HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
John Hook
most recent 2 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 27 MAY 15 by John Hook
The closest rose description I've found so far is 'Snowstorm' by one of the 'Pauls' at Waltham cross
Reply #1 of 1 posted 2 days ago by Michael Garhart
Looks like a better idea than Cascadia, so far.
most recent 22 AUG SHOW ALL
Initial post 24 NOV 09 by Maurizio Usai
I'm pretty convinced that this rose is in fact 'Maman Cochet'.
Reply #1 of 14 posted 26 NOV 09 by billy teabag
From the photos I've seen of this rose, I agree with you.
Is there any reason it cannot be Maman Cochet?
Reply #2 of 14 posted 26 NOV 09 by Maurizio Usai
Hi Billy, John Hook told me that "Bryan Freidel P.T." should be 'Auguste Comte', and you can see on HMF what I think about this one. Apart from personal observations, I think that it's easier that, being BFPT a USA found Rose, it's likely to be a variety pretty common in cultivation like 'Maman Cochet', than a variety unknown in cultivation like A.C.
Note that true 'Maman Cochet' is not in commerce (except than in John's Roseraie du Désert) in Europe, as every nurseryman grows under this name (but not this only one) the Rose I've posted in the 'Auguste Comte' page.

I've made a comparison of BFPT in my garden, using both 'White Maman Cochet' and 'Clg. White Maman Cochet*' and every detail of these Roses seems to be identical to 'Bryan Freidel'.
* I have to remark that this Rose came to me as 'Chromathella' - 'Cloth of Gold'.

Reply #3 of 14 posted 27 NOV 09 by billy teabag
These things happen! Was it a simple case of an error in labelling or misidentification?
“The rose thought to be Auguste Comte” over here can sometimes look so much like ‘Maman Cochet’. At other times, the differences are very marked.
(In Oz it's been found in a number of places and has the study names "Not Mme Hoste", "Hay Valley Red Tea", "Nantawarra Pink" and there are probably more. Now that we know it better, we are recognising it in more and more places. It seems to be one of the more common surviving roses in cemeteries and the sites of old gardens.) It makes sense that the two roses should be similar – both roses are the result of ‘Marie van Houtte’ x ‘Mme Lambard’.

If I list the similarities and differences noticed in my garden will you check whether they match what you have seen in your plants?

Pedicel – ‘Maman Cochet’ has a basically smooth pedicel - the undercarriage of the bloom has a clean, smooth appearance. "The rose thought to be Auguste Comte" can have a smooth pedicel but it is more often glandular - sometimes very glandular.

Bloom colour - both roses range in colour and at times they are hard to tell apart, but when "?Auguste Comte" produces the darker coloured blooms with striking, intense carmine-red on the outer petals and the petal edges, they are not like anything seen on ‘Maman Cochet’. (At the moment, our plants are producing very dark flowers – from a distance they look dark carmine – I cannot see any cream).

Foliage – Tea foliage can vary so much depending on climate, season and conditions and one always has to be careful saying anything is 'typical' but...... ‘Maman Cochet’ often has leaves that look 'quilted' because of the impressed veins and "?Auguste Comte" tends to have darker leaves with less impressed veins, often a denser appearance and a more pronounced point to the leaflet.

At certain times of the year "?Auguste Comte" will appear to set hips - some of them quite large - but if they are cut open, to date there have been no seeds - they are like the 'hips' formed by ‘Rosette Delizy’ - just full of fibrous material. I haven't seen these 'hips' forming on ‘Maman Cochet’.

One of the photos of “Bryan Freidel Pink Tea” on HMF shows a bud with a fresh green square-based receptacle and this is one of the things so often (but not always! – sometimes they have rounded bases) seen on ‘Maman Cochet’. (Noelene Drage says it reminds her of a ‘saucepan on a stick’ – an association that sticks in my mind.)

Do these obs. mirror what you have found?

I hope it can be sorted out and that the correct 'Maman Cochet' will find its way into mainstream commerce over there. It is such a beautiful rose and incredibly hard working in hot climates.
It’s not easy deciding what’s what, especially when plants are young and capricious. “Nantawarra Pink” came to us as a matchstick with roots and as it slowly grew I thought it was ‘Maman Cochet’ and we were going to change the study name to “Nantawarra Cochet”. Then it grew some more and we realised that it was doing things that ‘Maman Cochet’ didn’t do and that it was in fact the same as “Not Mme Hoste” and was probably ‘Auguste Comte’.
All good fun.

Do you grow the climbing form of 'White Maman Cochet'? Once established it is one of the most beautiful roses I know.
Reply #4 of 14 posted 27 NOV 09 by Maurizio Usai
Hello Billy,
the Rose in commerce in Europe as 'Chromathella' IS, in fact, the climbing form of 'White Maman Cochet', and I have it -still young- in my garden.
I guess John has now the rightly named 'Chromatella', and I hope to have it soon in my garden :o)

I've checked your list for similarities, and I have to agree with every point of your list.
I have to add the following, using 'White Maman Cochet' to compare:

Bloom: '?Auguste Comte' have smaller flowers than 'White Maman Cochet', much more "globular" at the base, near the receptacle (I don't know how to correctly explain this in english, sorry). The bud is also less elongated, and petals have a different way to roll at the edges. In my climate, blooms on "?Auguste Comte" are easily scorched* by the sun, even in Spring: this never happens to "Bryan Friedel PT" or 'White Maman Cochet', even in August. (* unfortunately, many Teas, like 'Archiduc Joseph-Monsieur Tillier', are easily burnt in my climate).

I'm going to add some new pictures, both for 'Bryan Friedel Pink Tea" and "?Auguste Comte" - I hope they would be helpful.
Reply #5 of 14 posted 29 NOV 09 by billy teabag
Thanks Maurizio - your description of the differences in bloom form are very clear and they match the roses we have here.
"?Auguste Comte" has produced a lot of blooms with unusually large receptacles this spring - some are so large they have split. Does this ever happen with yours? Spring has been milder than usual, with cooler spells and some cold nights so the swelling and splitting may have happened because the blooms have been developing more slowly than usual.
I planted the climbing form of Maman Cochet the other day. It's just a small cutting-grown plant at the moment so looking forward to seeing it grow up. I saw a well established one the other day - it had made its way high into some trees and those gorgeous nodding blooms were looking so good.
Reply #14 of 14 posted 22 AUG by Nastarana
Hardy to zone 4? A tea rose? If that is the case, I want one now.
Reply #6 of 14 posted 16 JUN 13 by John Hook
Helen Good???
Reply #7 of 14 posted 30 AUG 16 by Margaret Furness
Maman Cochet is evergreen in zone 9b. Helen Good has been promising for "Bishop's Lodge Jane Isabella Linton" but "BL JIL" is deciduous in zone 9b. Would someone check the Bryan Friedel rose in winter please.
Reply #8 of 14 posted 30 AUG 16 by John Hook
"BL JIL" , Bryan Friedel and Maman Cochet aren't synonymous in my opinion as we are growing all three
Reply #9 of 14 posted 30 AUG 16 by Margaret Furness
Thank you: we knew Maman Cochet was different from "BL JIL" but don't have "Bryan Friedel" here.
Reply #10 of 14 posted 21 AUG by HubertG
Just from reading descriptions and comments, and looking at all the photos here, I think 'Helen Good' is probably the most likely candidate for this rose, in my humble opinion.
Reply #11 of 14 posted 21 AUG by John Hook
We have this rose on our website as Helen Good with description
Reply #12 of 14 posted 21 AUG by Margaret Furness
I'd hoped that whether or not a rose was deciduous would help identification, but losing leaves in winter has turned out to be inconsistent across different gardens in similar weather zones.
Reply #13 of 14 posted 21 AUG by HubertG
Ah good, John! Reading a lot of the early catalogues it was pretty popular.
most recent 23 JUL SHOW ALL
Initial post 23 JUL 14 by John Hook
Gloire de Lawrencianas 1837 ('Gloire des Lawrence' ) qui est probablement l'actuel << Oakington Ruby >>

Jan Balis
Bruxelles 1966
page 53
Reply #1 of 1 posted 23 JUL by Patricia Routley
Thank you once again John. This is most interesting and I have added this refefence to 'Gloire des Lawrencianas' and also to 'Oakington Ruby' - as well as to the Notes for "Ebenezer Cemetery Miniature China".
most recent 23 JUL HIDE POSTS
Initial post 22 JUL by John Hook
Gloire des Lawrenceeanas - deep, brilliant crimson, a beautiful little rose (actual spelling)

A descriptive Catalogue of Selected Roses - Thomas Rivers 1851
Reply #1 of 1 posted 23 JUL by Patricia Routley
Thank you John. Reference added.
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