance upon long stiff stems, and in color may be described as a rich crimson scarlet; very bright and effective. We doubt if any of our customers have ever seen this lovely Rose, and it is for their benefit, that all may secure one of the finest and best Roses grown, that we call special attention to it by our truthful illustration."

They include an illustration which isn't totally incompatible with "FD".
I don't know if it was in the Sangerhausen collection.
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most recent 6 JUL SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 12 FEB 16 by true-blue
Soupert & Notting 1909-10 catalogue p.23

Francis Dubreuil (Dubreuil 1895) cramoisi pourpré velouté, reflets cerise et amarante, fl.tr.gr......vig.
(crimson, velvet purple, cherry and amaranth reflexes, very big flower, vigorous.)
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Reply #1 of 16 posted 13 FEB 16 by Patricia Routley
Thank you
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Reply #2 of 16 posted 10 JUN by scvirginia
Bob, you wonderful Canadian...

Is there any possibility that you could get your hands (or eyes) on a copy of the 1914 Annual of the Rose Society of Ontario? There is a color photo of a bouquet containing 'Francis Dubreuil' along with four other roses.

There is an online scan at Biodiversity Heritage Library, but the photo is blurry and leaves much to be desired.

I hope you are well,
Virginia
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Reply #3 of 16 posted 13 JUN by true-blue
Wow what a find!

Unfortunately I can't have any access to that.

But if it's any consolation, I doubt if the original copy would be any better.
I tried to extract the image but it's blurry as you said....
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Reply #4 of 16 posted 13 JUN by scvirginia
Thanks, Bob- I thought you might have a "magic source", so I delayed posted that photo until I knew you didn't. You're probably right that the photo's likely to be blurry in all of the annuals.

I think I've mentioned this before, but my favorite candidate for the real 'Francis Dubreuil' is the Aussie foundling, "Kombacy Elyena". A lot of similarities (at least I think so), including some controversy over fragrance.

Cheers,
Virginia
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Reply #5 of 16 posted 13 JUN by true-blue
No more magic source.

I checked Kombacy Elyena. Intriguing rose, though the size doesn't seem to correspond to the six feet or more height, if memory serves me right....
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Reply #6 of 16 posted 14 JUN by Margaret Furness
I've added a comment under "K E".
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Reply #7 of 16 posted 14 JUN by billy teabag
Which of these roses do you think is 'Francis Dubreuil', and which 'General MacArthur'?
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Reply #8 of 16 posted 14 JUN by HubertG
I think 'Francis Dubreuil' is the sole dark red rose at the bottom. The flower amongst the white ones could be General MacArthur, or perhaps a Chatenay which is a bit in shadow as it looks a bit dark pink and scrolled, but I don't think it's FD. It would be a hand coloured photo, so the value is in the form more so than the colour. What do others think?
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Reply #9 of 16 posted 14 JUN by billy teabag
That's my opinion also. I think the only 'Francis Dubreuiul' bloom is the lower, deeper coloured one.
General MacArthur tends to open like the red rose on the right, with the central petals standing up while the outer petals reflex so that for a time there is this separation between the central and outer petals.
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Reply #10 of 16 posted 14 JUN by scvirginia
from The 1914 Annual of the Rose Society of Ontario, p. 31:
"The Lumiere Plates
The heartiest thanks of the Society are due to Sir Edmund Osier, M.P., and to Mr. J. T. Moore of Moore Park, for their great kindness in allowing Mr. Freemantle, who prepared the slides, to show the lovely lumieres or sun-taken color photographs of flowers grown by Mr. Allan in Sir Edmund's conservatory at Craigleigh, and of roses grown by Mr. Bryson at Moore Park. They elicited the warmest admiration and were shown by request on more than one occasion. By the kindness and generosity of Mr. Moore, four of those in his possession appear in this Annual. This intricate and wonderful process was exemplified in its highest development by Mr. Freemantle's skill and the flowers were most realistic in the truth of their colors, painted by Nature herself. We have gone far in photographing in natural colors, and Mr. Freemantle has brought the art to something undreamed of only a few years ago."

About Lumieres: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autochrome_Lumière

These were color photographs, and it seems that the color reproduction was very good. There may have been some color "touch-ups" by the photo-engravers for the purpose of publication, however.

I agree that the dark red bloom near the bottom is 'Francis Dubreuil', and am on the fence about the bloom surrounded (and obscured) by the white roses.

Virginia
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Reply #11 of 16 posted 14 JUN by HubertG
That's fascinating about the Lumiere slides. Imagine if there were still more of those slides in the possession of one of the families of those mentioned, and there was a cache of Francis Dubreuil ones.
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Reply #12 of 16 posted 5 JUL by HubertG
I've found and posted a couple of illustrations of 'Francis Dubreuil' from the Dingee catalogues.
Here's the description from the 1898 'New Guide to Rose Culture' which accompanies the illustration.

"Novelties in Roses.
... Francois Dubreuil. This is a grand new variety of great merit. The flowers are unusually large, double and full, and in color are deep vivid crimson, with rich velvety shadings. The buds are large, long and pointed; splendid for cutting. It is a strong, vigorous grower and a free continuous bloomer. Fine for open-ground work."
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Reply #13 of 16 posted 5 JUL by true-blue
It's funny how the drawings are so different......
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Reply #14 of 16 posted 5 JUL by true-blue
Hubert, I enlarged your uploaded photos. Hope you don't mind. Great job!
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Reply #15 of 16 posted 6 JUL by HubertG
True-Blue, no not at all, looks good. Just looking at these Dingee catalogue illustrations the consistent characteristic is the slightly recurving petal edges; and they aren't as long-budded as the Rosen-Zeitung painting makes out. This recurving matches the Garden Illustrated 1906 photo, but less so the Betten engraving. I've come to appreciate these hokey little catalogue drawings more and more, because even if they aren't 'naturalistic', they are useful if you look at them in context and compare them to other illustrations of the same type.
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Reply #16 of 16 posted 6 JUL by true-blue
Thanks for pointing that out to me. I can finally see :-)
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